Russian death squads 'pulverise' Chechens

Russian death squads 'pulverise' Chechens

www.timesonline.co.uk

THE hunt for a nest of female suicide bombers in Chechnya led an elite group of Russian special forces commandos to a small village deep in the countryside. There they surrounded a modest house just before dawn to be sure of catching their quarry unawares.

(visit the link for the full news article)

An article that details alleged torture tactics used by Russian special forces in Chechnya. Sad times we live in that we as humans behave like this.
I must question wether the International Community will be as vocal against Russian torture as the are against American torture.
My opinion is that all torture is wrong, way back in the day I remember being taught the Geneva Conventions in Basic Training. The drill intructors in those days made it quite clear that once someone was a prisoner we were responsible for everything that happened to that individual even if they stubbed thier toe while walking blindfolded, times have certainly changed.





www.timesonline.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

the timing is little weird.. it looks like it's internationally OK to torture by anyone who call's it war against terrorism and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Now as US has said that they torture, gooo Russia too and give out these mysterious no-name interviews with impeccable timing after this stuff is in the headlines and documents of torture methods spread!

The people who'd like to collect EARS from their victims just like in the damn junglewars are walking free out there. That's what is a scary thing.. not 'terrorists'. Or maybe all of this is just made to scare to keep people terrified at home, don't know.

This has happened in Russia for a loooooong time. Have you ever watched Spetsnaz training videos? If they're not already insane they will be by the end of training. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes not. Spetsnaz will always get the job done, no matter the cost.

Also, I'd tell you some of the methods they used on my grandfather's family to extract information during WW2, but I think I would be banned.

Well, I guess the whole world does need to unite in the fight against terror. And there always was and is NO compromise against terror, most likely because they are not willing to negotiate. I guess they are all brain washed.....It's either you give them everything they'er demanding or wipe em out. Unless anyone can brain wash em to being normal everyday civilians, we aint got no other choice but this.....By the way I am for anyone and everyone who proposes peace and liberty....

The article alleges that a serious war crime has been committed, yet offers absolutely no proof of any kind other than what some two people allegedly said. This article is rather unprofessional in that it basically relies on heresay about something that is likely a load of made-up BS. Nothing in this story makes any sense - including why two Russian special operatives would give an interview to British press regarding their alleged war crimes.

Britain is sheltering several high profile Chechen terrorists who are wanted in Russia for crimes. The British press is well known for presenting almost any news regarding Russian actions in Chechnya in a very negative light.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
An article that details alleged torture tactics used by Russian special forces in Chechnya.

"alleged" is key word here. Someone could well have made this stuff up to get some money from gullible journalist. It definitely sounds made up.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
I must question wether the International Community will be as vocal against Russian torture as the are against American torture.

Until proof of such torture exists - no. Sure war crimes have been committed, but no one documented them. On the other hand crimes like the terrorist attack in Beslan by Chechen rebels were very well documented. After Beslan it is difficult for anyone to speak out against Russian anti-terrorist operation in Chechnya.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
My opinion is that all torture is wrong

Torture is sometimes the most effective way to get things done. As such its use will persist in armed struggles around the world. Morality and righteousness can serve you only so long - eventually anyone will get fed up with it and take a shortcut to get the info they need.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
The drill intructors in those days made it quite clear that once someone was a prisoner we were responsible for everything that happened to that individual even if they stubbed thier toe while walking blindfolded, times have certainly changed.

What happens during drill and during real war are very different things. Any soldier will attest to that.

[edit on 26-4-2009 by maloy]

I would have to agree with Maloy. This sounds a bit concocted for sensational purposes.

The only item that I thought may ring of truth is if these men did in fact find videotapes (and we all know how Muslim fanatics like to videotape their handiwork), and then went berserk.

That is completely understandable.

Retribution is a great motivator, and a powerful well of strength that one can draw on for an extended period of time.

True or not, Speznaz has a history of not messing around. These are not people-oriented men. More of the task-oriented kind.

Odd though. A lot of that terrorist crap did dry up mighty fast.

Yeah this just the Illuminati doing their evil work to get us all thinking that the russians are evil and then they will put video cameras up in russia to keep YOU safe from suicide bombers that are female.

