Holocaust is West's last Taboo!

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

And land of Israel is now Jewish because UN partitioned British province of Palestine in 1947.

Oh, we are going by UN mandates now?

GREAT!

Cause I got some more UN stuff for you to look at:

en.wikipedia.org...

This is a list of UN resolutions against Israel.


Can you really claim the validity of the UN mandate of that land to Israel while Israel completely ignores all other UN mandates and resolutions that do NOT favor Israel?

Seems to be a double standard here...


-Edrick

reply to post by Edrick


Once again, it is not clear to me why you drag the thread in certain direction. I am 100 percent sure that your opinion about Israel would not change even if Holocaust is downplayed and it was much much worse, for example. So what is the point to connect one to another?
Blame is on those who commited the crime. I see nobody saying that Palestinians are guilty in Holocaust. Nazis and their ideology are blamed, but we are clear that we are not its sympathizers already, so who blames you personally?
And as for origin of everything, show me that the Egyptians were first in Egypt. Or Sumerians in Sumer. Or Picts in Britain. Or whoever anywhere. People constantly migrate, fight. Nations appear and dissapear. It is the way of the world. Reichs come and go. So since you said:

I keep looking for any historical records that indicate that the jews came from that land...

I helped you out with that. So you found that Jews came from that land. No sane person would argue with you that Jews were not the first there. And no sane individual would be able to tell you who exactly was first there. Adam, Reptilians or Aryans.

For from what I can see, Jewish claims of that land being Jewish are based on the presumption of Jewish settlements predating other settlements,

I wonder where you saw it. I never did. Jewish 2000 year-old claims for this land come from Judaism. And since no other nation claims it for this long, this claim holds water. It still does not justify all the things you are surely going to throw at me.Again, i only say that there is justifiable Jewish claim for this land, older then any other currently existing claim.
And as for UN mandate - i only answer to your question. Why there is Israel now. What it got to do with Israeli-UN relationship after the fact?
Frankly, i see all you do is add negative points an d take the thread away from its purpose. I think that in 2 posts you would get to what Israel did in Gaza and how it is wrong. If my predictions would come true, i sadly cannot participate in derailing the thread further. Open your own and i would gladly
be a part of your Israeli bashing. Or a counterpart.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

I am 100 percent sure that your opinion about Israel would not change even if Holocaust is downplayed and it was much much worse, for example. So what is the point to connect one to another?
Blame is on those who commited the crime.

No, that is incorrect... I accept Factual evidence, I just have not seen any yet.

I see nobody saying that Palestinians are guilty in Holocaust. Nazis and their ideology are blamed, but we are clear that we are not its sympathizers already, so who blames you personally?

No, I do not agree with the philosophy of causing pain on one group for the bennifit of anouther... and this is why I brought the Palestinians into the discussion.

Yes, I steered the conversation this way.

No sane person would argue with you that Jews were not the first there. And no sane individual would be able to tell you who exactly was first there.

I was refuting your claim that the land belongs to People of Jewish descent.

As opposed to the Palestinian people who were living there before the nation of Israel was created.

I believe that this relocation and dispersion of these Palestinians is causing a great deal of animosity in that region, and I see that it will only continue to grow larger with time.

Why must Israel continue its expansionist policies at the EXPENSE of the Palestinians.

And just for the record, the UN mandate of 1947 did NOT grant the whole of the land to Israel, it only granted a portion of the land for that purpose.

Israel has expanded past that original agreement or mandate, and is pushing Palestinians out of their land.

Perhapse my question to you should have read: "Why do Jewish peoples (Israel Government) claim more land than was mandated by the 1947 UN charter"

Thank you for helping me clear that up.

Open your own and i would gladly be a part of your Israeli bashing. Or a counterpart.

Yes, that would be a good idea, But I think our conversation is almost done anyways...


Just the last question from above: "Why do Jewish peoples (Israel Government) claim more land than was mandated by the 1947 UN charter"


And, just to put this thread back on track... as far as questioning the holocaust...

Why is questioning the holocaust a crime in Germany?

-Edrick

reply to post by Edrick

Why is questioning the holocaust a crime in Germany?

I am not citizen of Germany, however my guess is that it is part of fighting Neo-Nazi groups who try to downplay the Holocaust and return to mainstream politics. You should ask this from German government/law officials though.

"Why do Jewish peoples (Israel Government) claim more land than was mandated by the 1947 UN charter"

War. There was a war in 1948 and as a result there was no second (after Jordan) Palestinian state. Parts of it were taken by Israel, parts by Jordan,parts by Egypt. And since in 1948 no Arab nation was willing to accpet Israeli existence in any borders, there was no reason (and no will too) to give the captured land back. Then in 1967 war even more territory was taken and due to the nature of the victory general approach of Israeli public and leaders was pretty much "we are the greatest/toughest/coolest so we deserve all we got". International politics were nore problematic so thus the term "occupied territories" was born. Israeli leadership (and public) did not want to release it and could not annex it due to international pressure. Thus Palestinians on occupied territories did not recieve Israeli citizenship even though some wanted in the beginning. Then after the 1973 war there was a realisation of problems due to hostile neighbours everywhere and principle land for peace was born. The reason why it worked with Egypt and not with Palestinians is not mainly borders. It is about refugees question and to lesser extent Jerusalem. By the way, nobody speaks about 1948 borders since almost half of Israeli population lives beyond those borders.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

I am not citizen of Germany, however my guess is that it is part of fighting Neo-Nazi groups who try to downplay the Holocaust and return to mainstream politics. You should ask this from German government/law officials though.

Well, that question was more about steering the thread back onto th original topic than specifically directed at you...

