Our Aryan Heritage: Learn about your real spiritual heritage

reply to post by Indigo_Child


Doesn't matter if Peter Berresford Ellis supports Celtic independence or Celtic culture, it doesn't make his claims right just because he says so. Where is the real proof. I provided real proof, you provided an opinion piece by someone who also supports socialism.

In addition, how long ago did Mr Ellis write these claims, because the mapping of our DNA has greatly changed our perspectives of history, not to mention recent archeological finds.

By the way, I am not British, possibly some Celtic blood, but that has nothing to do with my position. Like I originally stated, the whole search for perfection thing I find to be very unrealistic and wasteful.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
The untouchables by the way are largely a creation of British misrule of India. The untouchables were skilled craftsman prior to British rule, and wealthy and prosperous. The British abolished traditional Indian crafts and education, resulting in this caste becoming impoverished. As they they lacked agricultural and husbandary skills that the the labour caste had, they had to resort to unsavoury jobs like cleaning sewers and toilets to survive and as a result the other castes did not want to touch them in fear they will be contaminated.

This has me curious about Indian history.

Did these jobs, ("unsavoury jobs like cleaning sewers and toilets",) not get done in India before British Colonisation?

If people did also perform these tasks in earlier times, were they also shunned back then for fear of contamination, or was the attitude to such workers different back then?

reply to post by Indigo_Child


I just caught the end of this post, and I wanted to say, sounds great that you have found your way through Hinduism. I'm glad you found a path. Just because Hinduism is not my way, doesn't mean it won't work for you. If we were all on the same broad and level, downward path, chances are we would be heading in the wrong direction. Anyway, we are all blind men patting a different part of a giant elephant.

Special Theory of Relativity:

Einstein’s theory on time is supported by evidence; time dilation effects have been measured using atomic clocks. We take time dilation into account when observing stars today.

He is not wrong, time really is relative to the observer and there is no absolute time where events happen. This is the real nature of time. Accept it and move on.

Time and perfection:

I once again will repeat for nth - time does exist, but it is not real. We are at different stages in time in our evolution, but this is only apparent, it is not real.

The soul is never imperfect, it just a silent observer of time. The ego is imperfect, it is entangled in time. However, like time, the ego is also not real. Much of Hindu Philosophy today is supported by cognitive science which also concludes that the ego is not real.

The Hindu caste system is a corruption of Vedic Varna dharma ashram, which stipulates four major classes of society teachers/intellectuals, admin/civil services, merchants/business and labourers/workers. This is first mentioned in the Rig Veda and later is found in the Gita. At no point is it ever described as birth-based. On the contrary in the Gita it specifically says ones class is based solely on their merit.

The birth-based caste system was imposed later on in post-Vedic times. This is described in the Smriti texts(code of laws) where it became necessary to organise society by birth. The argument can be found in one of the Smritis when it discussed merit-based and birth based castes for society at the time, and it rules that birth-based is better for their times than merit based. This is where that tradition started, rougly around 1BCE.

Post-Vedic Hindusim was a major corruption of earlier Vedic society. This was because after the cataclysms around 5000 years, Vedic society split up into many factions and lost the original cohesion and class structure which was guided by teachers. This is when all kinds of corruption set in such as caste system, animal sacrifice and idol worship. This can be observed all across Pagan societies.

Time is a sine wave:

Yes, time is a spiral, each spiral representing a sub cycle but it ends at the point of singularity. Time is not progressive because then that means something is coming out of nothing which is a logical impossibility. In cyclic time, nothing ever new is created, time just moves in cycles. It is a closed system. It is likewise expected that the universe will crunch on itself at the end of time thus returning to its point of origin. The cyclic nature is observable throughout nature. This is just how nature works. Respect that.

The soul is not an agent in the world of space-time. The entire world is purely material and is governed by material principles. There are three fundamental forces which govern every phenomenon in the world, it is their vibration that gives rise to everything in the world. Is this true? If your brain does not allow you to move your finger, no matter how much you will it, the finger will not move. I can easily trick your mind into imagining things that are not even there, such as "ghost limbs" The mind and body are material. The only role of the soul in the material world is the initial observation, this breaks the supersymmetry of the three fundamental forces and it leads to a singularity state(the primordial fireball) and then an expansion(big bang) and then atoms combine and recombine to form the elements, then biological organisms, animals and then humans. This what "You" really are. You're just a bunch of processes.
The true "I" is the "I amness" that you feel, and thought is just processes that your mind generates. The thought-part of you is inert and unconscious, the feeling part of is you is conscious.

Hinduism, another path?

I prefer not to use the term Hinduism, because it’s ambigious. I will instead use the original and unadulterated term: Vedic dharma. It is not a choice. It is a cosmic religion and is a science of reality. This is why modern science widely agrees with it. It tells you the facts of reality through reason and pure logic. It can all be tested.

