Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

Originally posted by msnevil
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

Considering that you are what society calls a jehovah witness. Let me be direct and ask, Those who do not accept the Watchtower society as the voice of jehovah, are condemned to be annihilated in the second death. correct?

WRONG, bible examples show that those that side with God even at the last minute with a faith that risks there lives, will be rewarded.

Think of the prostitute Rahab and all her family in Jericho, they risked there lives to side with God and were protected, even though they were pagans they found favor with God. There will be some that fall into that catagory when final Judgement comes. Of course no human can say who those ones are.

In alot of NDE the people seem to be judging themselves...with a eye that seems to just 'know' right and wrong. Im not dissing others faith in a book...but how do people just ignore such things, these are the closest things to real accounts of after lifle that we can get. There seems to be a flashing of times and moments in ones life....and they seem to look at their life with a 'judgmental' view....as well as I have heard these same experiences also judging the people that was in their life.

I just cant shrug that kind of thing off....as if there is no truth to it because it match the 'judging god'.

God might sit on the sidelines more then we would like to think for our own comfort of mind. God might be more of an observer then a action figure.

LV

reply to post by malcr


How do you know the Bible is a story book and not true? What if God chose to give us his message through written words and preserved those words in the Bible?

The Bible is intelligible, written over thousands of years by many different people and yet has the same overall message of who God is and who man is, its prophecies are accurate, it identifies good and evil, it is consistent internally with itself and externally with science and history, etc. It contains teachings that are completely different than man's because it was not written by man. The Bible itself claims to be the word of God and it is accepted by millions of people around the world as truth.

Personally, I have found that the Bible is true and I believe that it is the word of God. To me, a Bible written by man is way more mysterious than a Bible written by God.

Every time these types topics comes up there will be those that come into the threads and say we are wasting are time because the bible is a fairy tale.
Fair enough, if that's how you fee, go express yourself in other threads like this one
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This thread is not for that type of discussion, but for those that believe that the bible is indeed the word of God, but want to get into translation and interpretation of it. Which we have quite extensively in the last 10 pages.

And I thank all those that have contributed to the discussion regardless of what you believe about Hell, it's a discussion that is worth having, if nothing else we can expand our knowledge of the bible itself. Which Jesus tells us the value of.

John 17 verse 3
“This is everlasting life that they should have *deep, intimate knowledge of you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have commissioned. *(Greek: ginosko: know, perceive, be sure, understand)

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by Jazzyguy
If people use their heart, they'll surely know that a Loving God doesn't condemn soul to eternal damnation. But what I often see is, creed over deed, lust to hate over love.

Meaning.. that kind of religious people like to feed their hatred rather than the opposite. But why a believer of God does that, since it's practically appeasing "the devil".

Anger and frustration are supposed to be a temporary state. But they have become a part of people's character.

What would make you think a Loving God would make anyone spend eternity with Him if that person didn't want to?

Hello, first off I'd like to say hello and thank bluejay for this thread. I am a new user but I have lurked for several years. I joined because my son died unexpectedly Monday, April 20th. He was only 22 years old. Also, this thread intrigued me. I have been a Pentecostal Christian most of life but I love to listen to and respect all views and beliefs of believers and non believers and of all faiths. Now as a Pentecostal, I have always been taught that if you have accepted Christ and die you go to heaven, if not then hell immeadiately.....contiuned in next post. I'm limited in characters because I'm new! LOL!

Wow...I can see I need to fix my avatar too! LOL! In the past few years I have begin to rexamine some of my beliefs and rekindle questions I have had for years. I guess this thread helped me along. Many dominations believe that say for example you die as a believer/accepter of Christ you go to heaven then when Christ returns to rapture the dead, the dead in Christ rise and have glorified new bodies and meet Christ and the living in the air. But lately this sounds kind of redundant or complicated to me. I mean you die then go to heaven to be with Christ, then return to earth to your glorified new body which is risen and then meet Christ in the air and then return to heaven. I just don't understand that. I know there are numerous refernces in the bible that suggest when you die you are "asleep" or in a state of nothingness.

When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, He explained to the disciples that he is merely sleeping. When Jesus raises the centurion's daughter from the dead, He states she is sleeping. Now, I ask you this about Jesus' beloved friend Lazarus. If Lazarus was in heaven or in some paradise, wasn't it kind of cruel for Jesus to bring him back to this earth so he would have to further live his mortal life (again) and do his best not to sin and face a death again? This has bugged me for sometime.


Though blue jay, I do have this instance in the OT to ask you about. In 1 Samuel 28 Saul in disguise has the witch of Endor (a medium) summon the spirit of Samuel. Saul and Samuel hold a conversation. If you die and go into a state of nothingness, how could this conversation take place?