It is common knowledge that thousands of Chechnyans did disappear and were most likely executed by Russian troops. Torture was also use in the typical brutal Russian way. The one thing which seems obvious is that the Russian methods were effective the Muslim insurgency has been completely crushed.

I always used alleged until someone is tried and convicted. There are however more articles on the subject.

Russia attacked over torture in Chechnya

Chechnya: video evidence of torture


The problem with Russian war crimes or torture in Chechnya is that journalists who have attempted to document what happened tend to end up dead.

Russia: Politkovskaya Investigating Chechen Torture At Time Of Death

Slain Reporter’s Last Story Bares Chechen Torture

Russian Federation: Fear for safety / torture / "disappearance" of Makhmut Magomadov

This is more about the Hypocrisy of the international community and the media when it comes to reporting things about the America and American forces. For example a Spanish court wants to put Bush and Cheney into a war crimes trial while sending an alleged Chechen war criminal to the Russian Federation knowing full well this individual will likely face torture wether he is guilty or not.

Spain prepares to extradite Chechen to torture risk in Russia

I will still stand by position that all torture is wrong. As far as knowing what is drill and what is war I am well aware of the difference having been a soldier for 13 plus years. The laws of land warfare used to be taught very explicitly and were non negotiable as far as American forces where concerned, like I said times have changed much to the detriment to the American nation and its Armed Forces.
I think the person doing the torturing loses a bit of his humanity everytime he performs and act of torture and once that happens there is very little likelyhood of coming back to where life is normal. We are dehumanizing our own people with these tactics.
Even for me as a soldier, the face every person I have killed haunts me even though it is a war situation, There is a reason veterans who have seen the true horrors of war dont talk much about at and those who do speak about it tend to have not seen it close up and personal.

Once the soldier/ freedom fighter/insurgent throws up his hands and surrenders he/she should be treated as a POW wether he/she is entitled to the POW treatment or not. Those who are illegal combatants should be treated as such and given summary justice as allowed by the conventions at the earliest opportunity.

Chechen warcrimes and atrocities are well documented in this conflict also I most certainly do not suggest that they get a pass because of what Russian forces have allegedly done ( and yes I will use allegedly again until someone is tried and convicted )

Originally posted by maloy
Britain is sheltering several high profile Chechen terrorists who are wanted in Russia for crimes. The British press is well known for presenting almost any news regarding Russian actions in Chechnya in a very negative light.

And Russia is sheltering FSB agent Andrei Lugovoi, who investigators believe is responsible for the state sanctioned murder of Alexander Litvinenko with Polonium-210.

When the USSR dissolved, half the Chechnyan territory wanted to stay with Russia, the other half didn't. Russia has never had any qualms about using force to keep its empire in order.

There is no excuse for murdering innocent children. However there is plenty of blame to go around. IMO both sides, Russian and Chechnya forces, have committed war crimes.

In a country where journalists are professionally assassinated with alarming regularity, I see nothing in the article that stretches belief, leads me to think the agents are lying, or that the story was concocted by MI6 propaganda.

Interestingly enough, Litvinenko alleged many of the terrorist attacks in Russia were committed by the security services to consolidate Putin's power. Sounds familiar huh ?

Originally posted by Schaden
And Russia is sheltering FSB agent Andrei Lugovoi, who investigators believe is responsible for the state sanctioned murder of Alexander Litvinenko with Polonium-210.

Alexander Litvinenko was himself a Russian citizen and a wanted criminal whose extradition was sougth by Russia - he was not some innocent British citizen. That is what UK gets for giving state-sponsored cover for terrorists and criminals wanted by other nations and Interpol.

Also Chechen warlord Zakayev whom Britain shelters is not a simple murder or assassin - he is a recognized terrorist wanted by Interpol.

Originally posted by Schaden
When the USSR dissolved, half the Chechnyan territory wanted to stay with Russia, the other half didn't. Russia has never had any qualms about using force to keep its empire in order.

Oh and do you want examples of how Great Britain made efforts to cling on to its colonies and imperial territories? Chechnya has been part of Russia for centuries - and as such it is up to Russia to determine how to conduct affairs there. Did Russia interfere in North Ireland, or the Falklands?