It talks about parallel universes - supported by multiple world theory
It talks about atoms and subatomic particles - supported by particle physics
It talks about relativity of time - supported by the theory of relativity.
It talks about the mind as a processor - supported by cognitive science
It talks about the universe expanding from singularity and cosmic cycles - supported by big bang and cyclic-universe theory.
It talks about the universe being fundamentally vibration - supported by String theory
It talks about universal mathematical languages - supported by Generative linguistics
It talks about the observer and reality being inseparable - supported by Quantum physics
It is about unconscious mental structures - supported by Psychoanalytic theory
It talks about reality being holographic - supported by Holographic universe theory

All claims that Vedic dharma makes are scientifically testable and can be validated. It is therefore not a religion as you understood the term - faith based. It is more of a science of reality.

I have never accepted anything the Vedas have said at face-value. I have tested everything they say with logic and supporting scientific data. This is the approach the Aryans tell themselves: Never just believe anything. Test it yourself using pure reason.

Modern Science is everyday discovering the same facts the Aryans did. It is now discovering that Ayurvedic formulations(Aryan medicine) actually has very high efficacy in treating disease. It is discovering that just as the Yogic texts say we really do have biological rhythms and nasal breathing cycles.

Meditation has been studied scientifically and it has been found that it exactly corresponds to how Aryan texts describe it.

So there is simply an overwhelming mass of evidence that Vedic religion is actually scientific and therefore it is based on facts, not beliefs. So take it very seriously.

If they are saying the soul reincarnates, then be sure that it does. It’s just how it is.

If they say that the universe is a hologram, then be sure that it is. It is just how it is.

The Vedas basically provide a map of reality to you that we can use to navigate this world and get to our destination - self-realization. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. The greatest misfortune of the planet is that it lacks teachers to dissemanate this wisdom(they they exist in esoteric circles) and hence why a rivival of this enligtened culture is necessary. We need to learn the real facts of reality.

reply to post by Kailassa


I think the truth is in between. I think there were untouchables prior to British rule that had unsavoury jobs, but untouchabilty became a far more severe and amplified problem with British policies because entire castes were rendered unemployed, accounting for a hugh percentage of the population. You can see the same with dowry and Sati practices during Mughal rule. There is evidence that dowry and Sati was practicsed in Hindu India, but this phenomenon became far more amplified and severe with Mughal rule.

Corruption set in Hindu society around 5000 years ago which incidentally is the beginning of the age of corruption - Kali yuga. This is the period when we see a huge decline in the propserity of Indian civilisation and the decline of urban civilisation. At around 1000-500BCE we see many religious reformers appear to set things right(Jainism and Buddhism) and this ushers in a brief golden age known as the Gupta period. However at this point Hindu society becomes Tantric and ritualistic(this accounts for most of Hinduism today) idol worship explodes in society. This is in contrast to early Vedic society where meditation(as Jainism and Buddhism extol) and Philosophy was considered the highest path. Around 700AD, Adi Sankarcharya tries to resurrect Vedic religion with Advaitia Vedanta(non dualistic Vedanta) but his teachings are misinterpreted by his followers which miscontrue his teachings to mean the world does not exist - known as mayavadins and therefore nobody really needs to work. This leads to further decline in Hindu society and it falls to Muslim invaders. Then around the later middle ages new schools of Vedanta appear known as dvatia Vedanta(dual Vedanta) which preach a personal god and this users in an era of devotional worship which has been Hinduism since.

So basically Vedic/Aryan civilisation fell 5000 years ago. Since that time we have been in the dark ages. There have been many reformers since though such as Guru Nanak the founder of Sikhism which wanted to take Hinduism back to Vedic religion, but his efforts were later corrupted. Then in the 19th century Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda did a lot to reform Hinduism and were very succesful. It literally saved Hinduism from Christianization. It is at this point that Hinduism starts to infilitrate the West, leading to the birth of Theosophy and subsequently the new-age movement.

Some say the dark ages started to end around the 19th century and are coming to an end in 2012. It certainly looks that way if you see the huge spiritual renaissance in India today, and its operations around the world.

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by poet1b


You associasted Ellis with Hindu pride. He has nothing to do with Hinduism, he is a major researcher into Celtic culture and has written several books on Celts. He has provided plenty of evidence which shows Celtic culture has descended from Vedic culture. It is also widely accepted Celtic culture is Indo-European.

You keep bringing up genetic evidence to counter, but nobody is actually saying that the ancient britons are not genetically indigenious. So your argument is a strawman.

Basically what has happened is the Aryans arrived in ancient Briton and Aryanized them, as they did in many places throughout Indo-Europe. This is why you can find evidence of indigenous genetic families in places, which are practicing a non-indigenious culture. A bit like how Africans are practicing Chriistianity today which is non-indigenous to them. Their indigenous culture was replaced. Likewise, the indigenious culture of ancient Britons was replaced by Aryan culture.

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Indigo_Child]

This is a repeat post. Delete.

