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Why Do People Do This!
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I think you could have picked a much better video to use as a reference. A lot of the time when you see things like that, the things that look
really, really good (too good even) they are not attempted to hoax you, or convince you that they filmed a ufo, or an alien, or a giant tentacled
anime style monster. The people who make videos like the one above are doing so as practise, to show their skill, to pad their portfolio, and a host
of other legitimate, work related, or even hobby related reasons.
There are those who do make fakes for the purpose of trying to convince people that they are looking at something real, but the majority of those videos are people who want to work in a SFX field, or who enjoy doing things like that.
When this stuff is passed as real, it is annoying, when it is done for entertainment (which is actually what the majority of these kidns of videos are made for) it is just somebody trying to get better at a craft. Everybody needs to practise.
Just wanted to posit my two cents before sinking back into lurker obscurity.
There are those who do make fakes for the purpose of trying to convince people that they are looking at something real, but the majority of those videos are people who want to work in a SFX field, or who enjoy doing things like that.
When this stuff is passed as real, it is annoying, when it is done for entertainment (which is actually what the majority of these kidns of videos are made for) it is just somebody trying to get better at a craft. Everybody needs to practise.
Just wanted to posit my two cents before sinking back into lurker obscurity.
reply to post by jkrog08
On the contrary, I value the truth and what we can show to be true about the world. However, to discover that truth - you need a methodology to separate reality from fantasy. This is a methodology that "UFOologists" and believers continually and predictably ignore - thus opening them up to hoaxes of every kind because they cannot distinguish between what's real and what's fantasy. Not to say they're schizo or anything... they're just gullible.
If even a handful of these videos are true and represent actual UFO sightings, then they still represent nothing if you cannot weed them out of the multitude of various other claims. We may be overlooking an incredible discovery, but we're also insulating ourselves from a myriad of fantasies that have no bearing on the reality. There are a handful of UFO sightings which have been subject to the battery of a methodology to determine authenticity - and passed. Yet the only practical information we can glean from it is "We don't know what that is". This, at least, is true to reality. A truth you seem to care so much about but are willing to abandon for the sake of speculation. They do remain unknown, because to go one step further and claim aliens would be to once again open the door of baseless speculation that does nothing but obfuscate and muddy the subject.
maybe you dont have the passion or the want for the truth that others and myself have.
On the contrary, I value the truth and what we can show to be true about the world. However, to discover that truth - you need a methodology to separate reality from fantasy. This is a methodology that "UFOologists" and believers continually and predictably ignore - thus opening them up to hoaxes of every kind because they cannot distinguish between what's real and what's fantasy. Not to say they're schizo or anything... they're just gullible.
If even a handful of these videos are true and represent actual UFO sightings, then they still represent nothing if you cannot weed them out of the multitude of various other claims. We may be overlooking an incredible discovery, but we're also insulating ourselves from a myriad of fantasies that have no bearing on the reality. There are a handful of UFO sightings which have been subject to the battery of a methodology to determine authenticity - and passed. Yet the only practical information we can glean from it is "We don't know what that is". This, at least, is true to reality. A truth you seem to care so much about but are willing to abandon for the sake of speculation. They do remain unknown, because to go one step further and claim aliens would be to once again open the door of baseless speculation that does nothing but obfuscate and muddy the subject.
reply to post by jkrog08
lawlz. You're on a site where people are already paranoid over government surveillance and big brother keeping his thumb on you, and you go off and suggest a "Truth Police" that institute mandatory jail sentences for lying? Wow... talk about hypocrisy. I really hope your fellow conspiracy theorists don't agree with you on this point, though it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
It's called freedom of speech bud, and unless you're obligated to tell the truth by law (legal contracts, courtroom, etc) - you're allowed to lie through your teeth 24/7 and nobody can stop you. Some people make a damned good living doing it... such as salesmen, pundits, and lawyers.
So no... no thought police buddy. You're just going to exercise your critical thinking skills a bit. It might be tough to use your brain and think, not just rely and trust everybody to be truthful all the time... I sympathize... but you'll be much better for it in the long run.
