GIs Told to Bring Afghans to Jesus

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Nope never at Baghram. I was in Orgun-E now called Camp Harrison. Not to mention I was there in 2004, so lots has changed since then.

The Honorable Doctor-Reverend Obediah J. Krampgasser implores ye to pray for the continued good harvest from the blessed opium fields of Afghanistan. May their production never be as paltry as in the bad old days of the Taliban. Keep on bringin' Jesus to the heathens! In money's name we pray, amen.

(That would be the guy who's a preacher AND CIA agent).

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Walkswithfish

 

Fish don't walk my friend and that dog doesn't hunt well anymore either.

If one walks with fish after having caught them, then indeed one can walk with fish.

Perhaps maybe you should read my post again, maybe you'll catch on.

There is inherent danger in attempting to convert the faithful from one religion to another.

I thought my post would express that.




*gone fishing*

Originally posted by TheBandit795
I thought that we here on ATS were above the type of hate filled posts that I have read here in this thread....

:shk:

Let us all end this NOW. Please take a look at this thread.

We must end the rising "culture of negativity" on ATS...

[edit on 5-5-2009 by TheBandit795]

Thank you friend for sharing that edition to what can be a very heated topic. Mom didn't just tell me to "When in Rome do as the Romans do" but also that the surest way to loose a friend or make enemies is to 'discuss religion, politics or sell them a used car."

Being a bit of a rebel I followed the 'When in Rome do as the Romans do' but alas when into the car business! Go figure?

It is easy for a super charged topic like religion to heat and enflame passions.

I read and posted on the Thread regarding negativity when it first came out a while ago and reread it this morning after another U2U came out reminding people again to refrain from negativity.

I think it would help people if they could learn to seperate the valid issues from being discussed to what the broader issue means to them.

Obviously many people are religious and spiritual and take great faith and comfort in those things that they receive and give to their faith. Yet any orginization be it business, political, religious or philisophical is bound to have some administrational flaws that ultimately the orginization only becomes stronger for honestly and openly addressing and in a lot of ways that is what Constitutional Representative Democracy is about...it is that open hopefully honest process of trying to as respectfully as one can speak to the specific issues rather than glossing them over by trying to justify that which might serve the orginization better to be modified rather than just simply extolling the virtues of the orginization over all as more than adequate excuse for shortcommings and perpetuating short commings.

To me this issue is about ensuring the guidance and protections meant to apply to everyone in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights aren't hijacked and twisted and modified to simply protect and serve just one politically powerful demographic of our diverse society when they are meant to equally protect them all.

Hopefully despite the sometimes too heated rhetoric that cooler thinking and responses can help elliminate or minimize that people will see this is really a Constitutional Issue and not a Religious Issue.

Thanks for weighing in and helping us all do a check up from the neck up.

Originally posted by ice1300
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Nope never at Baghram. I was in Orgun-E now called Camp Harrison. Not to mention I was there in 2004, so lots has changed since then.

Thanks for your service to our Country friend. I am happy to see you are alive and well and hopefully no longer in harms way even though I know you proudly made that voluntary sacrifice and risked that danger nobly for us all.

The article doesn't mention this taking place as a wide spread policy but just at that base during that occurence.

It's nice to know that not every Service Member is not being told this.

It must be chilly up there in the heavenly kingdom. Maybe he's just old fashioned, but wouldn't Jesus rather have a Snuggie?

Originally posted by Walkswithfish

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Walkswithfish

 

Fish don't walk my friend and that dog doesn't hunt well anymore either.

If one walks with fish after having caught them, then indeed one can walk with fish.

Perhaps maybe you should read my post again, maybe you'll catch on.

There is inherent danger in attempting to convert the faithful from one religion to another.

I thought my post would express that.




*gone fishing*

Hey my friend I am so sorry if your first post was misenterpeted in a way that didn't reflect your actual view.

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify it for me.

You know what they say "Give a man a fish and he has a meal"..."Teach a man to fish and he has an excuse to drink beer".

Next round is on me, maybe I can use it to wash the egg of my face?

I very much agree there is an inherent danger in trying to convert the religious faithful of one sect from another.

The reality of religion is there is no real religious freedom, once the priestly class counts you as a member of the flock...they sure don't want to trade, sell, or have you go straying to another sheppard...

Well unless you had a little accident with the Candlelabbra stick like I did!

Accidently burn half a church down and ruin a Sunday sermon in the process Christians really aren't all that forgiving!

