GIs Told to Bring Afghans to Jesus

Originally posted by jjkenobi
I for one don't have a problem with a military chaplain doing this. The chaplain is not their commanding officer. You are acting as if the battallion commander or two star general issued the orders and special missions or something.

You don't think Muslim in Afghan are trying to convert our soldiers to Islam?

Exactly. The JOB of a Chaplain, Pastor, Minister, or Priest, ALL of whom are "Holy Servants of God", is to spread the word and teachings of which they preach. A Chaplain is a religious counsel, and therefore they have every right to promote religious views.

The EXACT same thing goes on in Mosques every Friday, and yet, where is the outcry over that? Where is the OP's outcry of Muslims extremists chanting Islamic Holy prayers whilst cutting the head off of an individual? What of the increase in Madrassas the World over, or the mass proliferations of Mosques within our Western Nations?

I say that those who abhor the practices of this Chaplain are hypocrites, unless you can prove yourself to be otherwise.


BTW, for those of you who fail to have any knowledge whatsoever of either religion, one of the best ways to build relationships is to openly discuss our religious differences and similarities. I have done this on multiple occasions with my Muslim/Jewish friends, and it has actually lead towards stronger friendships, and an amazing amount of understanding between our two beliefs. Obviously however, this does not apply to Extremists, as they simply need to be eradicated.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thank you freind you make your name's sake ghost proud. Our forefathers were not religious men but diests and athiests and agnostics by and large.

You obviously lack even the most basic of understanding behind just who and what our Founding Fathers were. Just because you remain a non-religious individual, do not attempt to make our Founders fit your profile for both self-comfort and support purposes.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I find this story to be uniquely disturbing. In no small part because it is just one more example of how far from the constitutional principals of separation of church and state that our government has gotten too.

You should really read the U.S. Constitution, which is what I'm presuming you're referring to. This is what it has to say on the matter.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I see no attempt by Congress to make a law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Do you?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
This is on military.com????????????????????????

military.com is a govt. owned site no?

Nope. Try again.

www.networksolutions.com...

Registrant:
Military Advantage Inc.
799 Market Street, Suite 700
San Francisco, CA 94103
US

Domain Name: MILITARY.COM

Administrative Contact :
Monster Worldwide, Inc.
[email protected]
5 Clock Tower Place, Suite 500
Maynard, MA 01754
US
Phone: 978 461 8000
Fax: 978 461 8100

Technical Contact :
Monster Worldwide, Inc.
[email protected]
5 Clock Tower Place, Suite 500
Maynard, MA 01754
US
Phone: 978 461 8000
Fax: 978 461 8100

[edit on 5/5/09 by Ferris.Bueller.II]

I see no problem with spreading Jesus's message of good will towards all man kind, however respecting others beliefs and boundaries is an important part of that.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thank you freind you make your name's sake ghost proud. Our forefathers were not religious men but diests and athiests and agnostics by and large.

You obviously lack even the most basic of understanding behind just who and what our Founding Fathers were. Just because you remain a non-religious individual, do not attempt to make our Founders fit your profile for both self-comfort and support purposes.

My friend, please feel free to post proof to the contrary. Attacking me for knowing history doesn't change history.

You are simply putting forth a mere oppinion with out any thing to substantiate beyond what you would like to assert I don't know.

Cite a credible book, or article from historians, a well referenced web site that is dedicated to history and not religion, and you won't be just cooking, you will be cooking with gas.

Educate me if you can...my mind is always open to learning. You want to change my mind, my mind is changeable. I learn new things every day. So please rather than tell me what I don't know, show me how you learned what you know, and let me and others learn through it if it is a valid and credible source.

The Christian religion might be faith based. History and the study of it isn't.

Where's the beef?

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


How about you read the Constitution while I read the Bill of Rights?

Article VI

All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Officers of the miliarty hold an office...Enlisted Soldiers hold a position of Public Trust under the United States...

The Chaplain in his service gave these men a test...while wearing a government uniform and that my friend violates as well...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...I wonder how the Chaplain came by his Military Uniform then as he serves under the Military Code of Justice

These are the official Ethics:

Guiding principles
We are faithful to our individual religious traditions and practices.

We respect the right of others to hold spiritual beliefs and religious practices different from our own

We cooperate and collaborate in ministry.

We are committed to the highest standards of morality and personal integrity.

We are committed to professionalism in the performance of duty.




This is the Private Originization of Military Chaplains Code

Code of Ethics
From the National Conference on Ministry to the Armed Forces (NCMAF)[1], a private organization that United States Military Chaplains (active or retired) can join. The code is not official government policy.