Because I have a stance that anyone who perpetrated a knowing hoax pertaining to anything should be punished?
lawlz. You're on a site where people are already paranoid over government surveillance and big brother keeping his thumb on you, and you go off and suggest a "Truth Police" that institute mandatory jail sentences for lying? Wow... talk about hypocrisy. I really hope your fellow conspiracy theorists don't agree with you on this point, though it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
It's called freedom of speech bud, and unless you're obligated to tell the truth by law (legal contracts, courtroom, etc) - you're allowed to lie through your teeth 24/7 and nobody can stop you. Some people make a damned good living doing it... such as salesmen, pundits, and lawyers.
So no... no thought police buddy. You're just going to exercise your critical thinking skills a bit. It might be tough to use your brain and think, not just rely and trust everybody to be truthful all the time... I sympathize... but you'll be much better for it in the long run.
reply to post by jkrog08
I agree. Maybe nobody else will stand with your opinion, but I will. I think that people that intentionally create a video fraud depicting either aliens or spacecraft should be tried, judged and jailed. Now, those that create such projects and declare them as creations........ well, no problem.
I think that creating fake EBE videos is a giant lie, with intent to defraud and/or deceive and it should be an actionable offense.
I agree. Maybe nobody else will stand with your opinion, but I will. I think that people that intentionally create a video fraud depicting either aliens or spacecraft should be tried, judged and jailed. Now, those that create such projects and declare them as creations........ well, no problem.
I think that creating fake EBE videos is a giant lie, with intent to defraud and/or deceive and it should be an actionable offense.
reply to post by sidhedarkness
I appreciate your comment.I picked this video because it is something that so many people would believe off hand,and plus it is an easy representation of a fake video.The user on youtube announced it as real.
I appreciate your comment.I picked this video because it is something that so many people would believe off hand,and plus it is an easy representation of a fake video.The user on youtube announced it as real.
reply to post by argentus
Thanks for your support!I felt as if I was in a one on one hundred argument here!I totally agree with your interpretation of my OP.
Thanks for your support!I felt as if I was in a one on one hundred argument here!I totally agree with your interpretation of my OP.
reply to post by Lasheic
Let me guess.....Your probably at least above 35 years of age right?I only ask because it seems like your personality and attitude(not to mention language) is indicative of that age.It doesn't matter anyways..........I'll let go the "brain capacity" cut down as well.
Anyways I don't really think YOU comprehend what I am saying.....So let me put it down for you one more time.
Anyone who knowingly perpetrates a hoax,that they know is contrary to reality,in regards to any legitimate subject(Ufology,Physics,Cosmology,History,Mathematics,etc) should be punished by a "Class E Felony".WHY?For intentionally wasting time and research of a legitimate cause directed towards the betterment of the human race.
If you can not understand that,than I am sorry.If you do and still wish to argue I am more than willing to hear any rational response.
Let me guess.....Your probably at least above 35 years of age right?I only ask because it seems like your personality and attitude(not to mention language) is indicative of that age.It doesn't matter anyways..........I'll let go the "brain capacity" cut down as well.
Anyways I don't really think YOU comprehend what I am saying.....So let me put it down for you one more time.
Anyone who knowingly perpetrates a hoax,that they know is contrary to reality,in regards to any legitimate subject(Ufology,Physics,Cosmology,History,Mathematics,etc) should be punished by a "Class E Felony".WHY?For intentionally wasting time and research of a legitimate cause directed towards the betterment of the human race.
If you can not understand that,than I am sorry.If you do and still wish to argue I am more than willing to hear any rational response.
I can just see it now... the police start making the rounds and arresting anyone who ever made a UFO video. ATS would be ablaze with posts about how
"TPTB" are cracking down on the "Truth", and how it's all just a big cover to keep us in the dark. The idiots will believe whether or not there
is any reason to believe, and the crackdown on hoaxers would only be "evidence" to them that there really is something going on - further deepening
their delusion via a false sense of persecution.
And you wonder why I liken it to a religion?
And you wonder why I liken it to a religion?
reply to post by jkrog08
I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, however I have to say that you summed it up better than I could have. I think of such a lie as consistent with perjury. It should not be, and it damages the genuine investigation of this incredibly variant study of UFOs and EBEs in general.
There is information to be learned here. People that intentionally defraud it are a thorn in the side of progress of understanding.