Originally posted by marshy10156
I'm not a religious person but i still find this quite disgusting really.
I'm not going to try to take a stab at religion (even though i would really love to but im not that sort of person to stamp out someones beliefs)
but all i can say is quite often in religious debates with atheists "vs" Christians you usually will see somewhere along the line something resembling " why are you trying to convert christians to atheists, you dont see christians invading peoples space trying to convert them" well i think most of you can see where im getting at with these soldiers trying to force feed their crap to the non-believers

What you describe is a common offence/defence on the part of most of the religious peoples. When you promote Athiesim or being Agnostic they do tend to scream why are people attacking our religion.

They never stop to truly consider their religion is constantly on the attack.

That the organized official part of their sects are constantly putting forth an agenda in the political arena that they are trying to subject everyone too.

Sadly a lot of them will fall behind the "Well I believe in G-d not the churches and I don't even go to one" yet even while they are distancing themselves from the official orginizational churches of their sect, they won't very often if at all condemn an action like the one described in this thread but will instead fall back to a position of why G-d himself has such virtues and worth to them selves individually all the while questioning your own morallity for not embracing that as they do and tacitly approving of efforts like the one being made by this Chaplain. I think it's very disengenous or incredibly naive or both.

I wish people in America, because I have no right to speak for other countries, and no desire to, that people of al faiths would just practice their religions privately with out trying to impose their religious views and desires from everyone to TV personalities, Politicians and plastering it all over our worthless fiat instrument of debt currency, but would respect the fact that the Constitution calls for Church and State being seperate.

I suspect if some other religion or sect made such inroads as to enjoy the hedgemony that Judean/Christians now do in American Society and Government that the Judean/Christians would be the ones yelling first and loudest about seperation of church and state if some other church supplanted them and succesfully seperated them from state.

I hope they cite this verse. Seems it would be fitting.

www.biblegateway.com...

Matthew 23

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Doesn't seem that traveling the seas for converts was the idea.

Originally posted by Dean Goldberry
The Honorable Doctor-Reverend Obediah J. Krampgasser implores ye to pray for the continued good harvest from the blessed opium fields of Afghanistan. May their production never be as paltry as in the bad old days of the Taliban. Keep on bringin' Jesus to the heathens! In money's name we pray, amen.

(That would be the guy who's a preacher AND CIA agent).

Well hey that's a Hallelujah and then some right there. It is amazing how opium production has gone up 90 fold since the NATO led invasion of Afghanistan.

No doubt just a bit of stolen crop yield technology usurped from the Peace Corps or other Missionairies entirely unbeknownst to them.

That's a dual edged sword that just keeps giving to the CIA...money for black ops and more junkies to work and house in the Prison/Industrial complex back home...where every inmate has access to a chaplain!

In Caesar's name thine will be done.

To empire!

Originally posted by Missletow
It must be chilly up there in the heavenly kingdom. Maybe he's just old fashioned, but wouldn't Jesus rather have a Snuggie?

I am sure he would and no doubt a nice box of juicey juice with some Animal Cracker Cookies he can build and ark with out of saved popcycle sticks meticulously shaped as opposed to miraculously shaped on the sidewalk.

It's a shame people don't understand kids just want to have fun and we are all very much children.

Thanks for reminding us that.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Why is it so odd that Christians are asked to spread the Gospel? They have the right to follow their religion in Afghanistan just like they do in the US. This is not the Govt pushing Christianity, the military offers spiritual leaders for most religions, even Islam in the military.

Wouldn't it be a bigger travesty to tell them they could not spread the gospel as their religion encourages?

But honestly I think they should concentrate more on sending them to Jesus than bringing them.

This is a war that the taliban started by harboring the planning of 9/11 by Al Quaeda and the feelings of the Taliban fighters are not one of my concerns. If the Afgahns want the US out, all they have to do is hand over Bin Laden and his cronies. Done deal. Until they do, not even Allah can protect them from the Marines.

Originally posted by badmedia
I hope they cite this verse. Seems it would be fitting.

www.biblegateway.com...

Matthew 23

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Doesn't seem that traveling the seas for converts was the idea.

I have to confess I haven't read much Biblical scripture...you know beyond This Book is Courtesy of the Gideons. I wish they would start leaving Almond Rocha in the drawers of hotel rooms everywhere instead...that's my first move towards the mini-bars!