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by Indigo_Child


Once again, where are your links to back up your claims? You cite your opinion constantly as if it is fact, and all you do is undermine your credibility by doing this. On the question of time, and a finite existence of the universe, your opinion is currently on the loosing end of the debate, and has been for a long time now.

Do you have any technical experience at all? If you had any knowledge of physics you would know that neither the specific or general theory of relativity is even close to being proven. In fact most physicist consider the theories to be incomplete, and the perspective applied to time is one of the biggest problems.

Werner "Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a fundamental, inescapable, property of the world". Essentially, this means that it is impossible to verify that an event in space and time is observable by all possible observers because no event can be accurately measured in order to prove the discrepancy. Therefore, the greater probability is that any appearance of discrepancy in the time frame of observed events is due to the Hiesenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Do you know the difference between a principle and a theory? In addition, a well respected guy named Stephen Hawking put out a well known book titled "A Brief Moment in Time" which I quoted above, in which he claims that the universe does not have a beginning or ending. Hawking is also the guy who developed the idea of the Big Bang theory, which he now disagrees with.

By the way, the beginning an ending of the world is also an Abrahamic belief, so it is only natural that scientist who grew up with an Abrahamic belief system would search for a beginning and ending.

reply to post by Indigo_Child


Once again, where are your links to back up your claims? You cite your opinion constantly as if it is fact, and all you do is undermine your credibility by doing this. On the question of time, and a finite existence of the universe, your opinion is currently on the losing end of the debate, and has been for a long time now.

Do you have any technical experience at all? If you had any knowledge of physics you would know that neither the specific or general theory of relativity is even close to being proven. In fact most physicist consider the theories to be incomplete, and the perspective applied to time is one of the biggest problems.

Werner "Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a fundamental, inescapable, property of the world". Essentially, this means that it is impossible to verify that an event in space and time is observable by all possible observers because no event can be accurately measured in order to prove the discrepancy. Therefore, the greater probability is that any appearance of discrepancy in the time frame of observed events is due to the Hiesenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Do you know the difference between a principle and a theory? In addition, a well respected guy named Stephen Hawking put out a well known book titled "A Brief Moment in Time" which I quoted above, in which he claims that the universe does not have a beginning or ending. Hawking is also the guy who developed the idea of the Big Bang theory, which he now disagrees with.

By the way, the beginning an ending of the world is also an Abrahamic belief, so it is only natural that scientist who grew up with an Abrahamic belief system would search for a beginning and ending.



[edit on 7-5-2009 by poet1b]

reply to post by Indigo_Child


Time is most certainly progressive, while time may move in patterns, those patterns, while similar, are also always different, and all we know of history demonstrates this. There is no nothing, there is no beginning or end, no alpaha or omega, the world has always existed, and it always will. While the world will expand and contract, it will never end, only continue to change. All direct evidence supports this as reality, while all evidence that attempts to claim otherwise is primarily based on religious beliefs or immeasurable quantities.

Not only do the genetics of the Celtics show a very different ancestral background than the Aryans, their archeological records concerning circles demonstrate a different cultural heritage. The historical time line, and clear differences between what the tales of Druidic origin demonstrate about the beliefs of the Druid, and what the Vedics believe clearly show a distinct development. The site I linked to showing the Celtic influence on the world is in fact backed up by scientific evidence, and considerable other evidence, which I provided with another link. In addition, Robert Graves, who I also referenced, is a very well respected academic, whose work shows your claims to be false.

All you have given me is linguistic, which is not very accurate, and a popular historian who seems to have a very liberal leaning which explains his willingness to give all the credit to Vedic dharma.

What is clear is the the Druids and the rest of the Pagans were clearly into celebrating life, and enjoying their time alive, which is very different from what the Vedic dharma teaches. The Pagans did not seek out perfection, and were more obsessed with the mysteries of living and life. They believed that living life to the fullest, learning as much from this world in which we live, was the most important factor in order to make it to the next higher realm. This philosophy is very different from the Vedic dharma beliefs.

A correction on Heisenbergs’s uncertainty principle: Heisenberg says you cannot accurately know the position of an electron and its momentum at the same time. If you know one, your measurement for the other will be less accurate.

At the quantum level time cease to be real. This is what I have been telling you from the start. Both Newtonian Mechanics and Einstenian relativity admit time because they admit of a real observable world. In Quantum physics there is no real observable world, the observer and both the world are inseparable.

All you have done by bringing up Quantum theory is validate what I told you earlier; time is not real, it is only apparent. In the apparent universe it is just a property that the observer uses to understand the world arsing from priority and posterity and slowness and fastness.

If you are actually aware of problems in physics you will know that neither General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics are complete. The current research in physics is reconciling them using Super String theory. Superstring theory will demonstrate a universe exists which is not observer dependent, but observer-dependent-reflective. That is every observer is actually observing the same reality but from different levels. In String theory reality is really the vibration of quantum strings and the vibrations of the string appear in degrees of material manifestation. In each of these manifestations, space-time operates at different speeds and again depend upon the observers frame of reference. However, the observer does not create space-time with their observation, they merely observe a reflection of space-time which correspond to their frame of reference.

