conspiracy to keep people fat and unhealthy?

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


Check out the difference in size between vegetarian bodybuilders and meat eating ones. In fact check out the winners of Mr.Universe and see how many didn't eat meat at the time of winning. As far as i'm aware none of them at the time of winning were vegetarian or vegan.

If i'm wrong point it out and i'll happily eat that pie they call humble

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I agree with ya!

While I believe it is possible to gain significant muscle mass ona vegetarian diet, see here, I also know that to achieve optimum hypertrophy one must maintain a omnivorous diet. You just can't get enough variety of amino acids without meat, fish and eggs.

Back on topic, I do believe there is some conspiracy here but it does not take root in vegetarianisms suppressed benefits.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


I think i misunderstood you in my fervour to defend an omnivorous diets and it's benefits, my apologies.

My major, large, big erm gargantuan issue with studies that hit out at diets that involve meat is that they don't look at meat eaters that stay within the recommended amount of meat. By and large meat eaters tend to be an all or nothing people (like alcoholics). They either eat far to much or none at all. The studies are really misleading because of this.

I would love to see a government funded study, to follow people over 40 years or more who intake the recommended daily allowance of meat, or slightly below that. From there we could honestly decide the health benefits because at the moment we are comparing vegetarianism (a diet that is shown to cause some problems and some benefits) to a heavy meat diet (a bad diet).

I will finish this by saying i have vegetarian friends. One has MS (Multiple Scherlosis). She was encouraged to eat meat by her doctor. After eating meat her symptoms lessened. She is still ill of course but her condition is more tolerable and she now blaims her MS on her life long vegetarian diet. I don't know if that's true but i wanted to bring it up.

One of my other friends who has also been a vegetarian her entire life has major Iron deficiencies. She isn't an idiot, she eats a very varied diet and since her iron deficiency she has made sure to include iron rich food. Her doctors now prescribe iron tablets as her levels are so low and that keeps her just around even.

Two months ago, at the insistence of her boyfriend she started eating meat. Within 3 weeks her iron levels rocketed, her doctors took her off the pills and she is now living a good life, full of energy with only a small amount of meat.

I think the role of meat in the diet is really misunderstood.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


There are multiple things wrong with the aforementioned studies. First would be that they are Epidemiological, or simply observational. This doesn't discredit them; however, it does make them more susceptible to mistakes and misinterperetations.

Also, the media are quick to cite an epidemiological study as proving causality instead of taking it for what it is. Correlation does not prove causation. Unfortunately, journalists do not understand this concept.

Yes, some studies do show a correlation between meat intake and heart disease. Most fail to realize that most meats are consumed with simple carbohydrates as a side. Steak and potatos. Hamburger=Meat and Buns.

-Dev

It is important to consider a few facts here. Firstly, low income groups/unemployed are too poor to follow their ideal choice of diet and lifestyle.
Families where the parent/s have to work long hours in low income jobs, then come home and make the dinnner, help their children with homework, do housework, look at and juggle the finances and pay bills, and then, if they are really lucky, get to spend "quality time together as a family. Keeping the family together with a roof over their heads is the main priority.

Is it any wonder that so many people fall for the cheaper, quicker, less time consuming options. Thus ending up with health problems such as Asthma, Raised Blood Pressure, Diabetes, Obesity, Thyroid dysfunction, Depression, Digestive problems, Hormone Imbalance, etc etc.

In my experience as a Holistic Complimentary Practitioner, all too often I witness the mainstream mindset of "not taking personal responsability" for ones own health. People very often just don't connect the dots. This includes all sectors/classes of society.

"If the doc didn't tell me to reduce or omit it, then it must be okay"! So the doctor gives them medication, which causes side effects, which leads them back to the doctor, who prescribes something for the side effects. What a nice little earner for the system!

I'm not knocking GP's, I am however, unimpressed by my governments (UK) supposed efforts to create any meaningful change.

I can't help but see that it's all based on maximum revenue from the Drug companies and the Junk food industry.