I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, however I have to say that you summed it up better than I could have. I think of such a lie as consistent with perjury. It should not be, and it damages the genuine investigation of this incredibly variant study of UFOs and EBEs in general.
There is information to be learned here. People that intentionally defraud it are a thorn in the side of progress of understanding.
If you can not understand that,than I am sorry.If you do and still wish to argue I am more than willing to hear any rational response.
I understand perfectly. Hell, to a degree, I'm sympathetic - because it would mean an end to all this creationist BS that's threatening to infect the education system either by being added to curriculum or by taught by parents to their as-of-yet uneducated children. But you have to understand that you CAN'T DO THAT in a free society that values free speech. You have to leave it up to the individual to freely decide for themselves what they want to accept as the truth or not.
Not to mention, it strikes me as incredibly odd how the irony of promoting the institution of THOUGHT POLICE on a conspiracy website utterly escapes you?
reply to post by jkrog08
If the conviction is that a person deliberately invented a well-crafted hoax; and was exposed, then yes, that should be considered a felony, it's called Fraud. And people are convicted for Fraud all the time. But for some odd reason, there is no punishment whatsoever for those who intentionally deceive people with their craftsmanship in the UFO field. I'm guessing the PTB consider this a favor to their cause.
However if someone created such things with CGI or otherwise, with No intention of deception or preying on people or making money, then of course it should Not be considered a felony.
If the conviction is that a person deliberately invented a well-crafted hoax; and was exposed, then yes, that should be considered a felony, it's called Fraud. And people are convicted for Fraud all the time. But for some odd reason, there is no punishment whatsoever for those who intentionally deceive people with their craftsmanship in the UFO field. I'm guessing the PTB consider this a favor to their cause.
However if someone created such things with CGI or otherwise, with No intention of deception or preying on people or making money, then of course it should Not be considered a felony.
Originally posted by jkrog08
Anyone who knowingly perpetrates a hoax,that they know is contrary to reality,in regards to any legitimate subject(Ufology,Physics,Cosmology,History,Mathematics,etc)
Ufology is not considered legitimate subject by academics. If so where are these schools that teach these subjects? And also there are no laws out there to protect the ufo community nor will there be any unless something dramatic happens to change the government/courts/public perception of the subject.
reply to post by jkrog08
I'm not a skeptic - not a true skeptic - because I actually believe they exist
at least - I believe it's possible that they exist
but, still...you can't be serious?
there's been no crime committed here - it just annoys you
and I can't believe you really don't understand why they do it
it's not just to see that look on our stupid faces (though I'm sure that's a definite bonus)
it's the challenge - and the art
because it is art
that Haiti video - man - that was fun while it lasted
and even after - it's fun to look at
you really think these guys are interfering with how seriously this is all being taken - or getting in the way of discovering the truth?
this wondering has all been going on for years - years and years
way before serious CGI started showing up
if there's a truth in all this to be discovered - CGI isn't going to prevent anyone from discovering it
it just forces everyone to be just that much more analytical and thorough
Hell,some hoaxers were recently charged with a misdemeanor in Mass.(I think that's the state) for the recent UFO triangle hoax.So obviously I am not the only one who feels like this.But I guess I should have expected this thread to draw out all the skeptics.
I'm not a skeptic - not a true skeptic - because I actually believe they exist
at least - I believe it's possible that they exist
but, still...you can't be serious?
there's been no crime committed here - it just annoys you
and I can't believe you really don't understand why they do it
it's not just to see that look on our stupid faces (though I'm sure that's a definite bonus)
it's the challenge - and the art
because it is art
that Haiti video - man - that was fun while it lasted
and even after - it's fun to look at
you really think these guys are interfering with how seriously this is all being taken - or getting in the way of discovering the truth?
this wondering has all been going on for years - years and years
way before serious CGI started showing up
if there's a truth in all this to be discovered - CGI isn't going to prevent anyone from discovering it
it just forces everyone to be just that much more analytical and thorough
reply to post by argentus
No... not really. You don't see this happen in the field of stem cell research, or neuropathology? What about biochemistry or particle physics? Those are perfectly viable fields of research? Why isn't fraud being perpetrated there on a mass scale the way it is with UFOs? Oh... that's right... because they have a methodology called the scientific method which helps to weed out unsubstantiated claims - and default position of doubt that remains until all other possibilities are disproven.