Now recall what I said earlier at the frame of reference where time has become infinite there are no more events and thus time ceases to be real. This is why time is not real. It exists only in relation to events measured by an observer.

There is no need to further debate this point. What I have you told is right. It’s just how it is. It’s already been worked out by the Aryans more than 5000 years ago. You can either learn from their wisdom or wait until Superstring theory proves it - if indeed you live that long. It is widely acknowledged today that Superstring theory is the future of physics.


Regarding the Celts. You have been presented more than enough evidence that ignorance is no longer an excuse. I also called you straw man last post. I suggest that you either refute the “liberal researcher” which has presented very good evidence that the Celts descended from the Vedics, or you put up, because you’ve clearly lost and now you’re arguments just look like pitiful and desperate nationalistic attempts to save British pride.

What is clear is the the Druids and the rest of the Pagans were clearly into celebrating life, and enjoying their time alive, which is very different from what the Vedic dharma teaches.

Druid verses:

Samhain Invocation

Dread Lord of Shadows,
God of Life,
and Giver of Life -
Yet is the knowledge of thee,
the knowledge of Death.
Open wide, I pray thee,
the Gates through which all must pass.
Let our dear ones who have gone before
Return this night to make merry with us.
And when our tim comes, as it must,
O thou the Comforter,
the Consoler,
the Giver of Peace and Rest,
We will enter thy realms gladly and unafraid;
For we know that when rested and refreshed among our dear ones
We will be reborn again by thy grace,
and the grace of the Great Mother.
Let it be in the same place and the same time as our beloved ones,
And may we meet, and know, and remember,
And love them again.
Descend, we pray thee, in thy servant and priest.

Vedic verses:

May the lord of light and bliss bestow us prosperity
May the guiding spirit of the firament
And the goddess of riches grant us prosperity
May the adorable and resplendent lord prop up
oh, spirit of invisible fullness
Thou bestow all prosperity on us

Bless that the heaven and earth
Invokes from the earliest time
Be helpful to our happiness
The mid-space be for our happiness
With health and charming appearance
The herbs and forest trees provide us happiness
The victorious divine powers of distant regions favour us with felicity

All the solar systems, all the vital principles
All nature bounties, all the men of intellect,
the sun, the fire divine, the pair of twin divines
Have been glorified by us
May you all ever cherish us with blessings

May the soft blowing breeze
Refresh and revitalise us
With its health touching
And so be the mother Earth and the father sun
May the medicinal extracts of the herbs help
Us become heathy

In Earth lie the sea,
The rivers and other waters.
In her food and cornfields have come to be
In her live all that breathes and moves;
May she confer on us the finest of her harvests

So long as I look on thee from around, O Earth
With the sun as friend, so long as year follows year, may not my vision fail.

O Mother Earth
Let thy bosom be free
From sickness and decay
May we through long life
be active and vigilant
And serve thee with devotion

Rejoice in all the moods of nature
Spring is the season flowers and scented breezes which gladdens the hearts,
Summer follows, and it has a beauty of its own
The rain with its dark clouds and dazzling flashes bathes the entire Earth with its splendour
Autumn and winter too possess their peculiar charm and beauty

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Vedic and Druid verses continued:

This is the first recorded Druid poem from ancient Celtic times.

I am the wind on the sea
I am the wave of the sea
I am the bull of seven battles
I am the eagle on the rock
I am a flash from the sun
I am the most beautiful of plants
I am a strong wild boar
I am a salmon in the water
I am a lake in the plain
I am the word of knowledge
I am the head of the spear in battle
I am the God that puts fire in the head
Who spreads light in the gathering on the hills?
Who can tell the ages of the moon?
Who can tell the place where the sun rests?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correlate: Bhagavad-Gita 7:8-12

I am the taste in the waters, O Son of Kunti.
I am the light in the moon and sun.
I am the syllable Aum in all the Vedas.
I am the sound in ether and manhood in men.
I am the pure fragrance in earth and brightness in fire.
I am the life in all existances and the austerity in ascetics.
Know Me, O Partha, to be the eternal seed of all existances.
I am the intelligence of the intelligent.
I am the spleandour of the splendid.
I am the strength of the strong, devoid of desire and passion.
In beings I am the desire which is not contrary to dharma, O Lord of the Bharatas.
And whatever states of being there may be, be they harmonious, passionate, slothful-- know they are all from Me alone.
I am not in them, they are in Me.



Who are you kidding the Celtic culture is not the same as Vedic? Certainly not me. Then yourself maybe?

I found some more "liberal" Celtic researchers saying exactly the same thing as Ellis. They are also saying what I said in the OP:

As humanity begins to break free of the Dark Age caused by Christian Europe’s conquest (military, political and cultural) of much of the world, it becomes obvious that the history taught by their culture leaves much to be desired. This includes the history of Europe itself which also had its own Christian invasion, conquest and colonization. Finally, scholars within Western culture are beginning to recognize what the scholars and other leaders of traditional societies have been saying all along, for many centuries.