Originally posted by maya27
"If the doc didn't tell me to reduce or omit it, then it must be okay"! So the doctor gives them medication, which causes side effects, which leads them back to the doctor, who prescribes something for the side effects. What a nice little earner for the system!

I'm not knocking GP's, I am however, unimpressed by my governments (UK) supposed efforts to create any meaningful change.

I can't help but see that it's all based on maximum revenue from the Drug companies and the Junk food industry.

There is a large flaw in your thinking here. The pharmecutical corporations make less from the UK government than they do say the USA. The reason is that our government forces the prices of medications down. If it's all about money then why would they do that? The NHS doesn't earn money anyway.

You are making ecsuses for peoples choices. The government can't really do more than it is doing. They have had major campaigns about obesity, healthy eating and making sure people exercise. Hey when i was at school there was a massive 5 a day program. If you want the government to do more than this then the only thing they could do would be forcing people to exercise at gun point.

I'm sorry but it's down to the individual if they're obese and your talk of taking away blame from individuals is just going to make the problem worse not better. Already people claim it's not their fault and look for excuses. How many times have you heard an obese person blame it on their thyroid and when you ask what they take for that they tell you they don't take anything. That's because there is nothing wrong with it, but their minds can't cope with being responsible and pass the blame on to something else.

That's very common in us humans, we can't usually accept things being our fault. The majority of obese people, and we're easily talking 95% and i would argue higher than that, are obese because they eat to much and exercise to little. It's a very simple energy equation, if you eat more than you burn off it gets stored as fat, if you burn more than you eat you lose weight. It's really that simple. The only time it gets messed up is with certain medical conditions and/or medications.

The junk food companies make disgusting products, but in the end people have to choose to eat them. Little kids of course can't compete with the barrage of advertisments so their parents need to decide for them and make sure they eat well.

What do you think the government can do differently? I'm very interested in hearing your ideas, if you come up with something really good i'd happily help you campaign for it.

Originally posted by rapunzel222
and ignorant about how really to lose weight and be healthy?

they say eat lots of fruit and vegetables. thats true. (and grains, nuts, seeds, beans etc), but they omit to say: DONT eat dairy, DONT eat sugar and DONT eat meat. (except i guess for eggs or if ur determined to eat meat - fish). The dairy bit is absolutely critical. so is the meat, really. read the china study by dr campbell if your interested in the reasons why. he is a scientists and has done lots of studies on rats; and large scale population studies. (there are a few big industries like dairy/meat etc that dont like his work much). the links between casein (protein found in milk) and lots of diseases - like cancer - are pretty enlightening.

also, obviously dont drink coke, soft drink, anything with aspartame in it like equal; caffeine (coffee) - green /herbal tea is ok.
make sure get enough protein by beans/chickpeas/lentils/corn etc.

its a bit hard to start out ; and its i guess, not as fun as kfc, but the info should at least be made public so people can make their own choices as to whether they want to be healthy and lose weight or not. follow that diet and you'll lose weight all right; it will fall off you. even w/o exercise. also u probably wont get heart disease or cancer or diabetes - or will cure yourself of them if you have.

people need to be getting all minerals too; often iodine deficient (seaweed); magnesium deficient (green vegies); selenium deficient (nuts - brazil nuts); calcium - figs/bread; vit d - sunlight - 15 mins a day; enzymes - q 10 - flaxseed oil etc etc. essential sugars/proteins. chinese herbs are a good way of getting your minerals u may be lacking and fixing any health probs too. mushrooms often found in the herbal combos can cure lots of th ings.

The only things I would change in this post is perhaps the title. I would add "and to prepare your body to fight against any future attack from the H1N1 Flu pandemic", (or future mutations).

The dietary advice for the most part is spot on IMHO with regard to
building up Immunity, whilst minimising the risk of Cytokine Storm complications. And Oily fish, or other means of getting Omega3- Olive oil, and others. Also Garlic, Garlic, Garlic.

The red meat, Mmmmm, well, if you can afford to buy some that hasn't had a traumatic and depressing life, pumped full of antibiotics, steroids, GM
feed etc, and hasn't been hearded up in an inhumane and prolonged terrified state to await its brutal death, I'm sure it won't do you any harm.