Frauds do happen in science... but they're generally weeded out fairly quickly, and those who perpetrate such frauds are punished - because they've ruined their good name. Nobody in their right mind would offer them tenure or grants if they know that the research being produced is subject to fraud. Even if the one providing the grant money (which should be transparent) desires a certain outcome - it won't do any good when that data is cross-referenced and accuracy checked by other labs. It is an extremely brutal process, and if your claims can't stand up to the light of inquiry or peer-review - you're not going to go anywhere. If you're shown to cheat and fudge your findings, you're career is finished.
None of this occurs in UFOology.
There is information to be learned here. People that intentionally defraud it are a thorn in the side of progress of understanding.
No... not really. You don't see this happen in the field of stem cell research, or neuropathology? What about biochemistry or particle physics? Those are perfectly viable fields of research? Why isn't fraud being perpetrated there on a mass scale the way it is with UFOs? Oh... that's right... because they have a methodology called the scientific method which helps to weed out unsubstantiated claims - and default position of doubt that remains until all other possibilities are disproven.
Frauds do happen in science... but they're generally weeded out fairly quickly, and those who perpetrate such frauds are punished - because they've ruined their good name. Nobody in their right mind would offer them tenure or grants if they know that the research being produced is subject to fraud. Even if the one providing the grant money (which should be transparent) desires a certain outcome - it won't do any good when that data is cross-referenced and accuracy checked by other labs. It is an extremely brutal process, and if your claims can't stand up to the light of inquiry or peer-review - you're not going to go anywhere. If you're shown to cheat and fudge your findings, you're career is finished.
None of this occurs in UFOology.
There is a big difference between 3D art and a purposeful hoax.
Many CGI designers make clips looking for work or practicing their talents, and others take that work, copy it onto their own youtube channels and rename it with 'REAL UFO OMFG'.
You get the occasional intentional CG hoax such as the Haiti video, the C2C drones and the Aus. UFO wave, but most of the time the poor artists are having their work hijacked by pranksters.
UFO / Alien CGI can be very cool when it is not being flogged off as genuine footage.
Manbird12000 is one of the greatest freelance CG artists on the net. His UFO work is awesome.
Many CGI designers make clips looking for work or practicing their talents, and others take that work, copy it onto their own youtube channels and rename it with 'REAL UFO OMFG'.
You get the occasional intentional CG hoax such as the Haiti video, the C2C drones and the Aus. UFO wave, but most of the time the poor artists are having their work hijacked by pranksters.
UFO / Alien CGI can be very cool when it is not being flogged off as genuine footage.
Manbird12000 is one of the greatest freelance CG artists on the net. His UFO work is awesome.
reply to post by argentus
To you and "Gatecrasher".....I am glad you both see my side here,its like I am in the 1500s and claiming the Earth revolves around the Sun!lol........
To everyone else........To compare Ufology,which is obviously being restricted by the PTB to other branches by saying there are no hoaxes is a fallacy.There have been hoaxes in those fields,they just aren't on the same level as these.I don't understand how you guys can seriously say it is okay to deliberately impede a legit investigation!!!??!!
Ufology isn't taught in college,no.WHY?Because the claims it makes are so huge and substantial that it has not yet got the smoking gun to prove it beyond a doubt,and won't until the PTB or the ETs expose the truth!That goes for the other statements about why Ufology doesn't have proof or is taken seriously.
Why do people refuse Ufology so much?Because it is a total and existential shock to EVERYTHING THEY KNOW.
To you and "Gatecrasher".....I am glad you both see my side here,its like I am in the 1500s and claiming the Earth revolves around the Sun!lol........
To everyone else........To compare Ufology,which is obviously being restricted by the PTB to other branches by saying there are no hoaxes is a fallacy.There have been hoaxes in those fields,they just aren't on the same level as these.I don't understand how you guys can seriously say it is okay to deliberately impede a legit investigation!!!??!!
