Holocaust is West's last Taboo!

There is nothing wrong with Germans trying to kill their enemies.
Everybody does it.
The United States killed a lot of Germans, but you never hear about the German Holocaust.
How about the Palestinian Holocaust?

Originally posted by THX-1138
There is nothing wrong with Germans trying to kill their enemies.
Everybody does it.
The United States killed a lot of Germans, but you never hear about the German Holocaust.
How about the Palestinian Holocaust?

Actually, the sane route is to learn to live with your enemies. The "normal" route, to kill them, is part of the reason the world is in such a mess right now. Mass murder is wrong.

Originally posted by Loke.

But now again i just got to say, lets just stop talk about this, becoz the jews in Isreal uses this subject as an argument for all. Yes sure it was horrible but it was 60 years ago, and we never really acknowledge those 25+ millions of brave Russian people who died defending and fighting against the Germans in WWII.

And the country which resembles Nazi Germany the most till this day is funny enough israel who uses the same techniques to decimate the Palestinian people in Gaza, But all countries are so frightend to call israel antisemits and take them up on their war criminal charges....

So lets stop hang in the past, as long as the past´s victim has become the past´s´oppressor.

This is anti-Semitic propaganda and not even remotely true. Israel has a 20% Muslim population and has made every effort to accomodate the Palestinians and live in peace with them.

There are countries where outright genocide has been and still is practiced. The Sudan is the first that come to mind.

Jewish hatred equates Jews to Nazis and makes claims of Israel using the Holocaust as some kind of weapon for sympathy. Arab countries have attacked Israel in 3 wars and failed. The Palestinians refuse their own state when offered as early as 1948.

Read up on the subject instead of parroting the racist hatred lies.


Mike

The Holocaust= the label given to the Nazi regimes systematic genocide of the Jewish peoples.
Genocide= systematic extermination of a people.
My question why is it constantly called genocide, not Attempted Genocide?
There is a difference between murder, and attempted murder.
If their was absolute extermination; is it not logical to say that there would be no Jewish people to take up the cause of telling the Holocaust story?
Unfortunately in all wars, there are winning and loosing governments- the people never win!

reply to post by KRISKALI777


It has to do with the current usage of the term 'genocide'. Wiki defines it as:
'Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group'
(bolding mine)

So terms like: Rwandan genocide, Srebrenica genocide, Armenian genocide, Dafur genocide have all been used.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
The Holocaust= the label given to the Nazi regimes systematic genocide of the Jewish peoples.
Genocide= systematic extermination of a people.
My question why is it constantly called genocide, not Attempted Genocide?
There is a difference between murder, and attempted murder.
If their was absolute extermination; is it not logical to say that there would be no Jewish people to take up the cause of telling the Holocaust story?

OK, let's get real. Something like half the Jewish people in the world in 1938 were living in Europe, mostly the Eastern part. The other half were spread all over the world, with a large concentration in the US.

Some countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary,etc - had significant Jewish populations. A few years later they were all but exterminated.

It was as large scale and thorough a genocide as the world will ever see. Systematic and narrowly focused on any Jews in the region.

The Nazis were fighting on so many fronts simultaneously, with Russia, Western Europe, in Africa, and so on. It's amazing they allocated so much of their strained resources on killing non-military citizens who offered them little threat to their military goals.

Jews around the world, if unable to enter the military in their home countries, poured as much money and support as they could.

In 1945 the world Jewish population was half what it had been less than a decade before.

From what you are saying, every Jew in the world has to be dead, every non-Arab Sudanese person has to be killed, for the term genocide to be properly applied.


Mike

reply to post by mmiichael

Jews around the world, if unable to enter the military in their home countries, poured as much money and support as they could.

Yes, and I believe the Rothschild family (whom were also Jewish), were one of the funding corporations of The Nazi Party!
Gawdzilla could probably shed more light on this!

But alas; I thought the main problem of the Jewish people was "they didnt have a homeland"!!!
You see this is an example of the mild schizophrenia that they exibit!
They wander in the desert for 40 years (like Bedouin), then all of the sudden think they entitled to pull-up camp in a pre-existing civilization and take control; then when the rightful inhabitants resume control and fight back, they cry Anti-semite.
Read the statutes and tenants of "God", as conveyed to the Hebrews, by Moses in Deuteronomy Chapter 6; The commandments, tenants and statutes of God were to be followed.
Traditionally they have been on the wrong end of the stick because they think that following flawed ideals makes them more righteous and deserving??
And as a result, through the ages there have been many a culture that has revolted against their notion that they can buy there way out of anything.
You may be sucked-in, there are many whom are not!