Chechen separatism was not simply for the sake of freedom and independence. Radical Islamist insurgents from Middle East wanted to create an Islamic califate in the Caucasus - and spread war to surrounding regions like Dagestan and Ossetia. Plus Chechnya got a chance to be independent from 1991 to 1994, before Russia interfered. In those years it developed into a lawless state run by warlords and gangs, which constantly attacked neighboring republics.

Originally posted by Schaden
There is no excuse for murdering innocent children.

Tell that to the Chechen terrorists hiding in UK, which are wanted in connection with the terrorist attack on a School in Beslan.

Originally posted by Schaden
However there is plenty of blame to go around. IMO both sides, Russian and Chechnya forces, have committed war crimes.

That is true - the Chechen war was extremely dirty. However the article in this thread does not have any sort of proof to back up the rather absurd claims it is making. And what is even sadder is that this journalistic garbage comes from an otherwise respectable news source. Several factors point to the fact that what this article describes is BS.

Most crimes committed by Russia involved collateral damage from artillery attacks and bombings. Also there were some detainments without trial. All of these actions have likewise been used by the US and coalition troops in Iraq, and in fact in many other wars. So nothing to make a big deal out of.

Originally posted by Schaden
In a country where journalists are professionally assassinated with alarming regularity

Do you have some real statistics to back up your claim of "alarming regularity"? How do you define "alarming regularity" in a country with 140 million people and tens of thousands of journalists?

Originally posted by Schaden
I see nothing in the article that stretches belief, leads me to think the agents are lying, or that the story was concocted by MI6 propaganda.

"Innocent untill proven guilty" is how it goes, not the other way around. As for stretching the belief how about:

Why would federal agents admit about committing war crimes? There already were several war crimes trials in Russia, where Russian officers were convicted. No special forces agent is that stupid or reckless to place guilt on themselves.

Why of all people would they lay down this story to Wester media?

Why would special forces squads have access to artillery shells?

Plus the absurdity of some claims, which make Russians look like some savage barbarians rather belongs in an over the top action flick than real life.

Perhaps someone who wants publicity just told the journalist whatever BS that he wanted to hear.

Originally posted by Schaden
Interestingly enough, Litvinenko alleged many of the terrorist attacks in Russia were committed by the security services to consolidate Putin's power. Sounds familiar huh ?

Yeah, and 9/11 was an inside job.

Again where is any shed of real concrete proof? You can make up whatever sensational story you want, especially if you are a criminal seeking sympathy and asylum. That fact does not make the story any truer.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
For example a Spanish court wants to put Bush and Cheney into a war crimes trial while sending an alleged Chechen war criminal to the Russian Federation knowing full well this individual will likely face torture wether he is guilty or not.

The decisions on whether to extradite or not are usually based on politics. Spain's decision likely has something to do with that country wanting to improve political relations with Russia. Welcome to the world of politics - where hypocrisy is part of the job.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
I think the person doing the torturing loses a bit of his humanity everytime he performs and act of torture and once that happens there is very little likelyhood of coming back to where life is normal.

I think that soldiers in warzone, like Russian troops in Chechnya, who have witnessed attrocities committed by the enemy against their comrades (think cut of heads and limbs, constant IED and sniper attacks day and night, kidnapping and torture for ransom) aready left their humanity and morality behind. Almost no one has the moral stamina to endure such conditions and still fight a clean fight.

Unless you were in exactly such a situation, where you life is in danger 24/7 and every dirty tactic in the book is used against you, you cannot blame the soldiers. For Americans of current generation only Vietnam veterans come to mind, as far as seeing comparable conditions to Chechnya. Iraq and Afghanistan don't come close.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
There is a reason veterans who have seen the true horrors of war dont talk much about at and those who do speak about it tend to have not seen it close up and personal.

Exactly the reason why I think that the two interviewed Russians were either lying, or not real veterans. No way they would talk that openly to a foreign reporter about stuff like that.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Once the soldier/ freedom fighter/insurgent throws up his hands and surrenders he/she should be treated as a POW wether he/she is entitled to the POW treatment or not.