I am going to briefly describe some of the latest findings regarding Indo-European culture. Some of this is theoretical. Some of it is proven to exacting standards. In the interest of brevity, I shall not attribute the following information to the proper academic form. Much of the material used is yet to be published, and is cutting-edge, but should become available soon.

My particular topic is the relationship between the Celtic peoples of Europe, their origin, their relationship with the Vedic culture, and a few other relevant facts and theories

The following are some of the main scholars working on the issue of Celtic and Hindu commonality and history: David Frawley, M.G. Boutet, Professor Yoshida, J. Monard, and Alain LeGoff. Many thanks to them and any others whom I may have missed

www.northernway.org...


More research here: metrogael.blogspot.com...

Scholars such as Myles Dillon, Windisch, Bergin and others have examined the grammar and syntax of the Old Irish and Sanskrit languages and have found striking similarities of structure, the details of which, though fascinating for the philologist, are too complicated to be explored here.

There are, however, many more examples of vocabulary, some of which we shall encounter anon. But this list should suffice to show that Old Irish and Sanskrit are astonishingly close, that the language and culture of ‘this scraggy isthmus of Europe minor’ as Joyce called it, Ireland, Europe’s westernmost Island, bears traces that stretch across the European peninsula as far as India in the east. We Irish are in a unique position with respect to Indo-European scholarship; we have a language and a mythology which is as old and probably older than that of Greece and Rome, a cultural heritage which links us like an umbilical cord with a pre-historic world. I should say at this point that Ireland’s Sanskrit heritage is deep and expansive in content, almost infinite in suggestion.

Is the world still flat on your end?

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by Indigo_Child


And you still have yet to post any links that back up your interpretations of physics!

How ever you want to interpret things, Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle essentially shows that the Theory of Relativity is based on measurements that could never be accurately made, and so the concepts of time and space not being absolute have no factual basis. In fact, all instrumentation is determined by uncertainty. If you have any kind of understanding of physics, you should know this.

The real clue is Einsteins response, that ""The Old One (God) doesn't play dice."

It is Einsteins belief in God that drives his theory. The belief in a finite beginning and ending are also beliefs that the Abrahamic and Vedic religions have in common.

The other elephant in the room you keep ignoring is that Abrahamic religions are descendant from Zoroastrianism, which is a much closer kin of Vedic Dharma than Druidism could ever be called. The whole pursuit of purity and perfection in these religions, combined with their disdain for Earthly pleasure is what clearly separates them from the pagan religions practiced by the ancients of Europe.

It is this pursuit and obsession with perfection that has resulted in the stagnation of all the societies heavily influenced by these Aryan concepts. China, India, Japan, the Middle East, and Catholic controlled Europe all suffered from this same fate of stagnation due to the unrealistic pursuit of perfection.

You make this statement.

So basically Vedic/Aryan civilisation fell 5000 years ago. Since that time we have been in the dark ages.

Sorry, but only the civilizations that pursue this perfect ideal have been in the dark ages for 5,000 years. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and Druidic societies all flourished and advanced humanity greatly over the last 5,000 years. Your attempt to brush aside the tremendous accomplishments of these other civilizations in one statement is a clear display of denial.

The archeological records and science shows that Western civilization is older than Eastern civilization, and I have already provided the links that demonstrate this, yet you continue to ignore them. Western civilization has consistently outpaced Eastern civilization not only in technology, but in social institutions as well, with the development of Democratic and Republican style governments.

The Roman and Greeks were pagans, they didn't pursue unrealistic perfection, they believed in celebrating the pleasures of life, and so they succeeded in advancing as civilizations, rather than stagnating.

Europeans need to remember their pagan past, and how successful the celebration of life has made them. If was the throwing off of the yoke of the Catholic Church and its unrealistic pursuit of purity and perfection that enabled western civilization to begin to advance again. The world needs to recognize that the celebration of life is key to advancement, and that needs to be remembered in order for humanity to continue to progress.

There is no reason to ignore the great wisdom and accomplishments of Eastern civilizations, but there is also no reason to ignore what held them back from progress.

We should continue to look for ways to progress, continuously forging newer understanding of the world, studying all aspects of civilization in order to advance our perspective of what works and what does not.

Well at least you are not hiding that this is just a white-pride issue for you anymore. You clearly are not concerned with facts. You would rather hold onto beliefs that make you feel better to be white, when they are contrary to facts.

Druids 5000 years ago

There were no Druids in ancient Briton or Ireland or Germany 5000 years ago. The Celts in ancient Briton around 600BCE and the early records of Druids around 200BCE

There is no evidence of druids predating the 2nd century BCE. Greek and Roman writers on the Celts commonly made at least passing reference to Druids, though before Caesar's report merely as "barbarian philosophers".[19] These writers were not concerned with ethnology or comparative religion,[20] and consequently our historical knowledge of druids is very limited.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

The archeological records and science shows that Western civilization is older than Eastern civilization

Really and what archaeology is this? The Indus Valley and Yellow civilisation of India and China are the oldest civilisations and contemporary with Sumeria and Egypt. There was no Europe(Western) then. Most of Europe was uninhabitable. If it had any habitation it was tribal communities which eventually got civilised by the Aryans.