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I guess that Australia exists forever, right? And was not a "pulled up camp in a pre-existing civilization". Mild - you say?
As for your general approach - there is no nation on this planet that in general did not do bad stuff during the history. There is no nation in the world that does not have criminals/murderers/powerfricks/corrupt/....
Life is not all roses. So why do you keep searching only for negative in certain foreign nation while totally skipping your own? Criminals near you should worry you more then Rotchilds for example. Or they live in Australia? Scape goat search?
And do not forget that since this scape goat search idea is as old as human kind - then you are not the first who "is not sucked-in". Those nations revolting were briliant examples of xenophobia and finding a guilty one. Actually not a single country that "revolted" and expelled the Jews had its common people living better.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Please read the opening post and know that we are discussing the enigma of the Holocaust!
If I have hit a nerve here with an unwelcome point of view; i make No apology!
You see, unlike politically correct society, freedom of speach does actually exist in some places I.E: this chat-room thread.
Unfortunately, some people are going to have opinions differing to the mass-excepted "safe" ones; without fear of being sued, jailed etc! booo-hoooo
At any rate if you would like to start a thread on the indignant treatment of the Australian Aboriginals, or American Indian etc, I will be only too happy to read, digest,and even comment where I see appropriate.
Mazel Tov

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Yes, and I believe the Rothschild family (whom were also Jewish), were one of the funding corporations of The Nazi Party!

Believe what you wish, but there is no evidence that the Rothschild family funded the NSDAP.
The major contributors to the NSDAP were the big German landowners and other agrarian interests, and small and medium sized businesses. The same people who had always funded the elements of the 'volkisch' movement.
A good source for details about NSDAP funding is:
Turner, Henry A, 'German big business and the rise of Hitler.'

Well, here is a video clip that deals with the arguments presented in the original post.

reply to post by Osmoses


Hi Osmoses, weather you believe it or not, there are plenty of other scholars whom believe the Rothschild Family fraternity were involved, in implementing finances and precedents of WWII.
Here is a quote you may (but probably wont; as you've already made up your mind), find interesting
There are many essays that involve this subject at our disposal; if only we care to look.

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Professor Antony C. Sutton, a distinguished scholar, documents the roles played by Max Warburg, J.P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller, Abraham Kuhn and Solomon Loeb (all connected to the Rothschild global financial empire) in the bloodiest, most destructive war in history. Prescott Bush, patriarch of two Presidents and connected to the House of Rothschild, was funding Hitler from America, while German soldiers were killing Americans. Bush’s company was seized under the, “Trading With The Enemy,” Act yet the Anti-Defamation League has never criticized the Bush family. Hitler and RothIsms a match made in the Holocaust

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Sutton's book mentions 'Rothschild' 3 times. All in a section about Hitler's alleged Jewish ancestry. The reference in this section is to Franz Thyssen's 1941 'autobiography' 'I paid Hitler'. This is a dubious source to say the least, as it was written by an American journalist while Thyssen himself was in custody in Germany. After the war Thyssen disputed its accuracy, suggesting the journalist had significantly embellished Thyssen's information.

Anyway, as I say, no mention of Rothschild in a financial context in Sutton's book that I can find.

edit: this has very little to do with the Holocaust and the context of the OP. Sorry for the derail if it is unwelcome.

[edit on 9-5-2009 by Osmoses]

The OP seems to be unsure whether to give an opinion, instead feeding us pseudo-evidence from questionable sources.

Reinhard Heydrich was the chair of the Wannsee Conference, which planned the annihilation of all Jews in occupied Europe and those under invasion plans. It is fact. Period. We have the evidence, detailed books of the list of Jewish populations throughout Europe. Did Hitler know about the final solution and what was implemented at the Conference? No one is honestly sure, certain SS guards suggested he didn't.

Why were the camps used for mass extermination?