If you're a regular meat eater, you probably won't even feel the effects of the adrenalin that pumped through its body as it awaited the inevitable.
blow. But if you suffer from arthritis, you will most likely feel the effects of the toxins in your joints! Good Luck!

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Firstly, I'm not on a campaign. Too busy with work, family and voluntary work. But thanks for your offer ImaginaryReality.
It was never my intention to make excuses for laziness. However nor is it my intention to marginalize and judge them either.

And yes, I completely agree that children unfortunately often don't have personal choice.

It's just that in my line of work I regularly come across people in mainstream culture who hand over their health/power to the medical profession, who tend to (99%) of the time prescribe drugs/medication immediately. This so often results in side effects, which leads to even more pill popping, when a healthier diet and elimination of certain foods would usually solve the problem.

I would just like to see more people be empowered and feel more confident in educating themselves and taking responsibility for their health and wellbeing.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

Check out the difference in size between vegetarian bodybuilders and meat eating ones. In fact check out the winners of Mr.Universe and see how many didn't eat meat at the time of winning. As far as i'm aware none of them at the time of winning were vegetarian or vegan.

If i'm wrong point it out and i'll happily eat that pie they call humble

And how many of these meat eating bodybuilders are you going to check up on in years to come to find out how many of them go on to develop Diabetes or a heart condition?

Unfortunately, unless there is a history in the family of a condition, you may not realise that you are headed for a serious problem until it's too late.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by maya27

There is a large flaw in your thinking here. The pharmecutical corporations make less from the UK government than they do say the USA. The reason is that our government forces the prices of medications down. If it's all about money then why would they do that? The NHS doesn't earn money anyway.

You are making ecsuses for peoples choices. The government can't really do more than it is doing. They have had major campaigns about obesity, healthy eating and making sure people exercise. Hey when i was at school there was a massive 5 a day program. If you want the government to do more than this then the only thing they could do would be forcing people to exercise at gun point.

I'm sorry but it's down to the individual if they're obese and your talk of taking away blame from individuals is just going to make the problem worse not better. Already people claim it's not their fault and look for excuses. How many times have you heard an obese person blame it on their thyroid and when you ask what they take for that they tell you they don't take anything. That's because there is nothing wrong with it,

I am not "making excuses" but I do know that here in Britain we have a different way of checking Thyroid Function, They don't test the T3 in comparison to the T4, works out cheaper for NHS. The test is on an averages graph, so, often people won't present as being either Hyopthyroid or Hyperthyroid.

The Pharmaceutical companies are where the money is, don't kid yourself!

I have a few friends who are doctors, one of them in particular would have run over his grandmother to get that very well paid post within a pharma company punting anti depressants like smarties.

And no I don't want anyone to be forced to do any kind of exercise at gunpoint. We could offer them a coke and a mars bar as a reward instead though.

Read your own signature

reply to post by rapunzel222


Excellent topic.
I did not read through but I am replying to the originator's comments.
While I feel it everyone's own, personal obligation to keep themselves healthy, It is soooooooo hard, not to indulge.
Americans in particular have become so used to indulging themselves, that is practically all we do.
I remember 2 old sayings my grandfather used to say.
1. you should always leave the table a little hungry.
2. eat to live, don't live to eat.

Sound advice as far as I am concerned.
With all of the temptations, it is hard not to partake.

To tell you the truth, there have been times, that I would go into a fit of anger if I did not have something sweet. I have since broken from that addiction, and it was not easy. It is an addiction. Just as bad if not worse than drugs. I would sneak a gullet full of sweets when I thought no one was looking. There was someone though. ME!!

Good luck to any and all would be dieters.
*~

[edit on 10/5/2009 by reticledc]

Originally posted by maya27
I am not "making excuses" but I do know that here in Britain we have a different way of checking Thyroid Function, They don't test the T3 in comparison to the T4, works out cheaper for NHS. The test is on an averages graph, so, often people won't present as being either Hyopthyroid or Hyperthyroid.