Yet, I have studied history intently and the history of the religions intently and I am not sure but I think part of the big Problem might be when the Ages changed from the Bull to the Ram everything went fine, but when the Ages changed from the Ram to the Fish the Rams didn't want to quite let go (who does? it's the great challenge in life) and appear to have coopted, distorted the age of the Fish, which Christians kind of with the aide of the Jews turned into the age of Christ...now in original scripture the problem becomes more evident when Christ originally says I will be with you to the end of the Aeon, which is age...but the New Testament changed that to I will be with you to the End. So on a level that the mere laity and lower priestly class exist this all means nothing to them, but on the level the upper priestly class exists it looks like the not seemingly supposed to but was anyway combined age of the extended ram with the fish, are looking to further prolong that into the age of aquarius which is supposed to start in 2150, but I have a sneaking suspicion that unlike those very clever Mayans who understood Leap Years, the not as clever Romans and Hebrews didn't and that 2150 date is likely supposed to be 2012.

When one looks at how the Zodiac has popped up in the religions which use the Zodiac symbols to split the world's time into ages along the procession of the equinoxes it becomes more apparent that the doom and gloom of the book of revelations is simply about the end of the age of Pices, the age of the Fish, the age of Christ.

Yet the Ram, the Hebrews, seem to have extended out their Religious age by in part usurping, helping to form, and then clinging on to the age of the fish, and I think so much of the turbulence we are seeing now is as yet another age ends how the Ram and Fish can extend out their power at the expense of the age of Aquarious.

The sad part is in my imagined and humbled oppinion the age of the Ram was meant to be full speed ahead, but the age of the fish was supposed to be about discovery, just like people on ATS fish for the truth. Yet in many ways this conspiracy between the Ram and the Fish have kept that from really blossoming to the extent I imagine it was meant to in the grand planetary and universal design and when the age of Aquarius does get here the Fish who have never learned how to swim or what they are really supposed to be feeding off of are going to drown in that great big ocean, while meanwhile I am guessing the Rams are just planning on building another Ark and that will help them sail across it and keep from drowning.

I think humankind is being tragically held back due to these distortions, deceptions and conspiracies but that's just me...since I am sure everyone else is delighted with the state that the world is in!

It is a Chaplin asking troops to do this. Why is that so odd to people? They are asking that the troops spread their faith with the citizens there (meaning the troops own idea of the Christian faith). It is not like the troops or Chaplin are saying worship this way or die. They are not forcing the people to convert at all.

Again this is a Chaplin saying this, not the President, a general, or any high ranking official. A Chaplin you know a preacher, minister, priest whatever you wish to call them. He is a man of faith asking others of faith to spread the word or their shared faith. That is a normal thing to do no some weird, strange order being given.

But hey whatever go ahead and hate on the guy and all Christians after all I am sure they are making your life and everyone else’s life miserable. I am sure many are being forced into Christianity for fear of their life. God (am I allowed to say that now?) forbid if a Chaplin actually did the job they were really hired to do (you know help to spread their faith and help others with their faith).

Raist

Originally posted by slicobacon
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Why is it so odd that Christians are asked to spread the Gospel? They have the right to follow their religion in Afghanistan just like they do in the US. This is not the Govt pushing Christianity, the military offers spiritual leaders for most religions, even Islam in the military.

Wouldn't it be a bigger travesty to tell them they could not spread the gospel as their religion encourages?

But honestly I think they should concentrate more on sending them to Jesus than bringing them.

This is a war that the taliban started by harboring the planning of 9/11 by Al Quaeda and the feelings of the Taliban fighters are not one of my concerns. If the Afgahns want the US out, all they have to do is hand over Bin Laden and his cronies. Done deal. Until they do, not even Allah can protect them from the Marines.

It would have been great had you read the whole post before posting my friend.

It would be great if you actually visited the FBI's Web Site and realized that none of the alleged 9-11 Hijackers were members of the Taliban, and none of them were from Afghanistan. In fact 6 of them are still alive and had their identities stolen and played no part in 911. Yet the FBI who has yet to charge a single soul in connection with the greatest crime to ever occur on American soil, still has those six individuals pictures and names on their Web Site. Likewise the FBI has never charged Osama Bin Laden with 9-11 Crimes but for previous bombings on U.S. Embassies in Africa.

Chances are some other things you have not read are Rudyard Kippling who would provide you with a fascinating read on the history of Afghanistan whose fiercely independently minded and rugged people have rebelled invaders from Alexander the Great to the Brittish Empire to the Soviet Union...