When the Romans laid siege to the City of Carthage, and carried out ethnic cleansing of the population, the Roman generals rotated the legions in fear of psychological damage of mass killing. It was suggested, via eye witnesses, that a minority of centurions were driven mad and committed suicide. Exposing soldiers to large scale slaughter resulted in mental problems, "shell shock" or commonly known as post-dramatic stress syndrome.

Prior to the gas chambers, firing squads were used. Heinrich Himmler noted that SS soldiers were struggling to kill large numbers of Jews, especially children. Then, mobile gas vans were used - but the screams disturbed the guards.

Hitler's labour camps became the perfect tool. The Wannsee Conference believed the labour camps had the facilities and capacity to terminate humans on a mass production scale. The soldiers would never have to witness the deaths either.

To question it is facetious and unarguable. From survivors to Nazi guards, the testimonies conclude the Holocaust occurred.



[edit on 9-5-2009 by infinite]

Now, Technically a Holocaust is merely a WHOLE bunch of people dying all in one time period.

And yes... A LOT of people died during world war 2... some 60 to 70 million, actually.

I am sure that many of those that did were Christian... But we don't call this a christian holocaust.

I am sure that many that died were Muslim, but we don't call this a Muslim holocaust.

I am sure that most that died were civilians.... but we don't call this a non-combatant holocaust...


Current records indicate that 6 million jews died during world war 2...

While 14 million allied soldiers died to try to prevent that.

Could we call this a Holocaust against the liberators of the jews?

Many died from typhoid... but we don't call it a Disease related holocaust.


But anyways.... why did the UN give THAT particular land (Now referred to as Israel) to the jews?

Weren't there already people living there?

Didn't Jews live among the people of the world until that time?

I keep looking for any historical records that indicate that the jews came from that land...

And it always refers to the books of Exodus, of Genesis, or whatever...

Is that really historically accurate?

Burning bush?

Parting the red sea?

Really?

Am I missing some important historical records here?

Or are we basing world policy around the religion of one group of people...


-Edrick

reply to post by Edrick


Well - a lot of people died in WW2. From all the nations and ethnic groups. Even Hitler and Goebbels died. Not their ideas,sadly. One of their ideas was final solution of Jewish question. Not "Christian" question. Not "non-combatant" question. Not "allied soldiers" question.
Even in Poland, where Nazis killed a lot of Poles and actively promoted Germanisation of most of Poland and did ethnic cleansing - they considered that some ("worthy" ones) Poles would become Germans and others would simply work as slaves for their Aryan masters. Now the solution for Jewish question was a lot different. This is why third of Jews was killed in the war. And not third of Christians, non-combatants or allied soldiers. I hope that this answers your naive and certainly not-connected-to-nazi-sympathisers question number 1.
As for question number 2 - there is a thing called archeology. Also there is a thing called history. One has to be completely brain-washed to miss all thousands evidences for Israel being Jewish , at least at the time of second temple. I am sure that when ,for example, guys from Rome issued coins "Judea captured" - they did not think that they just won other some non-combatants.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

As for question number 2 - there is a thing called archeology. Also there is a thing called history. One has to be completely brain-washed to miss all thousands evidences for Israel being Jewish , at least at the time of second temple.

Do you have a source for this?

I would love to see it.

Well - a lot of people died in WW2. From all the nations and ethnic groups. Even Hitler and Goebbels died. Not their ideas,sadly. One of their ideas was final solution of Jewish question. Not "Christian" question. Not "non-combatant" question. Not "allied soldiers" question.
Even in Poland, where Nazis killed a lot of Poles and actively promoted Germanisation of most of Poland and did ethnic cleansing - they considered that some ("worthy" ones) Poles would become Germans and others would simply work as slaves for their Aryan masters. Now the solution for Jewish question was a lot different. This is why third of Jews was killed in the war. And not third of Christians, non-combatants or allied soldiers. I hope that this answers your naive and certainly not-connected-to-nazi-sympathisers question number 1.

With all due respect.... this thread is NOT about Nazi Sympathizers... it is about getting over the guilt and blame associated with the "Jewish" Holocaust.

You can wax poetic about the "Promised" land all you want... The Sons and daughters of Israel are treating the natives of that land with much derision and scorn.

Confiscating land, property, and destroying lives and life.