Since when was Egypt Western?

Reality check: There was no Western civilisation until the Indo-European migrations. No Greeks, no Romans. Nada. Eastern civilisation(which includes middle Eastern) is the oldest civilisation on the planet and they appeared around 4000BCE.

There is no reason to ignore the great wisdom and accomplishments of Eastern civilizations, but there is also no reason to ignore what held them back from progress.

What planet are you on and which planets history do you have in front of you? It’s certainly not Earth. The Indian and Chinese civilisation are the most technologically, economically and scientifically advanced civilisations of the ancient world and their supremacy continued right up into the late middle ages. Even during Roman times Indian and Chinese civilisation were ahead of every other civilisation in every department.

No progress? Are you serious, or is this is a joke? If it’s not you just lost all your credibility in one go:

Indian inventions

Urban planning: Remains of major Indus cities (mature period c. 2600–1900 BCE) display distinct characteristics of urban planning such as streets crossing each other at right angles, well arranged rows of structures as well as neatly built, covered drainage and sewage lines, complete with maintenance sumps, running along backlanes.[134][135] Drains in the ancient maritime city of Lothal for example, designed to be able to take out the city’s entire domestic sewage and storm-water were mostly underground, and built to high levels of uniformity, whereby the slopes never exceed 1 in 10,000.[135][136] In terms of segregation, Lothal was divided into three districts: the citadel, the lower town and the dockyard, which were further divided into smaller administration centres, all having well planned infrastructure such as wide, straight roads along neatly arranged buildings to suit their purpose.[135][137]

Plastic surgery: Plastic surgery was being carried out in India by 2000 BCE.[101] The surgeon Sushruta contributed mainly to the field of Plastic and Cataract surgery.[102] The medical works of both Sushruta and Charak were translated into Arabic language during the Abbasid Caliphate (750 CE).[103] These translated Arabic works made their way into Europe via intermidiateries.[103] In Italy the Branca family of Sicily and Gaspare Tagliacozzi of Bologna became familiar with the techniques of Sushruta.[103]

Oven: The earliest ovens were excavated at Balakot, a site of the Indus Valley Civilization. The ovens date back to the civilization's mature phase (c. 2500-1900 BCE).[62]

Basu's theorem: The Basu's theorem, a result of Debabrata Basu (1955) states that any complete sufficient statistic is independent of any ancillary statistic.[162][163]
Binary numbers: The modern system of binary numerals appears in the works of German polymath Gottfried Leibnitz during the 17th century. However, the first description of binary numbers is found in the chanda sastra treatise of the Indian mathematician Pingala.[164][165]

Binomial coefficients: The Indian mathematician Pingala, by 300 BCE, had also managed to work with Binomial coefficients.[166][167]

Atomism: The earliest references to the concept of atoms date back to India in the 6th century BCE.[227][228] The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools developed elaborate theories of how atoms combined into more complex objects (first in pairs, then trios of pairs).[229][230] The references to atoms in the West emerged a century later from Leucippus whose student, Democritus, systematized his views. In approximately 450 BCE, Democritus coined the term átomos (Greek: ?t?µ??), which means "uncuttable" or "the smallest indivisible particle of matter", i.e., something that cannot be divided.

Linguistics: The study of linguistics in India dates back at least two and one-half millennia.[242] During the 5th century BCE, the Indian scholar Panini had made several discoveries in the fields of phonetics, phonology, and morphology

Panini-Backus Form: Panini's grammar rules have have significant similarities to the Backus–Naur Form or BNF grammars used to describe modern programming languages, hence the notation is sometimes referred to as the Panini–Backus Form.[247][248][249]

Formal language and formal grammar: The 4th century BCE Indian scholar Pa?ini is regarded as the forerunner to these modern linguistic fields.[239]

Pascal triangle: The so-called Pascal triangle was solved by the Indian mathematician Pingala by 300 BCE.[166][167]

Fibonacci numbers: In mathematics, the Fibonacci numbers are a sequence of numbers named after Leonardo of Pisa, known as Fibonacci.[188] Fibonacci's 1202 book Liber Abaci introduced the sequence to Western European mathematics, although the sequence had been previously described in Indian mathematics.[188] The so-called Fibonacci numbers were also known to the Indian mathematician Pingala by 300 BCE.[167]

Calculus textbook: The Yuktibhasa, written by Jyesthadeva of the Kerala school of astronomy and mathematics in circa 1530, is widely considered to be the first textbook on calculus.[170][171][172][173]

Derivative and Differential: In the 12th century, Bhaskara II developed the concept of a derivative and a differential representing infinitesimal change.[185]
Differential equation: In 499, the Indian mathematician Aryabhata used a notion of infinitesimals and expressed an astronomical problem in the form of a basic differential equation. Manjula, in the 10th century, elaborated on this differential equation in a commentary. This equation was eventually solved by Bhaskara II in the 12th century.[185]

Dock (maritime): The world's first dock at Lothal (2400 BCE) was located away from the main current to avoid deposition of silt.[59] Modern oceanographers have observed that the Harappans must have possessed great knowledge relating to tides in order to build such a dock on the ever-shifting course of the Sabarmati, as well as exemplary hydrography and maritime engineering.[59] This was the earliest known dock found in the world, equipped to berth and service ships.[59]

A list of Indian inventions:

en.wikipedia.org...