It's nice that you have something you believe in, but the fact that other people don't believe in it, whether here or in Afghanistan is hardly deserving of your stated desire to murder people wholesale.

This is the frightening aspect of Christianity that seems to frighten everyone the world over but Christians...I wonder why?

Likely the most misquoted part of the Constitution -

"Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Separation of Church and State is a modern invention of a court that chooses to legislate from the bench. What it says is simple to define.

There can be no State Church and the Government may not interfere with Churches. A child could understand it. Only the haters misinterpret it. In fact they flat out lie about what it says.

Soldiers are not on duty 24/7 and nobody has a right to dictate to them what they do or don't do in their personal lives in relationship to their faith. Atheists don't attend services so messages to the Christians by their Chaplins is not a product of the Military. This whole story is very disingenuous and clearly shows that people posting don't just simply not believe, they hate.

This whole thread is an example of that hatred being spewed by incredibly intollerent people who lie about their motives. You use the Internet like the KKK uses its white hoods. If you Christian Haters think you are any different than the KKK, think again. Same people, different target.

reply to post by Blaine91555

Likely the most misquoted part of the Constitution -

"Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Actually I referred to the “There shall be no religious test held for office” of the Constitution not the amendments to it. Clearly our forefathers who history shows almost to a man were Deists, Atheists and Agnostics so only danger to the over all liberties and freedoms of the people in allowing Religion to mix with Government. The fact that the Declaration of Independence refers to “Nature’s God” which most religious scholars interpret as being the Sun and not the son, or the father or the holy ghost might clue most reasoned people in that no ours was not founded as a Christian nation, as very clearly evidenced by the Treaty of Tripoli negotiated with the Barbary Coast Pirates where President and Founding Father John Adams clearly states in the Treaty, The United States of America is by no means a Christian Nation. Language that the Congress of the day had no problem with as they passed it overwhelmingly, like many people with a special interest and non governmental agenda you are simply seeking to revise history to support your agenda and point of view…which is pretty much akin to the Promise Margarine Container saying it tastes like Butter, but it truly doesn’t.

Separation of Church and State is a modern invention of a court that chooses to legislate from the bench. What it says is simple to define.

Like many of our laws because of somewhat antiquated language this is something subject to the interpretation of people who don’t understand that the King’s English is meant to be taken literally not figuratively. Refer to my passage above. What the Supreme Court did do was uphold the obvious from an emboldened Christian portion of the society that had started making inroads during the Civil War to merge elements of the Christian Church and state at a time when the Constitutional Government began to give way to the Corporate Government that was keen to cut every backroom deal they could to usurp and hold on to power. A series of wars and communists witch hunts made Christianity more appealing to an increasingly corrupt Government looking to draw a dividing line of distinction between the Godless Communists and the God Fearing decent Christians of the United States. Not because the Godless Communists posed a threat to our freedoms and liberty, but because the increasingly corrupt Corporate Government did pose a threat to our freedoms and liberty and as usual the easiest people to manipulate are those subscribing to purely faith based reasoning systems, and the government kept those people looking to the Communist East instead of at the Halls of Congress and the White House rapidly filling with a new criminal elitist class all to happy to feed the people the opium of religion to intoxicate and distract them. Finally the Supreme Court did step in and straighten the well coordinated and planned confusion the Religious Christian Elements began sewing during the Civil War onward. Another all to typical try and revisionist history but anyone who has actually read the real History of the nation from it’s inception and the Biographies and Auto Biographies of those involved with it truly knows better.

There can be no State Church and the Government may not interfere with Churches. A child could understand it. Only the haters misinterpret it. In fact they flat out lie about what it says.

Yes a child could understand it. For some reason people insisting that their Constitution be upheld and their liberties not be impinged upon in any way by the religious who have a right to practice their religion freely but not from an office of government which does make the State the Church and anyone with an ounce of common sense, young or old would understand and appreciate that. Yet there are those pitiful agenda driven un-American souls who believe the best defense is a good offence so they try to claim it’s about hate, because in their estimation only their civil liberties and their agenda matters and anyone who will not tolerate it as part of the state therefore must hate them. As I like to tell some people, I dislike the foolish things you do, I don’t dislike you. Clearly your argument can’t draw a distinction between people not favoring any unconstitutional encroachment and their motive and what compels them. I think it is safe to simply say, you hate that people thwart this twisted view of our Constitutional Liberties and system of government and since it arouses that emotion in you, you imagine it arouses that emotion in them. In reality I have great empathy for those trapped in circular thinking and boxes.