Ufology isn't taught in college,no.WHY?Because the claims it makes are so huge and substantial that it has not yet got the smoking gun to prove it beyond a doubt,and won't until the PTB or the ETs expose the truth!That goes for the other statements about why Ufology doesn't have proof or is taken seriously.
Why do people refuse Ufology so much?Because it is a total and existential shock to EVERYTHING THEY KNOW.
reply to post by fooffstarr
Thank you!I agree,if it is real CGI and not said to be 'real' then (like I said) CGI is a wonderful technology that has changed movies and entertainment forever.It has opened imaginations for all and makes any movie made pre 2000 look like a 'd' movie,ll.But if it is a purposeful hoax then punishments MUST be applied.
Thank you!I agree,if it is real CGI and not said to be 'real' then (like I said) CGI is a wonderful technology that has changed movies and entertainment forever.It has opened imaginations for all and makes any movie made pre 2000 look like a 'd' movie,ll.But if it is a purposeful hoax then punishments MUST be applied.
I've already exchanged some U2Us with the OP, and i will add my humble two cents about the video in the op:
Philipe Kling David, its author, is a victim of the people who have stolen his fictional work and re-uploaded it out of contest
Here is his YouTube channel:
he clearly indicates (even at the start of each video) the link to www.mundogump.com.br... saying in the description "the truth is there": it took to me one minute, the first time i saw one of his videos, to find out the truth, and the truth is that it's a fictional, self produced work, never intended to be an hoax. Someone, every now and then, download it from his channel and re-upload it out of contest, giving to his videos crazy descriptions.
I've also invited Philipe here and he joined ATS, we had a very nice discussion with him
CGI: discussion with Philipe Kling David
His ATS profile: Philipe3d
I'm confident that after visiting his website and reading his story, many will get convinced that he's just a victim of the people who have stolen his works and tried to pass them as the real deal: he's a psychologist, illustrator, 3d artist and runs a special effects company called Portifolium: imagine some guy who cuts a part of The Independence Day, then he uploads it to Youtube claiming it to be real: would we blame Roland Emmerich if someone would take it seriously, or take the UFO phenomenon less seriously? I'm just talking about philipe's specific case,
while regarding the people who make CGI and try to pass them as the real deal, I have to say that YES, should face some real punishment because they give a bad name to the whole community, including those who put time and efforts in order to get as closer as possible to the truth, including YOU who are reading this post right now
In Italy, for example, there's a law called "procurato allarme" (we could translate it as "creation of false alarm" ):
well, the guy who took this photo
Filiberto Caponi, was charged for that, cause he claimed that there was some kinda of UFO invasion in order to add credibility to the pic, while the object in the pic turned out to be a puppet made by himself with clay (he was a clay modeler/sculptor), according to the local police. I would like to see some similar law, just up to date.
CGI can be a KILLER for ufology, it's a threat to say the very least:
so I share the concerns expressed in the OP: they are very understandable, i just wanted to share the story of Philipe, whom has no faults but keeps being blamed everywhere to be an hoaxter, while he's just a director, animator, researcher who has no money enough to make some hollywood kolossal, but he's trying to get the attention of some major by making and sharing his fictional work on HIS OWN website
In my humble opinion, who makes an hoax and tries to pass it as real should be somehow punished, of course those who make money by selling dvd containing a load of crap:
for example, one who produces a DVD knowing that its contents are hoaxes, shouldn't be allowed to sell DVD anymore, should be banned from the market and end of story, while the present scenario shows many people PROVEN to have endorsed blatant hoaxes, and aware tey were hoaxes, still selling DVDs and still being believed, and this is unacceptable.
While those who make their ten seconds CGI, are not a serious threat in my opinion: a video with no story, no witnesses, no real names, no media coverage... will go nowhere. We can protect ourselves by increasing our skills in identifying hoaxes, posing questions over questions, researching, studing the best cases and sharing them. There are so many interesting and unexplained cases out there: has yet to born the attention seeker able to dowsize their importance with a crappy ten seconds CGI.
While the artists like Chris Oakley, Kris Avery, David Nicolas, manbird12000 could be very helpfull because they show what can be done with the last software. Thanks for the OP and for the other posts.