I am fully aware of the thyroid function tests as many in my family have a low thyroid (hyothyroidism). They all started to gain weight but they simply ate less and exercised more and they aren't obese. Many people blame it on their thyroid when there is absolutely no evidence that they have a problem. If all the obese people who claim to have a thyroid problem do have one then we have a damn epidemic.

Originally posted by maya27

I have a few friends who are doctors, one of them in particular would have run over his grandmother to get that very well paid post within a pharma company punting anti depressants like smarties.

Read your own signature

I'm not sure what my signature has to do with it. That's about freedoms and we're talking about the obese blaiming things on anyone and everything they can except themselves. I also have a couple of doctor friends and they seem to be rather opposite your opinions. One of them hates antidepressants and avoids prescribing them whenever possible, the other recommends things like yoga, meditation and massages to stressed out patients before offering pills. I think you are unfairly painting doctors as pill dispensing, money grabbing fiends.

Originally posted by maya27
And how many of these meat eating bodybuilders are you going to check up on in years to come to find out how many of them go on to develop Diabetes or a heart condition?

Unfortunately, unless there is a history in the family of a condition, you may not realise that you are headed for a serious problem until it's too late.

Actually i used to attend a bodybuilding gym. There were peopel there who were currently preparing for competitions and others who were far to old and just keeping in shape. They are some of the healthiest people you will ever meet as they are obsessive about their diets. We're talking absolutely minimal fat, the leanest protein meals, tons of vegetables and fruit, no alcohol etc etc. I fear you are thinking that they're all red meat eating, walking time bombs of cholesterol strewn wrecks.

The only bodybuilders who are unhealthy are the ones who take steroids.

reply to post by maya27


I think it's quite a stretch to assume that meat is the cause of diabetes and heart disease in aged bodybuilders. You have to realize the stress that is put upon their immune, endocrine and nervous systems by being cosistently inconsistent regarding their diet and exercise plans.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I am fully aware of the thyroid function tests as many in my family have a low thyroid (hyothyroidism). They all started to gain weight but they simply ate less and exercised more and they aren't obese. Many people blame it on their thyroid when there is absolutely no evidence that they have a problem. If all the obese people who claim to have a thyroid problem do have one then we have a damn epidemic.

It's funny hearing people blame Hypothyroidism on obesity. The truth is, they've got backwords. Ever heard of a little hormone called Leptin? Leptin is produced by fat cells. The more fat, the more leptin. Unfortunately, overexposure to Leptin is now believed to cause Leptin Resistance, much like Insulin Resistance. Why does this matter?

Leptin ultimately controls the metabolism. When Leptin becomes abundant in the blood, the brain sends a signal to the Thyroid to release hormones that speed the metabolism which, in turn, usually results in fat loss/burning. The problem that occurs with individuals who are obese or chronically overweight is Leptin Resistance, as mentioned above. This means that even though there is a high amount of serum Leptin, it's not doing its job. We see the exact same problem with Insulin in type 2 diabetics.

So even though the body is producing high amounts of Leptin to stimulate the metabolism through hyperthyroidism, the body become resistant, Leptin can't do it's job and therefore Hypothyroidism ensues.

It's simple really. Hypothyroidism doesn't cause obesity, obesity and chronic weight gain cause hypothyroidism.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


Your ideas on hypothyroidism don't stack up though. You say at the end that obesity and chronic weight gain cause hypothyroidism, however all of my family are extremly lean and always have been that way. So what caused their hypothyroidism? As it's a family trait i would argue it's genetic on my mothers side as my great grandmother, grandmother, mother, and her 2 sisters all have it along with one male cousin again on my mothers side.

I can see what you're trying to say, but i'm afraid it isn't that simple, if it were it would be solved already. Unless i am missing something in what you're saying. Maybe you could provide a few peer reviewed articles that i can read

What i would agree with is that being obese can lead to hypothyroidism, not because of leptin but simply because the thyroid can't produce enough hormones to spread around such a large body, it tries hard but fails, just like the pancreas with insulin in obese people.