Soldiers are not on duty 24/7 and nobody has a right to dictate to them what they do or don't do in their personal lives in relationship to their faith. Atheists don't attend services so messages to the Christians by their Chaplins is not a product of the Military. This whole story is very disingenuous and clearly shows that people posting don't just simply not believe, they hate.

The Chaplains wear Military uniforms, hold rank, have a chain of command, and draw pay from the U.S. Government. They hold an office. It does not matter who attends the services or not. There shall be no religious tests to hold office. When you put forth a sermon that favors one denomination as a military chaplain you have already broken protocol. When you extol those soldiers who are only in that Country serving the State not as Private citizens but in fact 24 hour a day property of the United States Government to spread the Christian word you are then merging State and Religion and there is no getting around that my friend except for someone desperately trying to excuse it. To my knowledge know American Soldier participating in the “Longest Day” D-Day got to stay back in England because it wasn’t their shift, or got to get the Germans to hold their fire on them when there 8 hour shift is up. Once again this is someone strongly disliking that the wool simply can’t be pulled over someone’s eyes for your convenience. It is also highly counter productive to an insurgent type war where real success that saves American lives and money is winning hearts and minds. Why don’t you call up the Arab and Muslim News Networks who aired this story and ask them how many hearts and minds such actions on our part win? This is the kind of selfish foolishness that will only draw more people to fight against our Service People and cost more of our Service People lives, and cost the American Tax Payers more money. Yet another reason our much wiser forefathers did not want Church and State merged.

This whole thread is an example of that hatred being spewed by incredibly intollerent people who lie about their motives. You use the Internet like the KKK uses its white hoods. If you Christian Haters think you are any different than the KKK, think again. Same people, different target.

Actually my friend, I don’t even lock my front door at night and I live in a major metropolitan area. I would have this debate with you face to face except to you its not a debate about what is constitutional but a point of pride and contention to validate your belief system that you take as a personal attack upon you instead of a denunciation of a gross dereliction of duty by a senior member of the military in a hotly contested war zone who violated protocols and common sense. If you weren’t by admission condoning the attempt to impose Christian beliefs upon non Christians perhaps you wouldn’t be inviting or party to a debate where you feel your belief system is unfairly under attack when it is from your belief system the attack emanated in the very first place.

Perhaps one day you will be able to debate what you feel are virtues of your religion in a manner that lacks contempt and rancor but trust me when I say insecure paranoia does not make any of your contentions or true anymore than your scriptures are true when the only way someone could take them is on faith alone and you yourself are acting in a completely contrary nature to what your scriptures teach.

This is how your religious agenda becomes a political agenda and that my friend is a clear attempt to meld Church and State which no matter how you want to interpreted it is still not lawfully binding when it pertains to something the Supreme Court has long upheld.

You don’t have to be a Christian to preach the virtues of love. Loving everything some misguided and confused people do simply because of the book they choose to read isn’t wise or compassionate, and it certainly isn’t hateful to love someone enough to give them a dose of common sense and remind them of the Principals of this nation and the Constitution that grants you the freedom to imagine such debates are about hate, and me the freedom to know they are about love.

The Chaplain was wrong. Period.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Jebus says repost

Save us Jebus!

EDIT: WAIT WAIT WAIT

This is on military.com????????????????????????

military.com is a govt. owned site no?

I believe that in dimensional detective's thread on this there was a video too showing the troops doing this.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by ModernAcademia]

Please, give me the name of someone you love, so i can ridicule it. I agree with the op on how impoper such conduct is (probably playing into the hands of extremists aka "you see? It's a disguised crusade!!", they'll say), but it is quite offensive, the jebus thing. It's not an irate thing, just something that pisses ya off when you hear it over and over. peace. Make fun of christianity all you want, but making fun of jesus is just a great show of ignorance, i think. peace.

reply to post by The Killah29


The Iraq war? I thought it was about afghanistan....As a canadian i'm proud we didn't go into Iraq, but did go to afghanistan, cause that's where the culprits were from........apparently. Frankly, I can't see Jean Chretien being involved in a crusade.

Originally posted by Raist
It is a Chaplin asking troops to do this. Why is that so odd to people? They are asking that the troops spread their faith with the citizens there (meaning the troops own idea of the Christian faith). It is not like the troops or Chaplin are saying worship this way or die. They are not forcing the people to convert at all.

Because the Chaplin works for the government.