[edit on 1/5/2009 by internos]
Philipe Kling David, its author, is a victim of the people who have stolen his fictional work and re-uploaded it out of contest
Here is his YouTube channel:
he clearly indicates (even at the start of each video) the link to www.mundogump.com.br... saying in the description "the truth is there": it took to me one minute, the first time i saw one of his videos, to find out the truth, and the truth is that it's a fictional, self produced work, never intended to be an hoax. Someone, every now and then, download it from his channel and re-upload it out of contest, giving to his videos crazy descriptions.
I've also invited Philipe here and he joined ATS, we had a very nice discussion with him
CGI: discussion with Philipe Kling David
His ATS profile: Philipe3d
I'm confident that after visiting his website and reading his story, many will get convinced that he's just a victim of the people who have stolen his works and tried to pass them as the real deal: he's a psychologist, illustrator, 3d artist and runs a special effects company called Portifolium: imagine some guy who cuts a part of The Independence Day, then he uploads it to Youtube claiming it to be real: would we blame Roland Emmerich if someone would take it seriously, or take the UFO phenomenon less seriously? I'm just talking about philipe's specific case,
while regarding the people who make CGI and try to pass them as the real deal, I have to say that YES, should face some real punishment because they give a bad name to the whole community, including those who put time and efforts in order to get as closer as possible to the truth, including YOU who are reading this post right now
In Italy, for example, there's a law called "procurato allarme" (we could translate it as "creation of false alarm" ):
well, the guy who took this photo
Filiberto Caponi, was charged for that, cause he claimed that there was some kinda of UFO invasion in order to add credibility to the pic, while the object in the pic turned out to be a puppet made by himself with clay (he was a clay modeler/sculptor), according to the local police. I would like to see some similar law, just up to date.
CGI can be a KILLER for ufology, it's a threat to say the very least:
so I share the concerns expressed in the OP: they are very understandable, i just wanted to share the story of Philipe, whom has no faults but keeps being blamed everywhere to be an hoaxter, while he's just a director, animator, researcher who has no money enough to make some hollywood kolossal, but he's trying to get the attention of some major by making and sharing his fictional work on HIS OWN website
In my humble opinion, who makes an hoax and tries to pass it as real should be somehow punished, of course those who make money by selling dvd containing a load of crap:
for example, one who produces a DVD knowing that its contents are hoaxes, shouldn't be allowed to sell DVD anymore, should be banned from the market and end of story, while the present scenario shows many people PROVEN to have endorsed blatant hoaxes, and aware tey were hoaxes, still selling DVDs and still being believed, and this is unacceptable.
While those who make their ten seconds CGI, are not a serious threat in my opinion: a video with no story, no witnesses, no real names, no media coverage... will go nowhere. We can protect ourselves by increasing our skills in identifying hoaxes, posing questions over questions, researching, studing the best cases and sharing them. There are so many interesting and unexplained cases out there: has yet to born the attention seeker able to dowsize their importance with a crappy ten seconds CGI.
While the artists like Chris Oakley, Kris Avery, David Nicolas, manbird12000 could be very helpfull because they show what can be done with the last software. Thanks for the OP and for the other posts.
[edit on 1/5/2009 by internos]
Originally posted by jkrog08
Why do people refuse Ufology so much?Because it is a total and existential shock to EVERYTHING THEY KNOW.
Simple fact until proven otherwise, is that it is considered fairytales. I see no other subject being taken seriously until it can be validated through science testing and such.
reply to post by jkrog08
you really want to punish someone - don't you?
:-)
first - you'd have to get someone to take the research seriously - as seriously as a crime investigation
and by someone - I mean everybody
including the government - the BIG everybody
then it would be the same as interfering with a crime investigation - and you would get to punish someone
in the meantime - enjoy the show and keep watching - I'm sure if it's out there - it will turn up for reals - eventually
the cartoons aren't going to prevent it from happening
you really want to punish someone - don't you?
:-)
first - you'd have to get someone to take the research seriously - as seriously as a crime investigation
and by someone - I mean everybody
including the government - the BIG everybody
then it would be the same as interfering with a crime investigation - and you would get to punish someone
in the meantime - enjoy the show and keep watching - I'm sure if it's out there - it will turn up for reals - eventually
the cartoons aren't going to prevent it from happening
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