[edit on 11-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Your ideas on hypothyroidism don't stack up though. You say at the end that obesity and chronic weight gain cause hypothyroidism, however all of my family are extremly lean and always have been that way. So what caused their hypothyroidism? As it's a family trait i would argue it's genetic on my mothers side as my great grandmother, grandmother, mother, and her 2 sisters all have it along with one male cousin again on my mothers side.

Well, I would say that there are exceptions to the rule. There are obviously conditions in which the thyroid is unable to function properly; however, this would not be frequent as most people believe. Like you said, obese individuals are using hypothyroidism as an excuse when it is very possible that the problem doesn't originate with the the thyroid in every case.

There is no doubt that I could be wrong but you must understand that Leptin is a newly discovered hormone and its effects on metabolism are not fully understood.

I can see what you're trying to say, but i'm afraid it isn't that simple, if it were it would be solved already. Unless i am missing something in what you're saying. Maybe you could provide a few peer reviewed articles that i can read

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

These results indicate that leptin is an important physiological regulator of several endocrine functions in humans.

www.jci.org...

The consequences of falling leptin include suppression of reproduction, linear growth, and the thyroid axis, as well as activation of the stress axis (3). As with the mouse gene, mutation of the human leptin receptor gene can also cause obesity with central hypogonadism and hypothyroidism (9).

These studies clearly show that malfunctioning Leptin receptors(aka Leptin Resistance) can give way to hypothyroidism. And like I said before, Leptin Resistance is caused by an overproduction of the hormone which is prevalent in obese and chronically overweight individuals.

What i would agree with is that being obese can lead to hypothyroidism, not because of leptin but simply because the thyroid can't produce enough hormones to spread around such a large body, it tries hard but fails, just like the pancreas with insulin in obese people.

I would say that you're right and wrong. Yes, Leptin and Insulin are similair but the process your describing seems a bit unlikely. In the case of Type 2 Diabetics, cells are simply resistant to insulin and therefore the body must produce more to get the job done.

The hypothesis is that Leptin is similar to Insulin in that respect.

Insulin and Leptin are two of the most impacting hormones in the body. What makes them so important is that they are easily regulated by diet.

Good discussion, by the way.

-Dev

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Well, I would say that there are exceptions to the rule. There are obviously conditions in which the thyroid is unable to function properly; however, this would not be frequent as most people believe. Like you said, obese individuals are using hypothyroidism as an excuse when it is very possible that the problem doesn't originate with the the thyroid in every case.

There is no doubt that I could be wrong but you must understand that Leptin is a newly discovered hormone and its effects on metabolism are not fully understood.

I understand it's new, however we have to stick to the current scientific models until something comes along and proves it untrue. If the research on leptin takes off and is backed up by research then i'll simply drop my old beliefs on the thyroid. However there is one thing which is hard to debate here. When someone starts gaining weight and has a normal thyroid, it is because they are eating more calories then they burn. Even if leptin does what you asy it might do, without the food intake you cannot put the weight on, simply fact of energy.

The other thing that is hard to debate is that when someone puts on weight their thyroid gland has to work harder to produce enough hormone to spread around a larger body. At extremes this leads to the thyroid growing a goiter, a swelling of the thyroid gland as it desperately attempts to produce enough hormone for the body. The thyroid can only produce so much hormone before it has to wave the white flag and give up. If that happens due to someone being obese then it'll make the whole situation worse, but it isn't usually the cause of the original obesity in most obes people.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

These results indicate that leptin is an important physiological regulator of several endocrine functions in humans.

www.jci.org...

The consequences of falling leptin include suppression of reproduction, linear growth, and the thyroid axis, as well as activation of the stress axis (3). As with the mouse gene, mutation of the human leptin receptor gene can also cause obesity with central hypogonadism and hypothyroidism (9).

These studies clearly show that malfunctioning Leptin receptors(aka Leptin Resistance) can give way to hypothyroidism. And like I said before, Leptin Resistance is caused by an overproduction of the hormone which is prevalent in obese and chronically overweight individuals.