1 Samuel 28:14-20

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.


---hunger

Ahaaa...I am catching on to this. Star and flag for you blue jay and I have added you to my friends list.

---hunger

reply to post by hunger4truth


Welcome hunger4truth! Wow, I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your son. Hopefully the following passages can shed some light on this subject for you. Ultimately you have to read the passages for yourself and come up with your own conclusions. The following is my understanding of the sequence of phases in the afterlife:

Death -> Hades -> 2nd Coming -> Resurrection -> Final Judgment -> Heaven/Hell

Consider the following passages: (New American Standard translation)

John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." In this passage Jesus is talking with a Jewish ruler called Nicodemus and he says no one has been to heaven yet except Jesus who came from Heaven.

John 14:2-3 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." In this passage Jesus is telling his disciples that he is going to Heaven to prepare a place for them and will come back and take them to be with him. Because Jesus has not come back yet, we can assume that he hasn't taken anyone to Heaven yet.

So if one doesn't go to Heaven/Hell at death then where do they go?

Luke 23:43 "And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Here Jesus tells the thief on the cross that today he shall be with Jesus in Paradise. Now what does Paradise mean? Is it Heaven? Well if it's Heaven then we would have a conflict with the above passages because Jesus says that he will come back to take us to Heaven. So if it's not Heaven then what is it? Hades (Greek new testament word) or Sheol (Hebrew Old Testament word) the place of the dead.

So my understanding is that at death souls are taken to Hades (by angels maybe?) Hades contains a good part and a bad part separated by a chasm. (See Luke 16:19-31 which describes the Rich man and Lazarus in Hades) Personally, I think that souls are aware in Hades because of the passage that you pointed out in 1 Samuel 28 and because there is evidence that punishment/reward begins in Hades.

2 Peter 2:9 "then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" If the unrighteous are kept under punishment for the day of judgment then this suggests they are being punished in Hades. And the righteous get rewarded with Paradise while they wait for Jesus to return and take them to Heaven.

This is my current understanding of what happens to us when we die and like you said it is very different from what I was taught growing up!

For additional information click here:
www.douglasjacoby.com...

reply to post by hunger4truth


First Welcome to ATS as an active poster instead of a passive lurker, creating a thread that makes a long time lurker want to register to post is a great honor, and I am sure ATS like's it too .

ATS is my favorite forum on the internet now, the modding style is generally pretty good too. I find the people that visit ATS to generally be open to new idea's and not emotionally bound to the same old mantra we have all heard from both political and religious leaders for centuries. Often opposing sides when they seriously want to know the truth, arrive at it from different destinations and in different vehicles. But the truth is the truth and is doesn't matter how we arrive at it.

Second, sorry to hear about your son suddenly dying, when somebody dies close to us, it makes us think about that great enemy, death. Will we ever see that person again? This is a question that enters many people minds. My opinion of where your son is, the same place Lazarus was before Jesus brought him back, sleeping in death. All the information on him is stored in God's memory, he will be brought back to this earth at the appointed time, during the general resurrection of all of mankind that lived and dyed. This is what the bible teaches

Thirdly, to answer the Saul question, he went to see a powerful witch she had enough power to commune and summon demons. These could impersonate anybody, they also have the power to give answers regular humans can't give.

By the way, has anyone read anything regarding the actual location of Hades? I seem to remember that the ancients conceived of Hades as being "below the Earth" or in the center of the Earth, which might agree with the Bible's description of the "lower Earthly Regions" found in Ephesians 4:9.

Can anyone validate this?

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Virtruvious]

Originally posted by Virtruvious

Death -> Hades -> 2nd Coming -> Resurrection -> Final Judgment -> Heaven/Hell

I basically agree with that time line except for the last part

Heaven / Hell
should be
Everlasting Life / Non-existence

Those that were going to heaven already went up, because they have been helping to rule with Christ during his millennial reign.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Anybody who thinks God has to destroy the entire physical heavens and then recreate them again, really doesn't understand the bible at all. Not to mention the time that would take. Sorry, it is, what it is.

Yet if we read Genesis and apply the same logic you introduced me to earlier;

1000 years= 1 (24 hour day)
500 years=(12 hours)
250 years=(6 hours)
150 years=(3 hours) *
75 years=(1.5 hours)*
37.5 years=(45 minutes)
18.75 years=(22.5 minutes)
9.375 years=(11.25 minutes) (about a decade)
4.687 years=(5.63 minutes)
2.343 years=(2.82 minutes)
1.171 years=(1.41 minutes),

We can see that God can recreate a new Heaven and Earth in less than a second! He, literally, can imagine it into being! He can think it, and it is there!