There are other countries that have made questioning the holocaust illeigal also, and there is a push to do this in the united states, as if there is something to hide that will not bear close scrutiny.

(I believe that this has something to do with the original topic of the thread)

War. There was a war in 1948 and as a result there was no second (after Jordan) Palestinian state. Parts of it were taken by Israel, parts by Jordan,parts by Egypt. And since in 1948 no Arab nation was willing to accpet Israeli existence in any borders, there was no reason (and no will too) to give the captured land back. Then in 1967 war even more territory was taken and due to the nature of the victory general approach of Israeli public and leaders was pretty much "we are the greatest/toughest/coolest so we deserve all we got". International politics were nore problematic so thus the term "occupied territories" was born. Israeli leadership (and public) did not want to release it and could not annex it due to international pressure. Thus Palestinians on occupied territories did not recieve Israeli citizenship even though some wanted in the beginning. Then after the 1973 war there was a realisation of problems due to hostile neighbours everywhere and principle land for peace was born. The reason why it worked with Egypt and not with Palestinians is not mainly borders. It is about refugees question and to lesser extent Jerusalem. By the way, nobody speaks about 1948 borders since almost half of Israeli population lives beyond those borders.

Yes, although this is not the answer I expected... it is a good answer (Truthfulness)

My follow up question is:

If the land taken after the wars of 48, and 73 was claimed by the government (and as you say, People) of Israel... where is the stopping point?

Is there a stopping point?

I can see how this sort of military expansionist policies would make Israel's neighbors nervous, especially since they have the backing of the US military.

Do you think that the Majority of Israelis would accept a 2 state solution, or full citizenship and returns for displaced Arabs? (Palestinians)

OR is there more of a push for Racial Segregation among the Jewish populous of Israel to have that nation be primarily (Or wholly) Jewish (Religion/Ethnic).

I understand that the Government of Israel is overtly for the racial segregation of Jews and Arabs for whatever reasons, but I also know that the views of the people of a state, and the views of a governing body of a state are not usually in harmony.

Do you see a split between the views of th government and the views of those that it governs?

And as a last question: How much Pro-Israel, Anti-Arab propaganda would you say is prevalent in Israel? And would you say that like in America, Israel is a primarily Media Driven Culture?

-Edrick

The fact that questioning aspects of 'The Holocaust' is a crime in several Nations should serve to show that perhaps there is something to hide?

No one is threatened with imprisonment if they question the Irish Potato Famine for instance and that was horrible for the Irish.

How much of a threat can old men like Zundel and Irving be??? Some of these guys are in their 60s for crying out loud!

Truth does not fear Questioning!

reply to post by Edrick


Almost 20% of Israel's population are Arabs.
Whilst the majority are Muslims there are also Arab Jews, Arab Christians, Druze and Bedouinn.

Whilst I think it's fair to say that Israel has a very aggressive foreign policy it is making efforts to integrate Arabs into Israeli society.
en.wikipedia.org...
Arabs have been elected to every Knesset.

Obviously there are internal issues but I think it is fair to point out that efforts are being made to promote equality for all within a democratic system whilst remaining an essentially Jewish state.
(Personally I dislike ALL organised religions but.....?)

Arabs increasingly represent Israel in various sports.

Israel differs little from every other country in that it has extremists of all kinds.

I am no Israeli supporter or apologist and abhor some of it's actions.
At times it's actions are not too dissimilar to that of those who sought to annhilate them.
The Israeli state is a master of manipulation and uses every trick possible to gain the sympathy and support of other nations. (Including I suspect blackmail and extortion).
However, I do respect it's willingness to stand up for itself in the face of much adversity. It is surrounded on all sides by equally, if not more, extremist and militant enemies.
They have to be strong or they simply will not survive.
That they 'cross the line' frequently is undeniable.
But it is equally unfair to criticise every aspect of Israeli society and liken it to a Nazi society, it clearly is not!

I think it is fair to say that the whole inception of the Israeli state and possibly the whole ME itself was mis-handled by the UK, UN, etc however, it was never going to be an easy problem to solve due to the inherent and inbred common hatred of each other by the concerned parties.
No solution would have pleased everyone and would have led to conflict.

But the actions of groups and people like The Stern Gang, en.wikipedia.org... and Manachem Begin en.wikipedia.org... who fought against Britain, and so inturn FOR The Nazi's and whose actions were little different from the self-same terrorists who Israel condemn today appall me.
That they have since practically been 'deified' by Israel blatantly shows the hypocrisy of Israel.

As I said previously; I know The Holocaust occurred.
I have been to Auschwitz and witnessed the evidence myself.
It was reprehensible and should never happen again.

Israel get's some bad press at times, unfortunately it stains the memory of all those who died in the camps with it's foreign policy and it's hero worship of murderers and terrorists.



[edit on 13/5/09 by Freeborn]

I was not there I therefore accept the terrible version that has been told to me that sixmillion Jewish Eastern Europeans were gassed in concentration camps.

But Iam confused why the other tens of millions of christians killed by Nazis and Russian counterattacking forces are forgotten.

Also the forty million Russian Orthodox christians executed by the athiest bolsheiviks ...why is this ignored by Hollywood?

Why are six million lives worth more than tens of million others?

I am perhaps naive but I believe all humans are equal?

Yet I have seen no movies released in Hollywood with subject matter being Stalins Victims or the Red Armies Victims.

Have I been misinformed ? Did Stalin not Execute christians?

Did Hitler not execute Christians in Poland Russia, ect ect?

This is an honest question as I after viewing TV for fifty years I am led on one hand to believe no one but the Jewish race or Gypsies suffered by the Nazi or Stalin murder factories.