The studies were interesting but seem to have been conducted on already obese patients. The problem with that is the leptin might be higher because they're obese rather than them being obese because of the leptin resistance. This needs far more research.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

I would say that you're right and wrong. Yes, Leptin and Insulin are similair but the process your describing seems a bit unlikely. In the case of Type 2 Diabetics, cells are simply resistant to insulin and therefore the body must produce more to get the job done.

The hypothesis is that Leptin is similar to Insulin in that respect.

Insulin and Leptin are two of the most impacting hormones in the body. What makes them so important is that they are easily regulated by diet.

Type 2 diabetes is not just about insulin resistance. It can also simply be the body not producing enough insulin in the first place. Some diabetics are stupidly sensitive to insulin but produce very little. My own father has this kind and has had it for over 30 years.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Good discussion, by the way.

-Dev

Ditto.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I understand it's new, however we have to stick to the current scientific models until something comes along and proves it untrue. If the research on leptin takes off and is backed up by research then i'll simply drop my old beliefs on the thyroid. However there is one thing which is hard to debate here. When someone starts gaining weight and has a normal thyroid, it is because they are eating more calories then they burn. Even if leptin does what you asy it might do, without the food intake you cannot put the weight on, simply fact of energy.

Dr. Ron Rosedale is one fo the leading authorities in Leptin Research. Here's an excert from an article he wrote for www.diabeteshealth.com

Normally leptin's function is to reduce appetite and induce fat burning (among many other functions). That is what high leptin signaling in a brain does. Low leptin in the brain is an indication to eat more and store more fat (that is, to successfully reproduce, and to live long enough to do so). However, elevated leptin in a fasting blood sample indicates leptin resistance and, probably, low leptin signaling to some parts of the brain while other parts of the brain get the full high signal. In other words, some of the brain hears only a whisper, while other parts (of the brain and periphery) get screamed at. Neither is good communication.

Low-leptin signaling to the appetite center of the brain induces the brain to want to make the body hungry, and it alters physiologic functions so as to store more fat. Ultimately, increasing fat stores should manufacture more leptin to overcome the resistance. In the meantime, however, one continues to get fat and often obese.

So, now we get to why people are overfeeding and research seems to suggest that Leptin plays an important role. Without getting too deep, Energy In(calorie consumption) vs. Energy Out(calorie expenditure) is not always cut and dry. The calorie content dictates the results of body composition when calorie consumption is kept with 500 or so of calorie expenditure.

Adding Leptin to the picture, one starts to see the puzzle piecing together. Leptin problems are associated with high carbohydrate intake; Leptin problems that cause appetite and hunger. So, overeating occurs because one is simply hungrier which is ultimately brought on by carbohydrate intake.

The other thing that is hard to debate is that when someone puts on weight their thyroid gland has to work harder to produce enough hormone to spread around a larger body. At extremes this leads to the thyroid growing a goiter, a swelling of the thyroid gland as it desperately attempts to produce enough hormone for the body. The thyroid can only produce so much hormone before it has to wave the white flag and give up. If that happens due to someone being obese then it'll make the whole situation worse, but it isn't usually the cause of the original obesity in most obes people.

I won't argue with that. Sounds good to me.

The studies were interesting but seem to have been conducted on already obese patients. The problem with that is the leptin might be higher because they're obese rather than them being obese because of the leptin resistance. This needs far more research.

No doubt, more research is needed, indeed.

Type 2 diabetes is not just about insulin resistance. It can also simply be the body not producing enough insulin in the first place. Some diabetics are stupidly sensitive to insulin but produce very little. My own father has this kind and has had it for over 30 years.

Yes but, type 2 diabetes is typically preceeded by insulin resistance.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
So, now we get to why people are overfeeding and research seems to suggest that Leptin plays an important role. Without getting too deep, Energy In(calorie consumption) vs. Energy Out(calorie expenditure) is not always cut and dry. The calorie content dictates the results of body composition when calorie consumption is kept with 500 or so of calorie expenditure.