I will hold in trust the traditions and practices of my religious body.

I will carefully adhere to whatever direction may be conveyed to me by my endorsing body for maintenance of my endorsement.

I understand as a chaplain in the United States Armed Forces that I will function in a pluralistic environment with chaplains of other religious bodies to provide for ministry to all military personnel and their families entrusted to my care.

I will seek to provide for pastoral care and ministry to persons of religious bodies other than my own within my area of responsibility with the same investment of myself as I give to members of my own religious body.

I will work collegially with chaplains of religious bodies other than my own as together we seek to provide as full a ministry as possible to our people.
I will respect the beliefs and traditions of my colleagues and those to whom I minister.

When conducting services of worship that include persons of other than my religious body, I will draw upon those beliefs, principles, and practices that we have in common.

I will, if in a supervisory position, respect the practices and beliefs of each chaplain I supervise and exercise care not to require of them any service or practice that would be in violation of the faith practices of their particular religious body.

I will seek to support all colleagues in ministry by building constructive relationships wherever I serve, both with the staff where I work and with colleagues throughout the military environment.

I will maintain a disciplined ministry in such ways as keeping hours of prayer and devotion, endeavoring to maintain wholesome family relationships and regularly engaging in educational and recreational activities for professional and personal development.

I will seek to maintain good health habits.

I will recognize that my obligation is to provide for the free exercise of religion for ministry to all members of the military services, their families and other authorized personnel.

When on active duty, I will only accept added responsibility in civilian ministry if it does not interfere with the overall effectiveness of my primary military ministry.

I will defend my colleagues against unfair discrimination on the basis of gender, race, religion or national origin.

I will hold in confidence any privileged communication received by me during the conduct of my ministry.

I will not disclose confidential communications in private or in public.
I will not proselytize from other religious bodies, but I retain the right to evangelize those who are not affiliated.

I will show personal love for God in my life and ministry, as I strive together with my colleagues to preserve the dignity, maintain the discipline and promote the integrity of the profession to which we have been called.

I recognize the special power afforded me by my ministerial office.
I will never use that power in ways that violate the personhood of another human being, religiously, emotionally or sexually.

I will use my pastoral office only for that which is best for the persons under my ministry.

That my friend is how Chaplains themselves claim they are to behave.

You count all the codes of conduct this Chaplian broke...

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen


Lets ask a Military Chaplain that question instead of a civilian shall we and see what they say...

Exactly. The JOB of a Chaplain, Pastor, Minister, or Priest, ALL of whom are "Holy Servants of God", is to spread the word and teachings of which they preach. A Chaplain is a religious counsel, and therefore they have every right to promote religious views.

In other words, my primary duty as a military chaplain is to insure that all of the soldiers under my care are given the necessary time, space, materials, and freedom to practice their religion. It is not to proselytize, to convert people to my faith, or to hinder those who hold a faith other than my own. It is to insure that I help soldiers to explore and connect deeper with the religious faith they are called to, be it Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Atheism, Humanism, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism, or anything else.

Source Celestial Lands a Christian Web Site

There are several articles written by Military Chaplains on this site, including the history of Chaplains in the Military...

This really isn't about what you or I think is proper but what the Constitution allows for and what the Uniform Military Code of Justice Allows for...

Meanwhile this is doing nothing to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan with everyone from the President of Afghanistan on down upset over these revelations...not to mention the bad press it is getting through out the Arab and Muslim world...I hope you are prepared to fight them all with your Hockey Stick and Bible, I sure don't want my young adult Children having to fight them because of this affront to their own religion.

If you feel so strongly, you might want to retire from what ever work you do, and contact a Christian Missionary Orginization that works in Afghanistan and go privately do...what you imagine American Military Personnel and American Tax Dollars should be doing.

Originally posted by Walkswithfish
Every Afghan should exchange the teachings of Islam and the perversions therein for the one and only true God and words from his one and only son.

The greatest insult of all is an attack on ones faith.

Anyone else laugh when they read those two sentences together?

... or was it too hypocritical to be funny?



Walkswithfish... you just made "an attack on ones faith."

I'm sure to you it doesn't matter right? So long as it's not YOUR faith.



lol, one and only true god... yeah, cause we must have gotten his name right this time after so many other thousands of attempts. (sarcasm implied).

Listen, your not the first religion to claim to be the "one and only true" religion... they've all been doing that LONG before Christianity was even a thought, and they'll be doing that LONG after Christianity becomes just as much of a joke as all the other ancient religions.



Religious people... love em or hate em... you just can't stop them from blowing each other up.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by johnsky]

reply to post by johnsky


Another missed the point?