I for one am not going to turn a blind eye to the suffering of the Palestinian Arabs just because the Jews had it bad...

EVERYONE has had it bad, doesn't give anyone the right to take out their aggression on a completely unconnected party.

But all that aside, My research indicates that the Land of Canaan was originally an Egyptian province, whose culture was more diverse in composition than just "Jews"

So, once again... why (Besides "God said so") does the land of Canaan belong to the Jewish people?

-Edrick

reply to post by Edrick

And yes... A LOT of people died during world war 2... some 60 to 70 million, actually. I am sure that many of those that did were Christian... But we don't call this a christian holocaust.

Right On Edrick..... the cranky rabbit who calls it!
Exactly my sentiments, yet so often, those without the "Kahunas" to call it how it is!
Why do we have million+ $ monuments in the cemetries here in Oz; paid by the taxpayer if there is not some B.S conspiracy. Google Holocaust memorial Rookwood Cemetary; you'll see what I mean

And Jewish, dont think that I hate you, I DO NOT!!!
You are not above, not below anyone else.

reply to post by Edrick

Do you have a source for this?

Ok. The most ancient one - Merneptah Stele. Has "Israel" mentioned in it. +-1200 BC.
www.allaboutarchaeology.org...
Pottery with text in Hebrew 1000BC:
www.nytimes.com...
Babylonian chronicles (Nebuhadnezor) +-600 BC.
www.livius.org...
This is all first temple period by the way.
As for sources for second temple - it is in abundance. You can visit one in Rome for example.
en.wikipedia.org...
Or visit Israel and check numerous other sites. In almost any city.

is about getting over the guilt and blame associated with the "Jewish" Holocaust.

No it is not. You should check post by OP. It is on page one. It is about validity of Jewish claims about Holocaust, especially cyanide as a non-poison. Not guilt/blame. I think OP knows best what was the reason for this post.
And do not put words in my mouth too. You argue with your shadow, not with what i wrote, it is not correct thing to do. Where i said anything about Palestinians? On YOUR direct questions i gave direct answers. Now you dance around my answers and argue with something i never spoke about. I did not say that Holocaust gives anybody any right.Actually you did.
And land of Israel is now Jewish because UN partitioned British province of Palestine in 1947. No need for extensive research.
If you want to argue validity of existance of Israel,you can use numerous existing threads or open your own respected one. Why you use Holocaust discussion is unclear to me. British government promissed creation of Israel in British province of Palestine long before WW2.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

No it is not. You should check post by OP. It is on page one. It is about validity of Jewish claims about Holocaust, especially cyanide as a non-poison.

I would say that IS about blame.

OP is questioning the official story of the holocaust that has been BLAMED on people.

If the official story is WRONG, then that changes the guilty parties or BLAME... doesn't it?

OR at the very least, the Extent of the blame.

And do not put words in my mouth too. You argue with your shadow, not with what i wrote, it is not correct thing to do.

As for question number 2 - there is a thing called archeology. Also there is a thing called history. One has to be completely brain-washed to miss all thousands evidences for Israel being Jewish , at least at the time of second temple.

Whose putting words into your mouth, you claimed right there that the land of Canaan belongs to the Jewish people, and yet your evidence only stretches back to about 1200 BCE...

Alot more happened before that time, you see.

You see, you claimed in your first post that "One has to be completely brain-washed to miss all thousands evidences for Israel being Jewish..." so you claimed that first, before I refuted your statement.

The history of that area of land is in quite a heavy bit of dispute in prehistoric times, so your claim of that particular land of Canaan being "Jewish" is mere speculation.

And at the end of your claim of brainwashing, and all, you even state: "At least at the time of the second temple"

What about who lived there BEFORE the temple...

That is what I am asking, who lived there FIRST?


For from what I can see, Jewish claims of that land being Jewish are based on the presumption of Jewish settlements predating other settlements, and yet there seems to be evidence that the Jewish people were NOT the first settlers of that land.

Do you see my point?

Oh, and those "Judeah Captured" coins that you referenced... they are from 71 AD.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY after the fact.


Do you have any proof that Jews were the ORIGINAL settlers of that land, PREDATING Egyptian rule?

Something that would validate a Jewish Ancestry claim on that land?

-Edrick



[edit on 10-5-2009 by Edrick]