And when you know that your comrades who served in your squad and who have been taken prisoner by the said insurgent were tortured for a week and then were beheaded while still breathing, would you view the situation likewise?

reply to post by maloy


Thank you Maloy.

I would agree that the stress of being exposed to attack 24/7, observing atrocities against innocents, and seeing your brothers fall are strong motivators in destroying those who would conduct these atrocities.

It is unfortunate that many in the US consider a catastrophe to being stuck in traffic, spilling their latte, or having to stand in line to get their sporting event tickets.

But, with the way things are degenerating socially, they'll be getting their own lessons in reality in due time.

In the meantime, those who KNOW, will just have to patiently outlast their foolishness and tolerate their ignorance until that time comes.

And it always comes.

Originally posted by maloy
Alexander Litvinenko was himself a Russian citizen and a wanted criminal whose extradition was sougth by Russia - he was not some innocent British citizen. This is what UK gets for giving state-sponsored cover for terrorists and criminals wanted by other nations and Interpol.

He had political asylum. A criminal ? Please. They wanted him dead because he betrayed Russia's dirty laundry, not state secrets. You almost seem to be justifying his murder ?

Originally posted by maloy
Also Chechen warlord Zakayev whom Britain shelters is not a simple murder or assassin - he is a recognized terrorist wanted by Interpol.

Don't just blame Britain. Denmark wouldn't extradite him back to Russia either due to "lack of evidence". It's clear to anyone he would face summary execution if he were sent back. The fairness of the Russian legal/justice system has a fairly low reputation in the world.

Originally posted by maloy
That is true - the Chechen war was extremely dirty. However the article in this thread does not have any sort of proof to back up the rather absurd claims it is making. And what is even sadder is that this journalistic garbage comes from an otherwise respectable news source. Several factors point to the fact that what this article describes is BS.

What's absurd about the claims ? It offends your national pride ?

Originally posted by maloy
Do you have some real statistics to back up your claim of "alarming regularity"? How do you define "alarming regularity" in a country with 140 million people and tens of thousands of journalists?

Read this in its entirety:

www.cdi.org...

Journalism is a very dangerous profession in Russia. They're not getting randomly mugged and shot, they're victims of targeted assassination.

Originally posted by maloy
Why would federal agents admit about committing war crimes? There already were several war crimes trials in Russia, where Russian officers were convicted. No special forces agent is that stupid or reckless to place guilt on themselves.

The article said the operations were conducted on the premise, if they were caught, they would be hung out to dry. "Plausible deniability". Did the article reveal any names? Nope. The article is clear, the agents do not have guilt over it. They were "fighting terrorists".

Originally posted by maloy
Why of all people would they lay down this story to Wester media?

It's not like they could go to the Russian (Putin's) media !

Originally posted by maloy
Why would special forces squads have access to artillery shells?

Special forces usually have access to anything they need. How the hell did someone get access to all the Po-210 needed to kill Litvinenko ? You don't find that stuff at a drug store. It's a rare and valuable substance. I read the amount to poison him must have cost a fortune. (100's of thousands of £)
Somehow I doubt elite spetsnaz would have trouble getting artillary shells.

Isn't it odd that Viktor Yushchenko, the President of Ukraine, happened to be poisoned with dioxin, just weeks after winning his election against the Moscow backed candidate ?

Originally posted by maloy
Again where is any shed of real concrete proof? You can make up whatever sensational story you want, especially if you are a criminal seeking sympathy and asylum. That fact does not make the story any truer.

You're seeing things through rose tinted glasses. I'm not judging their actions, I don't have all the facts, but to dismiss the whole thing as a hoax is naive. Take care.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Schaden]

Originally posted by Schaden
He had political asylum. A criminal ? Please.

You can consider him whoever you want him to be, but to Russia and Russians he was traitor, and as such a criminal. He served in the national security agency, FSB, and he was given a critical task. He not only failed to follow orders, he reneged and then uncovered Russian state secrets to the West, and spread blatently false and defomational information.

As for "dirty laundry" - his task was to help bring oligarch Berezovsky to justice. In case you don't know who Berezovsky is - he was one of the most dangerous people in Russia who is believed to have controled a substantial portion of organized crime. Knowing the dealing of Berezovsky and other oligarchs, I am certain that the scumbag was sought by FSB for good reasons. As for Litvinenko - he was likely bought out by Berezovsky, and reneged for money.