The new heavens are created symbolically, not physically when Revelation chapter 12 happens, because the earth is still here.

Are you able to provide logic that explains how you know that John was speaking metaphorically when he refered to the new heavens and that the earth is still here?

And it is waiting for the same thing to happen to it, as we prey for in the model prayer
Matt. 6 verse 10
Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

When you pray the Lord's Prayer, do you reflect upon the words, why Jesus taught us to pray in this way?

It's talking about the current earth and the current heavens

God, was, is and ever shall be.

'Your Kingdom Come, Your Will be Done' refers to then, now and in the future.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

And I thank all those that have contributed to the discussion regardless of what you believe about Hell, it's a discussion that is worth having, if nothing else we can expand our knowledge of the bible itself. Which Jesus tells us the value of.

John 17 verse 3
“This is everlasting life that they should have *deep, intimate knowledge of you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have commissioned. *(Greek: ginosko: know, perceive, be sure, understand)

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Thank you for posting the Thread, Blu_Jay, it is a good discussion!

The Lord's Prayer supports John 17:3.

Deep, intimate knowledge of God is the everlasting life that we can have now, that is to come, and always was there. It is the Kingdom and we can invite it into our hearts now. It is our individual choice. God does not force us.

If we invite God into our hearts, we enter into a personal relationship with Him.

Once I had done this, I was liberated from the minutei of interpretations and translations and logic. All were suspended in the Peace that passes all Understanding.

Separation from this is a hell that I reject, by whatever name or esoteric tradition.

reply to post by teapot

I am just responding to the time line point, why do you think I put this in capitals, just before I posted the timeline.

So he is relating this specifically to the END TIMES, NOT CREATION. This is very important to understanding time lines.

Because I knew some Young Earth creationist would use it against me, and now you have. I just knew that would happen, again a discussion for another thread.


And your still reading it backwards anyway, God perceives 1000 of our human years, as 1-24 hour day would be perceived for humans.
For example from his perspective Adam sinned about six days ago. That's why for humans it seems like God is taking forever to fix all these problems.
But God basically told us by the end of the week(His week) I am going to have this mess cleaned up. So from his perspective he is fixing it pretty quickly. Also a person like Abel the first human to die, hasn't been sleeping in death very long at all, from God's perspective, again gone only around 6 days.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

This thread is an excellent opportunity to study and understand what Hell is and what it is meant to be.

Life: Human life has three complete equal parts-- Spirit,body(corpus), and Soul! We are a creation that has ETERNAL power! That means simply that our Human-ness was Originally designed to be everlasting!

Our Human spirit is eternal! Once created will last always, never to stop it's existance! Soul = our personality/desire/feeling/person-ness that exists within and forms our spirit self with our gifts given in our creation.aka attributes, abilites to be creative. Body(corpus) the phyical housing, male & female genders.

Corruption and Evil: Judeo-Christian beliefs teach, that the original man and woman were human beings created in perfection. Within the knowledge that if they trusted their Creator they would NEVER suffer!!
aka corruption aka fallen nature aka disease misforture. Perfect blissful existence with their Creator for all eternity. They chose to break the bond(agreement/covenant) and "sinned"! It was an exercise of their "FreeWill". This Choice immediately ushered "Corruption" into mankinds's existance!
Evil + Sin: were brought into existence just prior to the creation of the beings called Human. Sin comes from a rejection of the Creator's Will(GOD) by interdeminsional angelic beings. Lucifer(the most majestic created (angelic spirit being)+ followers refused God's will; fought God and were then removed from God's presence. They, Still existing, still having essence/life but now corrupted reality~ which similtaneously ushered in "Sin" and Death!
Death ="s Corruption ='s Grave= separation from one plane of existence and continuing on within the confines of our Spirit and Soul without the body! Corruption! aka outside of God's realm. (aka) heaven (aka) paradise

Humanity, now exists within a "fallen nature" where it experiences suffering, sin, corruption, sickness, wickedness, illness, hunger, aging, imperfection, death.