Chinese Inventions

Seismometer: The official, astronomer, and mathematician Zhang Heng (78–139) of the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD) invented the first seismometer in 132, a large metal urn-shaped instrument which employed either a suspended pendulum or inverted pendulum acting on inertia (i.e. ground tremors from earthquakes) to dislodge a metal ball by a lever trip device; this ball would fall out of dragon-shaped metal mouth into the corresponding metal toad mouth indicating the exact cardinal direction of where a distant earthquake had occurred in order for the state to send swift aid and relief to the affected regions;

Although it is recorded that the Han Dynasty (202 BC–AD 220) court eunuch Cai Lun (c. 50–AD 121) invented the papermaking process and established the use of new raw materials used in making paper, ancient padding and wrapping paper artifacts dating to the 2nd century BC have been found in China, the oldest example of paper being a map from Fangmatan, Tianshui;[8] by the 3rd century, paper as a writing medium was in widespread use,

Woodblock printing: The earliest specimen of woodblock printing discovered is a single-sheet dharani sutra in Sanskrit that was printed on hemp paper between 650 and 670 AD; it was unearthed in 1974 from a Tang tomb near Xi'an.[15] A Korean miniature dharani Buddhist sutra discovered in 1966, bearing extinct Chinese writing characters used only during the reign of China's only self-ruling empress, Wu Zetian (r. 690–705), is dated no earlier than 704 and preserved in a Silla Korean temple stupa built in 751.[16] However, the earliest known book printed at regular size is the Diamond Sutra made during the Tang Dynasty (618–907), a 5.18 m (17 ft) long scroll which bears the date 868 AD

Although evidence of gunpowder's first use in China comes from the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period (907–960),[30] the earliest known recorded recipes for gunpowder were written by Zeng Gongliang, Ding Du, and Yang Weide in the Wujing Zongyao military manuscript compiled in 1044 during the Song Dynasty (960–1279); the gunpowder formulas described were used in incendiary bombs lobbed from catapults, thrown down from defensive walls

A list of Chinese inventions:

en.wikipedia.org...-475

Ahem, what were you saying about India and China not progressing?

[edit on 8-5-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Indian and Chinese economy in history

1AD

Top 3:

Rank: Country: GDP(PPP): GDP share of world

1. India 33 750 [6] 32.9%
2. Han China 26 820 26.2%
3. Roman Empire 22 000 [7] 21.5%

1000AD

Top 3:

1. India 33 750 [6] 28.9%
2. Song China 26 550 22.7%
3. Islamic Caliphate 21 640 [10] 18.5%

1500AD

1. Ming China 61 800 25.0%
2. India 60 500 [6] 24.5%
3. West Asia 10 495 [8] 4.2%

1600AD

Top 3:

1. Ming China 96 000 29.2%
2.Mughal India 74 250 22.6%
3. Far East (excluding China, India, Japan, Russia) 24 088 7.3%

1700AD

Top 3:

Mughal India 90 750 24.4%
Qing China 82 800 22.3%
Western Europe 82 072 22.1%

en.wikipedia.org...(PPP)

India and China have been ruling the world right upto the 19th century. They have been the most richest, most advanced, most influencial civilisations in history. You better start respecting them.

Even at the height of the Roman Empire, the Roman Empire was dwarfed by them by a significant margin. There are Roman records of just how much their treausery was depleted with all the goods they brought from India.

Finally, the Greeks. The Greeks learned all their philosophy from the Indians. This is a fact which recent scholars agree on. There are even Greek records stating that the Indo-Aryans were their teachers.
Not only this the linguistic evidence is clear the Greeks came from India.

Ancient history taught in Western universities is a lie. They deliberately exaggerate the Greeks and the Romans to make themselves look great, when in fact they are not. They deliberately conceal Indian and Chinese history so that we don't find out their lies and realise like many great Western scholars did, that India is the real motherland of civilisation. India is practically where civilisation started.

Finally, I really need to comment on how warped your mind is. You are saying that India and China value perfection and purity, and you're saying that is a bad thing? Your world really is upside down. Stay away from Stormfront.

[edit on 8-5-2009 by Indigo_Child]

I already posted the links that show that Celtic culture and Western culture are far older than 5,000 years, go back and look for yourself.