Adding Leptin to the picture, one starts to see the puzzle piecing together. Leptin problems are associated with high carbohydrate intake; Leptin problems that cause appetite and hunger. So, overeating occurs because one is simply hungrier which is ultimately brought on by carbohydrate intake.

Very interesting however i have one problem with what you say, when we talk of calories in and calories out we aren't talking biology, we're talking physics. If the energy in is less than the energy out the human body will use it's reserves. This is a simple fact, whilst leptin resistance may be a key, it does come down to will power for the majority of people. Obviously people on drugs like steroids will have a great deal of trouble. In the end this can easily be proven by taking an obese person, monitoring them 24/7 and watching their weight plummet. This has been down many times, even tv shows about obese people have covered it.

What interests me now is the idea that a high carbohydrate diet, recommended by western medicine may be harmful! Or maybe it's only the simple carbohydrates that are causing this problem and complex ones are still ok.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

No doubt, more research is needed, indeed.

Reading over it all again it really needs more money pumped into that research. I still hold fast to the opinion that the majority of obese people can control their diet with will power and they are simply lazy and weak willed. If that offends people then sorry but that is the stark truth.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

Yes but, type 2 diabetes is typically preceeded by insulin resistance.

Again yes and no. The modern eating habits we have often do cause insulin resistance as we have an abundance of simple carbohydrates which we readily shove down our throats. Just look at people who drink 2 liters of fizzy, sugar filled drinks each day on top of their usual food intake! I have no doubt that this would cause insulin resistance and that is why we're seeing mroe of it.

However saying it is typically followed by insulin resistance i am not sure about. Maybe we need to separate type II diabetics into two further groups. Those who are insulin resistant, usually due to diet and those who are not insulin resistant and it appears to be genetic or at least have a genetic factor.

A good topic - thanks OP!

There are many factors, and certainly I believe that there is a conspiracy element here, but only in the fact that fast food chains deliberatelt try to "hook" people into addiction by the use of sugars and simple carbs.

Alongside this is the lifestyle choice, as well as the lazy factor.

Put another way, I can make a healthy, balanced meal in the time it takes to get in a car and go to the nearest drivethru.

Media is also to blame - we are constantly bombarded with ads telling us how tasty this "food" is, and the problem is, some people believe it.

Education is the key.

We could kill two birds with one stone, and get rid of these leech-like corporariotns, use less resources and become healthier, just by the process of education.

Now if only we could get people to listen, instead of staring at the idiot box....

Originally posted by maya27

Originally posted by rapunzel222
and ignorant about how really to lose weight and be healthy?

they say eat lots of fruit and vegetables. thats true. (and grains, nuts, seeds, beans etc), but they omit to say: DONT eat dairy, DONT eat sugar and DONT eat meat. (except i guess for eggs or if ur determined to eat meat - fish). The dairy bit is absolutely critical. so is the meat, really. read the china study by dr campbell if your interested in the reasons why. he is a scientists and has done lots of studies on rats; and large scale population studies. (there are a few big industries like dairy/meat etc that dont like his work much). the links between casein (protein found in milk) and lots of diseases - like cancer - are pretty enlightening.

also, obviously dont drink coke, soft drink, anything with aspartame in it like equal; caffeine (coffee) - green /herbal tea is ok.
make sure get enough protein by beans/chickpeas/lentils/corn etc.

its a bit hard to start out ; and its i guess, not as fun as kfc, but the info should at least be made public so people can make their own choices as to whether they want to be healthy and lose weight or not. follow that diet and you'll lose weight all right; it will fall off you. even w/o exercise. also u probably wont get heart disease or cancer or diabetes - or will cure yourself of them if you have.

people need to be getting all minerals too; often iodine deficient (seaweed); magnesium deficient (green vegies); selenium deficient (nuts - brazil nuts); calcium - figs/bread; vit d - sunlight - 15 mins a day; enzymes - q 10 - flaxseed oil etc etc. essential sugars/proteins. chinese herbs are a good way of getting your minerals u may be lacking and fixing any health probs too. mushrooms often found in the herbal combos can cure lots of th ings.