Originally posted by Schaden
You almost seem to be justifying his murder ?

He is a traitor, and as such I don't really give a hoot about his death. It may not be justified in the eyes of international law, but Britain is in no moral position to accuse or criticize Russia. After all the whole affair was spun way out of proportion for political interests of certain groups.

Originally posted by Schaden
It's clear to anyone he would face summary execution if he were sent back. The fairness of the Russian legal/justice system has a fairly low reputation in the world..

And that may be due to the fact that the world knows relatively little about the Russian justice system. It is biased and unsubstantiated articles like this that give it a bad name. Russia has tried captured terrorists on many occasions, and since it does not have an active death penalty in force the maximum sentence they got was life in prison. Executions may have taken place in Chechnya during the war. However a high-profile and suspect like Zakayev would not be executed and would be tried in the open.

Originally posted by Schaden
What's absurd about the claims ? It offends your national pride ?

I just listed some of the absurd factors that stand out - did you not see them? And I am not offended by anything, but I do take issue with claims and accusations made without any sort of proof.

Originally posted by Schaden
Do you have some real statistics to back up your claim of "alarming regularity"? How do you define "alarming regularity" in a country with 140 million people and tens of thousands of journalists?

Originally posted by Schaden
Read this in its entirety:

www.cdi.org...

Firstable an average of 10 killed journalists per year is not that high, considering that Russia has tens of thousands of journalists. Second, average crime rate in Russia is very substantial, so it is not a surprise if the number of killed journalists is high compared to say US or Western Europe. the article itself points out that most journalists were killed as the result of regular street crime.

And yes many journalists are assassinated, but not by the government. Majority of assassinations in fact are ordered by either organized crime groups, or the oligarchs. There have been some assassinations associated with local politics, but not on the national level.

And going back to Berezovsky whom UK so patiently shelters - google the name Vladislav Listyev. It was the most well known and high profile assassination of a journalist in Russia. For Russian citizens there is little doubt about who is behind the killing/

Originally posted by Schaden
Journalism is a very dangerous profession in Russia. They're not getting randomly mugged and shot, they're victims of targeted assassination.

The article you presented states: "In many cases, as he says, the deaths are the result of street crime, to which all Russian citizens and visitors to the country are prone, or they arise from personal and domestic disputes."

Originally posted by maloy
The article said the operations were conducted on the premise, if they were caught, they would be hung out to dry. "Plausible deniability". Did the article reveal any names? Nope.

Russian military intel and internal affairs would certainly know and keep record of operations like this, and if they saw an article like this (if it were all true) they would have no problem tracking down the individuals that talked.

Originally posted by maloy
The article is clear, the agents do not have guilt over it. They were "fighting terrorists".

I know a number of people who served in Chechnya, some of whom are good friends of mine. Neither of them would ever venture to talk about what happened there. There is no sense of pride and no need to brag about what took place there. Those who have been there most of all want to forget about everything that happened. I could not imagine any Chechen veteran talking to someone they don't know closely about anything like what was mentioned in the article.

Originally posted by maloy
It's not like they could go to the Russian (Putin's) media !

Why would they need to tell it to the media at all? If these really are special forces agents, they should have it engraved in their brains since training to keep their mouths shut, and they certainly wouldn't succumb to the need to brag.

Originally posted by maloy
Special forces usually have access to anything they need.

Since military operations in Chechnya ended years ago, artillery equipment is not as easy to find in Chechnya as you think. And you are saying that the Special Forces went through a hassle to get a shell for a simple reason of killing someone? What are they some street vandals just itching to blow **** up? A bullet to the head and a ditch in the mountains would do the job perfectly and much more discretly.

Originally posted by maloy
How the hell did someone get access to all the Po-210 needed to kill Litvinenko ? You don't find that stuff at a drug store. It's a rare and valuable substance. I read the amount to poison him must have cost a fortune. (100's of thousands of £)

But what does Litvinenko have to do with some random chechen insurgent? Although I do admit it would have been interesting to see whoever killed Litvinenko try to do the job with an artillery shell instead of polonium.