There is another in this thread.

What good is the point without an example?

Maybe have another look?

I'm sure the afghans will not see the point either.

This kind of news is quite disturbing.

As mentionned before on the thread; conversion is subject to the death penalty in Islamic countries.

While the situation is critical in Afghanistan in regard of the war, this report is just good as fuel putted on a fire.

I don't know since how long this ''pastoral behaviors'' happened with the US army ? The news are new, but is it a new strategy, a novelty ?????

I find all this extremely badhanded since the war is spreading now in Pakistan. If the US want to expect some success, the last thing that should be perceived by local allies, is ; that they will be converted or to see their country subject to christian conversion.

Not a good idea, a really bad timing for that, or at least a real good timing to make an millitary operation faill on purpose.

Pakistan is about to collapse, and those in power in Islamabad will be seen as helping US crusaders to convert the country to christianity by fighting muslims.

Pakistan is a country composed by 22 tribes, who don't like much ones each others; But they are all Muslims, and that what's unite them.

I point out that Pakistan is a split from India, made on a religious ground, and they will fight united against a religiously motivated agressor.

Those news are very, very bad ones, it could ignite general uprisal in Pakistan and put at very high risk our positions in Afghanistan.

Originally posted by Walkswithfish
reply to post by johnsky

 

Another missed the point?

There is another in this thread.

What good is the point without an example?

Maybe have another look?

I'm sure the afghans will not see the point either.

Correct me if I am wrong but the real point there is...how can he be the one and only True God when his one and only Son by extension could not be a God or True since their is only one?

Thanks friend.

Its fairly obvious that not many people on this thread were ever in the military. As a long-term veteran, who had the chance to experience chaplains in action let me tell you what was going on.

Because some service members are religious, the military provides chaplains to tend to their spiritual needs. Although all of you atheist out there probably can't relate, being in harms way tends to make one a little more 'spiritual' and mindful of the possibility of soon finding the answer to that all-time most important question.

For most soldiers (airmen, marines, sailors) the chaplain is only a minor distraction that really never has any authority or influence over them. That is unless that soldier is already inclined to be religious and seeks out a chaplain. In my humble opinion that is certainly less than 5-10% of the serving members in the US forces.

With that said, some of these people (5-10%) attend bible study classes while deployed. Why? Well, they're lonely, they're scared, they're confused, and they're scared. So it strikes me as quite ignorant or malicious that some of you criticize these soldiers for attending these studies and saying whatever they say among eachother. And that is really what is happening here.

The only realistic possible occassion of a US service member giving a christian bible to a local would be if those persons had developed a relationship and if that local had expressed interest. Any other occassion simply doesn't make sense in the situation that exists in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Soldiers don't go door to door spreading 'god's word' nor do they stand in the town center handing out bibles. Its ridiculous to assert it is so. So apart from the very few instances mentioned above, I find it hard to believe that we will find droves of locals suddenly converted to chrisitanity. One of the biggest factors inhibiting the bible handouts is the fact that most of the two countries are still illiterate. If you really wanted to spread a message better you use picture books.

What these guys in the video really want, is for those christians to spread the word among each other - their fellow soldiers. The ones that are actually talking and living with them every day for a whole god-forsaken year of their life.

And on this religion issue, just for the record, I do not call myself christian, as I believe most that do now a days are hypocrits. From my understanding, Jesus was a devout pacificist, and a true christian would never serve in any army. As for me, I'm more of an old testament kind of guy. I respect you, empathize with you, and forgive you many things , but sometimes a good schwacking is the only thing you will understand.

Which brings me to the last issue several have proclaimed - the western powers 'invasion' and 'occupation' of Iraq and Afghanistan. We all have our opinions and mine is this. The US has every right to be in Afghanistan as the Taliban were supporting Al Qaida and were therefore responsible for attacking us [I do not believe those that think 911 was fabricated by the US government]. Any action aimed at eliminating that government was justified and now, we have a moral obligation to see that a civilized replacement government is in place before leaving. Iraq is a very different story. Here I do believe that certain government entities fabricated information and mislead the American public into the invasion. Its a total mess, and one we should not be in. I wish we could be gone tomorrow. However, for the same moral obligations that we incurred in Afghanistan, we must ensure that a viable civilized government is established before leaving. And I hope and believe that President Obama is doing exactly that right now. There should be no reason why we are still there in 2011.