Stonehenge is almost 5,000 years old, and it not the oldest circle in Briton aligned with the starts and built with an Earth based measurement standard.

Like I said, I am not British. I don't have ph negative blood, I have B+ blood, which means I am most likely Aryan, biologically related to Eastern Indians.

Stop trying to make this into something about race.

Edit

Oh yeah, and by the way,Wikipedia is completely without merit as a reference.

Here is another tidbit, Rome was the only civilization in all of Eurasia that had running water up until the 19th centrry, which shows how completely advanced they were over the rest of the world in their day.

This whole claim that China and India are the creators of modern technology is such complete dribble it truly is an abhoration. Yeah, the Europeans stole it all, they are really devils in disguise, right? Isn't that how you feel?

[edit on 8-5-2009 by poet1b]

Indigo, here is an article that tells of that catastrophe of about 5000 years ago. It seems to have been rather local, but big enough to cause major changes for the people.
Abraham

This give some interesting correlations between names of Abraham & Brahma and their wives,
Sara or Sarai and Saraswati or Sarasvati.

There was an Earth changing cataclysm that occurred about 11500 to 13000 years ago and it is well documented. This cataclysm is what sunk Atlantis, moved continents, cracked the Earth forming the Grand Canyon and the Fjiords of Norway, and upheaved mountains.

See, “When Earth Nearly Died” republished under title “Cataclysm”.
cataclysm

Excerpt from article:
“When the Earth Nearly Died carefully documents the fascinating story - which has never been told before in such detail - of how this Golden Age of peaceful conditions and equable climates ended traumatically in a tremendous catastrophe about 11,500 years ago. This was part of a cataclysm which disturbed the whole solar system, destroyed at least one sizable planet and its satellite, and also severely devastated Mars and Earth.

Among the fundamental geophysical effects experienced by Earth were a massive fracturing of the crust, a realignment of Earth's axis, elevation of new mountains, and widespread rearrangement of land and sea. These changes were accompanied by an appalling global conflagration, a gigantic flood, and what has been described as 'collapsed sky' conditions. A bombardment by debris from the disintegrated satellite of the destroyed planet added to the worldwide chaos.”

It is believed that the Mahabharata is describing and event that occurred before this major cataclysm took place.

Someone mentioned the Germans having been a “super race”. Part of their ancestors were the Cimbri or Cimmerians. Not much is know about them except that they were large people. That might be consider super compared to small people.
“Cimmerians” does sound a lot like “Sumerians” doesn’t it?

reply to post by poet1b


Nope, Celtic culture is not older than 600BCE in Briton according to records. Celtic culture is not indigenous to Briton. It is widely accepted by top experts in Celtic culture it is Indo-European and many acknowledge its Vedic roots.

The genetic evidence you presented is inconclusive. It is known for a fact that the Celts did not originate in Briton:

Celtic Britain
(The Iron Age) c. 600 BC - 50 AD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who were they? The Iron Age is the age of the "Celt" in Britain. Over the 500 or so years leading up to the first Roman invasion a Celtic culture established itself throughout the British Isles. Who were these Celts?

Where did they come from? What we do know is that the people we call Celts gradually infiltrated Britain over the course of the centuries between about 500 and 100 B.C.

www.britainexpress.com...

Earlier traces of the Celts are found around Germany and Italy. And Stonhenge has nothing to do with Celts. It’s just a bunch of rocks erected by prehistoric stone age inhabitants of Briton.

Sorry to burst your bubble again.

Oh yeah, and by the way,Wikipedia is completely without merit as a reference.

This is coming from somebody who linked an Irish pride web site to present their evidence. Stop being ignorant. All of the Wikipedia information I linked on Indian and Chinese inventions are sourced. So you have no excuse. Follow up the sources and you will get your validation.

You’re just coming across as a religious zealot now. You are not willing to accept anything that goes against your beliefs. If Celtic researchers say Celtic culture is Vedic they are “too liberal” If Einstein says time is relative, “it's just a theory” if information on Wikipedia contradicts what you are saying, “it has no merit”

No, dude were not all wrong, your much cherished beliefs are wrong. It’s just unfortunate that despite so many contrary facts, you hold onto them.
That is not a strength; it is a weakness. It shows you’re not mature enough to deal with facts. Its ignorance basically. You may as well close your eyes and ears and shout "lalalala, I am not listening"

[edit on 8-5-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by OhZone


Great links there Ohzone.

Yes, I think what has possibly happened is that the the Sumerians/Assiryans were a renegade faction that split of from the Aryans at some point(Mahabharata?) which would explain why when Zoroastrianism is founded suddenly the Deva(the shining ones) become evil and the Asuras(the negative ones) became good.

I think what really happened was after the cataclysms and the rupture of civilisation, various factions developed with competiting ideologies on how to run the world. On one side we had the Aryans with their values of freedom, democracy and harmony with nature, and on the other side you had the Sumerians with their values of greed, power and domination. Sadly it was the Sumerians that won out in the end.