Originally posted by maloy
Somehow I doubt elite spetsnaz would have trouble getting artillary shells.

But why use a shell at all? Just for the thrill of it? What is this a video game? Might as well try and shoot the captured rebel out of a canon, or drop em in a pool with sharks with freaking laser beams attached to their heads.

Spetznas are well disciplined and efficient fighters. They approach is to always do things as quietly and as discretly as possible. Hence blowing someone up with a shell sounds very farfetched.

Originally posted by maloy
Isn't it odd that Viktor Yushchenko, the President of Ukraine, happened to be poisoned with dioxin, just weeks after winning his election against the Moscow backed candidate ?

There is no agreement in the medical community about what caused his sickness. It could have been a number of things. For all we know, it was played to his advantage in overturning the elections and getting public support.

All these rumors about Russian assassinations make it seem like some Hollywood Dr. Evil villain, who can't just kill people - it has do be done as glamorously and entertaingly as possible. But reality often works out to be much simpler.

Originally posted by maloy
You're seeing things through rose tinted glasses.

And you are not? You are taking this article for a fact - when it is nothing more than an author presenting some absurd accusations based on what he heard from God-knows-who. All this is is a rumor based on hearsay - and there is a load of those on every absurd topic from any imaginable source.

Originally posted by maloy
I'm not judging their actions, I don't have all the facts, but to dismiss the whole thing as a hoax is naive. Take care.

You don't have any facts. Name one fact that you have about this story? Some journalist reportedly spoke to some dudes from another country who said they blew someone up with an artillery shell? To take that for a fact and base an opinion on that would be nothing short of naive.

I am not saying its a hoax. It is a rumor. And because it is a rumor about something as serious as a war crime, it should in no way be relied on as reality until some sort of evidence is presented.

Originally posted by maloy
He not only failed to follow orders, he reneged and then uncovered Russian state secrets to the West, and spread blatently false and defomational information.

I believe he was following his conscience. He didn't reveal military secrets. He revealed Russia's dirty laundry. Political corruptness, assassinations etc..

Blatantly false ? It's not hard to believe his accusations.

Originally posted by maloy
The article you presented states: "In many cases, as he says, the deaths are the result of street crime, to which all Russian citizens and visitors to the country are prone, or they arise from personal and domestic disputes."

It also states, "The greatest single cause of death among journalists remains homicide. " Hence my comment about it being a dangerous business in Russia. Many were killed for reporting politically incorrect things, like Anna Politkovskaya.

Originally posted by maloy
Russian military intel and internal affairs would certainly know and keep record of operations like this, and if they saw an article like this (if it were all true) they would have no problem tracking down the individuals that talked.

That's a huge assumption. The most secretive intelligence operations are not written down. They're carried out through word of mouth.

Originally posted by maloy
And you are saying that the Special Forces went through a hassle to get a shell for a simple reason of killing someone?

No I'm not. The article said the artillary shells were used to destroy the body and thus any evidence. They weren't used to kill, usually a bullet to the head was employed.

Originally posted by maloy
But why use a shell at all? Just for the thrill of it? What is this a video game? Might as well try and shoot the captured rebel out of a canon, or drop em in a pool with sharks with freaking laser beams attached to their heads.

That's just a stupid comment.

Originally posted by maloy
There is no agreement in the medical community about what caused his sickness. It could have been a number of things.

No agreement, except lab tests showing 6,000 times the normal level of dioxin in his body. It sure wasn't natural disease.

I'll close this post with a joke.

In America, you can always find a party. In Russia, the Party can always find you !

Russian Death Squads? Did they describe Americans the same?

Sorry but I have a very hard time taking such crap seriously.
Sure, they probably did commit attrocities or whatever, but come on, what ever happened to integrity and reporting the facts as the facts? Or is there a need to sensationalise a title to attract viewers?(original article not op)

and what about the USAF officers from barksdale who have ALL died in `accidents` because they knew the real location the `missing` nuclear warheads ended up?

but oh no the usa would never assasinate anyone since its whiter than white

I could accept the fact that they killed the women, but why did they kill the girls and non-combatants?

That is not war


That is genocide