However the most important thing I want people here to know, is that very few soldiers actually want to be either of these places. They do it as a duty not for some modern colonialism theme.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by Sashromi]

lol this story is a no story, the establishment loves Islam, they are so easily controllable, Christians on the other hand... not so. Who gives a tud anyway, all religions preach to convert get over it.... it's religion a flawed ideology.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


How did the chaplain give a test to these men? Did he disqualify any of them from military service, or any other function of military service or affect their promotion eligibility? No. Anyways, the chaplain was in none of these soldier's chain of command. Your hatred of Christianity is pretty blinding, isn't it?

This was brought up in another thread a few days ago but got little attention. I am just going to put my comment from that one here.


How is this for a one word reaction....OUTRAGE!!!


Trying to convert Muslims to any other faith is a crime in Afghanistan. The fact that the video footage is being broadcast on Al Jazeera guarantees that it will be seen throughout the Muslim world. It is likely to add more credence to the perception that the U.S. is engaging in a war on Islam with neo-crusader forces invading Muslim lands. Former Afghan prime minister Ahmed Shah Ahmedzai told Al Jazeera there must be a "serious investigation," saying, "This is very damaging for diplomatic relations between the two counties." Sayed Aalam Uddin Asser, of the Islamic Front for Peace and Understanding in Kabul, told the network: "It's a national security issue … our constitution says nothing can take place in Afghanistan against Islam. If people come and propaganda other religions which have no followers in Afghanistan [then] it creates problems for the people, for peace, for stability."


This is my first issue with this nonsense! It is a crime in Islamic nations to do this, period.

Second, my tax dollars are not going to support evangelical christian dogma and proselytizing by the armed forces! This is past logical and these guys clearly were breaking military protocol.

Considering the religious right in the good old US of A are the primary supporters of torture how nice they want to shove Jesus down the throats of these people. We will get you saved before we machine gun you down. If you are considered a good source of information, we could do the sinners prayer with you in between waterboarding sessions. Remember this is not new footage.

This should be all over the MSM, but this is the first I have seen or heard of this.

Here is a nice snippet on Bagram

warincontext.org...

Great to be a government paid missionary, see link and video

www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

How did the chaplain give a test to these men? Did he disqualify any of them from military service, or any other function of military service or affect their promotion eligibility? No. Anyways, the chaplain was in none of these soldier's chain of command. Your hatred of Christianity is pretty blinding, isn't it?

Well my friend lets start with if I send my children out on a treasure hunt not only is it a test it's a contest...No religious test shall be given to hold office or a position of public trust...it does not say to gain office...it does not say to loose office it says to hold office or public trust...these men being tested...and extolled to go on to a hunt...a hunt for souls is a test...it is even more so a test...when you are handed Bibles...specially printed...in the two native and relatively obscure native tonques of the Afghani tribes...in a country that you happen to be in under a state of war...who most of the citizens of...are members of a religion...where anyone trying to convert them to another is a serious sin...punishable by death...

Maybe had you actually read the news articles on this rather than play the hate/bait card...but it's all right with me...because Jeremiah was a Bull Frog nonsense you would understand the gravity of such a provocative and dangerous act within a war zone...

Of course Chapter 47 of the Uniform Military Code of Justice prohibits U.S. Military personnel from attempting to convert people of other religions and thankfully commanders confiscated all these specially printed Bibles to prevent these misquided soldiers from putting themselves into harms way by doing such a foolish thing.

I am relatively sure, Jewish, Muslim, agnostic and athiest soldiers would not have appreciated having to put their lives on the line to extract these soldiers from a firefight that errupted because they had been 'tested' to partake in a 'contest' to hand out specially printed Bibles the only people in the world that could read the language of, would just happen to be Muslim Afghanis.

I understand your belief system is special to you and means something to you, but frankly that attitutde being displayed is that no one has a right to not like this...

That my friend is contempt for other people...and contempt is the highest form of hate...

Reading helps...reading the entire thread helps, reading the articles from the links posted on the threads helps...anyone who wants to can in a very short time learn about all the dynamics of this issue, from learned and considerate Christians who understand in certain situations their responsibilities to fellow soldiers, and the Constitution, and their commanders goals, and the nation's goals in a war zone take on precedence over missionary work.

No one is denying your right to worship...no one is denying any soldiers right to worship or believe...what they are denying is the right to while in U.S. Military Uniform stationed in a War Zone to not use that position to attempt to convert people of another faith...when it is done in a way that violates our constitution, the Uniform Military Code of Justice, and the Constitution of Afghanistan Nation (article 36).

Contempt for those principals does not equate to contempt to your principals...is it safe to simply say you hate people with different principals and if you can't force them to adopt yours you imagine it has to do with some contempt for what you believe in...as opposed to just the wisdom that dictates that their is a time and place for everything...