Death,The Grave, Sheol,Hades, Separation:
Prior to the Ressurrection of Jesus Christ/all humans that died were placed into an area (AKA WAREHOUS AKA TWO DISTINCT ABODES)
"Bosom of Abraham" and one for Torment! These HELD THE HUMAN BEINGS BOTH GOOD AND CONDEMMED! The were separated by a impassable abyss.
After Jesus Christ was risen and assumed into God the Father's presence; so to were the just (aka good human beings) taken in Spirit& Soul with Jesus.
Hell: IS a place created originally for the angelic beings that refused to obey God concerning HIS will for their interactions with Humanity!
It is a phyical place where there is fire, smoke, constant and eternal pain phyical suffering, spiritual suffering, soul suffering.
In Revelations Chapter 20 -23, all Human inhabitants of earth from the first to the last human born will be judged.
The Dead, existing in the abode of the GRAVE, SHEOL, HADES, will be brought forth reunited to the "corpus" human bodies and judged at the "White Throne" judgement. If they are NOT found to be worthy of God's salvation, then they WILL BE TOSSED(thrown) into the "lake of Fire" aka HELL along with the angelic beings. Those life entities ='s angelic and human, in hell , will suffer phyical, spiritual, emotional PAIN of fire plus the torment of THEIR rejection !!! Those who are found and given eternal existence with God will also be joined to their bodies and exist with Jesus in an eteranl experience of joy and perfection.

Therefore, please understand that DEATH, THE GRAVE, SHEOL, HADES are in existence along with Hell. AFTER JUDGEMENT Death, Hades, The Grave, Sheol, will be thrown into Hell; ALONG WITH THE CONDEMMED ANGELIC BEINGS, AND HUMANS! In hell they will suffer eternally, with phyical,emotional, spiritual torment!

Hell,Heaven and the new Earth will exist after judgement!

For a visual, go to the internet and seek videos of volcanic lava erupting! Do you want to exist there???

Accept Jesus

reply to post by TrustMeImaSalesman


This is where I need the icon of a face banging against a brick wall, we need one here.

reply to post by Virtruvious


Much of the bible's content was corrupted, changed and replaced. Darkness
has done everything they can to corrupt all the religions that promote the
belief in one God of Light. That's why it is better to base your knowledge on
your own spiritual experiences, than on a book that is important to humanity
sure, but is filled with flaws, lies and contradictions.

The bible and established religions are great for those who have the means
nor the desire to search for the real truth behind reality. But those who are
not satisfied with dogmas and corrupted and mistranslated scriptures, the
only way to find the truth, is to use the spiritual abilities that are inside all
humans. Such as leaving your body through astral projection, talking to the
angels of God directly, or the spirit guides that everyone has, and many
other abilities that were once labeled witchcraft. The people that chose to
develop these abilities in the past, were called witches and burned on the
stake, because the church did not want people to find out the truth, they did
not want people to find out that much of the church's dogmas are lies.

That's what I've been doing, I've been using my ability to leave my body
through astral projection, to find out the truth. I've met archangel Michael
in person, I've visited the bright realms of Heaven, I've been attacked by
demons and nearly lost my life.. but it was all worth it, because I found the
shards of the actual truth behind reality. What I know is still very limited,
but it's the truth at least. Some of my experiences matched with what the
bible says, but many of them show how many of the bible's texts are simply
wrong.

I was baptized as a Christian, and I believe in one God of Light, I believe in
Jesus Christ, in the angels of Heaven, and the demons of Hell. But much of
what the bible says about these things, is completely false. I believe these
things, because I have seen much of them with my own eyes, not because
the bible says they exist, the bible may be right about some things, but
about many other things, it is not.

I'm not saying to abandon Christianity, because it is important to be a good
Christian in this time.. but I'm also saying not to blindly believe anything that
old book says.. base your beliefs on the bible, but know that not everything
is the truth. Spend some time looking into your heart to find out what is the
truth, and what is not.

If something feels bad, like a soul being sent to Hell forever for having killed
someone.. then you know it's not true. If something feels good, like a God
of Light that loves all His children, and never judges or punishes.. then it is
the truth.

[edit on (24/4/09) by Wehali]

Thanks blue_jay and Virtruvious for replying to my posts and for the welcomes. I am ready to go to bed for the night and try and get some sleep. My son's funeral is tomorrow (Saturday). It has been a l-o-n-g week and will be a long night. I will leave tonight with some questions. How do we explain what happened to Elijah and Enoch? We know Elijah left the earth in a fiery chariot. Where did he go? Did he escape the sting of death? If Jesus is the only one that has ascended to heaven, where is Elijah and Enoch? If one believes that a hades exists with a "bossum of Abraham/paradise part and an area of torment part...are these two disciples there? If so, how did they get there when they did not die a physical death? The Bible does not indicate that they died. I can understand about "Enoch walked with God" that some believed he was a holy man that communed with God and this does not mean God took him off the earth while he was alive. But again....what about Elijah? OK one more to ponder. Peter, James and John saw Jesus' transfiguration and Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. Where were they prior to this appearance? I hope my questions are on topic.

---hunger

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

I am surprised to see the King James Version of the Bible quoted here. I didn't think that conspiracy theorists would trust a government sponsored translation!