The only things I would change in this post is perhaps the title. I would add "and to prepare your body to fight against any future attack from the H1N1 Flu pandemic", (or future mutations).

The dietary advice for the most part is spot on IMHO with regard to
building up Immunity, whilst minimising the risk of Cytokine Storm complications. And Oily fish, or other means of getting Omega3- Olive oil, and others. Also Garlic, Garlic, Garlic.

The red meat, Mmmmm, well, if you can afford to buy some that hasn't had a traumatic and depressing life, pumped full of antibiotics, steroids, GM
feed etc, and hasn't been hearded up in an inhumane and prolonged terrified state to await its brutal death, I'm sure it won't do you any harm.

If you're a regular meat eater, you probably won't even feel the effects of the adrenalin that pumped through its body as it awaited the inevitable.
blow. But if you suffer from arthritis, you will most likely feel the effects of the toxins in your joints! Good Luck!

Hmm, the title you say? Yeah, id like to think that. But ive grown very skeptical of late. Stuff like flouride in our water makes me skeptical. But anyway. i do agree that people can and should take responsibility for their own health and diet. but i am concerned that the complete message about how to eat healthy isnt getting out to people, with respect to meat, dairy and sugar. and i think a lot of people on this site dont agree about the meat/dairy bit, so that if it does happen to be true, which i think it is - then this shows that most people arent aware of it.

Oh, i agree that a bit of meat isnt going to hurt someone. (I still eat fish, and i think eggs are important). But the point is how MUCH meat are people eating. The point is that people dont know how much meat to eat, and we are all eating way too much for good health. Personally i am convinced by the arguments in the book that too much meat in your diet will give you heart disease and other illnesses. The ancient greeks believed this too, - i think i quoted either plato or someone else above somewhere about that ('a society that eats meat will need a lot of doctors' - i didnt say it, the ancient greeks did).

If people choose to eat meat as a garnish on a meal, rather than a significant portion of the meal - and only a couple (say two or three) of times a week - rather than every night, or most nights, then its probly not as bad. But yes, as you say, if you're going to eat it its pretty important you dont eat the hormone filled stuff, or the animals that have led an unhealth unhappy life- as (apart from the cruelty) its not going to be healthy to eat that. And hormones are getting pumped into chicken and cattle nowadays. Which is why i think its easier to avoid it if you cant be sure what you're eating - poss. why fish is better, altho even fish nowadays some has high levels of mercury in it etc...

Well, i totally agree with you about garlic. when im getting a cold or even a mild flu, eating a whole clove of raw garlic (e.g. on bread with olive oil and tomato - thinly slice it; or swallow bits whole with water), gets rid of it almost immediately. its powerful stuff. onion and garlic are good to eat every day in a salad if you can.

here's a good recipe for a salad to eat every day, to make sure you're getting lots of nutrients in the diet.

half onion, chopped
clove garlic, crushed or chopped
1-2 large tomatoes chopped
cucumber chopped
lettuce leaves or baby spinach leaves chopped
handful of almonds (or walnuts)
handful of seeds (e.g. pepita or sunflower seeds, or pumpkin seeds)
handful of flaxseeds if available (or flaxseed oil is good)
can add some chopped raw brocolli (finely chopped) if want
small tin of beans - (red kidney beans or mixed beans) - buy a good organic brand (or chickpeas)
can add corn kernels (either tinned or scraped off a cooked corncob)
avocado, chopped
limejuice (half a lime or to taste)
olive oil to taste
salt and pepper (sea salt or himalayan salt is good)
herbs (either fresh chopped mint, parsley, basil etc) or dried provence herbs or basil etc (fresh tastes better)


if u want to prevent cancer, a handful of almonds a day is good, so is an apple (but eat the seeds!), or apricot and the apricot kernel seed (altho it tastes terrible). Also ensure your iodine levels arent too low - or just eat seaweed regularly as part of your diet (try to eat a lot - like the japanese do - wakame seaweed is actually shown to be more effective in lab tests than a chemo drug