If you want to quit your day job and start a missionary to Afghanistan I will happily contribute monetarily to that, so you as a private citizen can go and violate Afghan Law and Martyr yourself in your religions best traditions if it makes you happy, if you want to witness first hand just what it is you are saying is "no problem".

In the meantime what if the Chaplain had been a Rabbi...which many are, what if the Chaplain had been an Iman...none of which believe in Christ either but share the same Christian G-d and since it is Afghanistan where few people aren't Muslim, a Chaplain Rabbi extolled you a Christian to go out and hand out specially made up Torrahs and seek to actively convert people to Judiasm...

You are welcome to keep trying to hammer this square peg into a round hole that doesn't fit...it doesn't fit...

Read, learn drop the hate/bait...you could start by reading the entire thread and the links that are posted and inform yourself on this topic and then maybe you will have something factual and productive to add to the discussion that isn't geared towards emotional insecurity?

That woudl be great...thanks friend.

reply to post by Sashromi

After revelations that some American soldiers were given Bibles and encouraged to "hunt people for Jesus," the Pentagon on Monday denied allegations that the U.S. military allows its personnel to seek the conversion of Afghans to Christianity. But while the copies of the New Testament translated into Pashtun and jaw-dropping video from Bagram may seem like exceptions that prove the rule of American prohibition on proselytizing by the military, they are just the latest episodes in the disturbing rise in influence of Christian conservatives in the United States armed services.

Perrrspectives.com

The Christian right has been successful in spreading its fundamentalist agenda at US military installations around the world for decades. But the movement's meteoric rise can be traced back to March 2003, the month the U.S. Invaded Iraq.

PublicRecord.org

Moreover, the complaint alleges that on August 7, when Hall received permission by an Army chaplain to organize a meeting of other soldiers who shared his atheist beliefs, his supervisor, Army Major Paul Welborne, broke up the gathering and threatened to retaliate against the soldier by charging him with violating the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The complaint also alleges that Welborne vowed to block Hall's reenlistment in the Army if the atheist group continued to meet - a violation of Hall's First Amendment rights under the Constitution. Welborne is named as a defendant in the lawsuit.

TruthOut.org

Your post was very nicely written my friend...sadly though there is a wealth of lawsuits, and other evidence to the contrary that the United States Military is about 10% harmless Christians simply turning to their G-d during personal darkest hours of war and bloodshed.

I would be curious to know when and where you served in the Military if you don't mind sharing that?

Perhaps this is a developing trend since then?

Perhaps because everyone is not Christian you might have underestimated the numbers of what you contend is a minority.

Some of us see some disturbing un-Constitutional things going on here and are concerned, that this behavior could potentially lengthen and broaden the war and costs more American their lives in the process of that, than need be.

Thanks.

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II

The complaint charges that Hall, who is based at Fort Riley, Kansas, has been forced to "submit to a religious test as a qualification to his post as a soldier in the United States Army," a violation of Article VI, Clause 3 of the Constitution.

Someone else read the Constitution besides me by the way

The lawsuit seeks an injunction against Welborne from further engaging in behavior "that has the effect of establishing compulsory religious practices" and asks that Gates prevent Welborne from interfering with Hall's free speech rights.

Mikey Weinstein, founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an organization that seeks to enforce the law mandating the separation between church and state in the US military, said the lawsuit would be the first of many his group intends to file against the Pentagon.

"This landmark federal litigation is just the first of a galaxy of new lawsuits that will be expeditiously filed against the Pentagon in a concentrated effort to preserve the precious religious liberties guaranteed by our beautiful United States Constitution," Weinstein said Monday. "Today, we are boldly stabbing back against an unconstitutional heart of darkness, a contagion of fundamentalist religious supremacy and triumphalism noxiously dominating the command and control of the technologically most lethal organization ever created by humankind: our honorable and noble United States armed forces."

TruthOut.org

Originally posted by Walkswithfish
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

In other words, a little less Allah and the promise of virgins, among other perversions, and you can be delivered from evil.

Every Afghan should exchange the teachings of Islam and the perversions therein for the one and only true God and words from his one and only son.

The greatest insult of all is an attack on ones faith.

Be careful, very!

Good job - attacking Islam, then saying it's an insult to do so. Do you understand where they're coming from? Imagine Muslims in this country telling you the same about Christianity.

And guess what? Allah IS God. They're the same guy by different names. Jehovah, Yahweh, etc.

Muslims even respect Jesus and say he will come back in the "last days."

A little education goes a long way.

reply to post by reynoldswrapchapeau


You are getting very close to the true intent of my post, though it may require just a bit more deep thought.

Irony and hypocrisy can flow both ways.