TWO!!! 2!!! Raptures

There is so much debate on when the Rapture happens has anyone maybe thought there might be two? One pre-tribulation so the anti-Christ has something to step into and explain away, then a second before the Great Tribulation or before the Day of the Lord. That would explain why so many people are confused you know? Christ talks of the first fruits of spring and that we can escape what must come to pass. He also said he who endures till the end will be saved. So that leads me to believe there are two raptures. Any thoughts?

Also there are a lot of channeling websites out there with "ascended masters" some of whom claim to be the I Am and Christ Michael. When they tell people their ways they seem to contradict the Word. The Christ Michael figure says that the Rapture doesn't happen according to John Darby or Evangelical belief and that he will only return when peace is made in the middle east by men so he can confirm it. Who does THAT sound like. They claim that they are "space brothers." Sounds like the Galactic Federation of Light doesn't it? The great deception that God will send will be the day man finally makes contact. With the wrong guy, and the wrong "aliens."

Originally posted by watchtheashes
There is so much debate on when the Rapture happens has anyone maybe thought there might be two? One pre-tribulation so the anti-Christ has something to step into and explain away, then a second before the Great Tribulation or before the Day of the Lord. That would explain why so many people are confused you know? Christ talks of the first fruits of spring and that we can escape what must come to pass. He also said he who endures till the end will be saved. So that leads me to believe there are two raptures. Any thoughts?

yes 2 raptures are required for the pre-tribulation point of view to be true, however, i have studied this my entire life and pre-tribulation point of view was something developed to make people happy, to fill the coffers. this is not biblical, it is absolutely rediculous. ask yourself this question, has God EVER, EVER sparred his church from the refining fire? it says in the end of days God will come for a SPOTLESS CHURCH. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN without persecution and tribulation...There is no pre-tribulation rapture, it is a fraud. it is either mid-trib or post-trib.

Just listen to this bible verse carefully it will give you the answer you are looking for.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For we declare to you what the Lord has told us to say: We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have died.


we have are alive AND REMAIN.....WILL BY NO MEANS PRECEDE THOSE WHO HAVE DIED....


many will die before this event occurs....this event WILL NOT PRECEDE THOSE WHO HAVE DIED.....

FOR THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST THEN!!! THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR...


THERE IS NOT 2 RAPTURES. IT IS ABSURD.

prosperity gospel, fill the coffers, make people feel good, bring in the money....

rediculous...

Wasn't that Glactic Federation of Light thing about that woman having a so called "vision'' or something? I remember reading about that and about a massive ship supposedly coming on a day that has already passed. sounds like fraud to me.

Just a few Web Bot predictions for the coming year and one for 2010.

1) There will be a total economic collapse and 2009 will be considered as 'monumental'. The Bot guys claim this will be an 'epic situation' and a year of transformation.

4.) In 2009 there will be a 'global coastal event'.

5.) In 2009 a mysterious phenomena will begin to manifest. People will begin to simply disappear. The Bot guys claim this won't be like the Christian concept of The Rapture, where masses of people disappear at once. Instead it will be spread out. Many of the people who will simply 'disappear' will be some of the biggest movers and shakers, i.e. part of 'The Powers That Be'. The Bot guys claim these big wigs will be out with their bodyguards not because they fear terrorism, but because they fear becoming the next victim to this phenomena. The Bot guys also claim that such bodyguards will not be able to protect them from this phenomena, and that the bodyguards may disappear too.

6,) 2010 - 'Alien War', be it real or imagined. Yes, this is a reference to extraterrestrials. A lot of extraterrestrial activity in the future.

7.) Two whistle blowers have in their possession a device that may be extraterrestrial in nature. These whistle blowers are being hunted down by 'The Powers That Be' and their lives are in danger. These whistle blowers will come forward this winter and make headlines.

8.) An Evangelical Shame? - Some type of event will cause, according to the Bot guys, an 'unburdening'.


The Bot guys have also thrown in that the Hadron Collider is not a threat, that the upcoming elections will not provide much change, that 'The Powers That Be' will be more and more focused on Antarctica, and that there will ultimately be a revolution against the existing 'Powers That Be'.

reply to post by daersoulkeeper


"Something" tells me otherwise. Remember God's faithful church is what is called The Church of Philadelphia in Revelations. He will save a remnant from among a few others, but not much. The high standing not luke-warm Christians will not have to suffer through it. The luke-warm Christians will not be able to go until the second one, where you can refuse the mark of the beast and die as a beheaded martyr in Christ and be risen up. The Two Witnesses will be killed and taken to heaven just before this. Those that come to better repentance can guide those who are being persuaded to take the mark. I'm sure not everyone will be killed.

What the Spirit says to the Churches in the latter days.

Revelation 1:11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

Revelation 2:2 I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth

Revelation 3:8 'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.



Revelation 3:1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.


Revelation 3:15
"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot."

Revelation 3:16 "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

reply to post by daersoulkeeper


A mid or a post tribulation rapture would take away the immenentcy of Christ's return--something that is taught throughout the New Testament. This is because we would be able to tell where we're at in the Tribulation by the events going on around us, when compared to Revelation. Furthermore, a post-trib. rapture doesn't work because there wouldn't be anyone left to populate the millenial kingdom. There are events in heaven that go on to that require the rapture to be before the Tribulation. A little study of the Jewish Wedding will show this.

Also, 2 Thessalonians says that the Antichrist will come to power once the restrainer is removed. This restrainer can be none other than the Holy Spirit. The Antichrist comes when the restrainer is gone, with the restrainer being the Holy Spirit, who lives inside all believers. So either believers lose the Holy Spirit [which is promised to not happen] or the believers get out of dodge!

Also, according to Paul in 1 Corithians, there is only one rapture because all are translated in the twinkling of an eye.

I'm serious I really think there will be two raptures. Maybe the second one will be pre-wrath or maybe it will be the beheaded saints. Anyone who turns to Christ will leave with him when he returns as a resurrection saint. Second rapture. The first will happen beforehand, otherwise how can the anti-Christ come to power if the Church of Philadelphia is not out of the way?

I can't stand the whole Rapture theory! Read your bible and learn!

1 Thessalonians 5:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the TRUMPET OF GOD. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Note here that the trumpet of God is mentioned. Just what is the trumpet of God? Well, let's first look at some other scripture similar to this event.

Matthew 24:29-31
29: Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And He will send His angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

and this one too...

1 Corinthians 16:51-52
51: Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-
52: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

Now, all of these verses explain the same event... the resurrection of the saints and the meeting in the sky with Jesus. Each verse explains just before this resurrection there is a trumpet sounding off. Matthew explains the sound of "A" trumpet. 1 Thessalonians explains the sounding of the "Trumpet of God". 1 Corinthians explains the trumpet as "The Last Trumpet." So what is this trumpet? Once explained, there is no denying the truth.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

This seventh angel that sounded, actually sounded the "Last Trumpet" or 7th trumpet. This trumpet is also known as the "trumpet of God". No other trumpet in the bible has the kind of significance as the 7th trumpet of revelation. Compare this with the Matthew 24:29 verse beginning with "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" and it's undeniable that the rapture theory is post-tribulation and the rapture itself is nothing more than the FIRST RESURRECTION which is the resurrection of the saints or the resurrection to everlasting life. The second resurrection happens after the 1000 years of peace on earth under the rule of Christ and is a fleshly resurrection to judgement. Not all will suffer hellfire in this resurrection and those that do, will "surely die" and not suffer forever. The lake of fire is known in revelation as the second death.

This along with the fact that the saints resurrected and changed to meet Jesus in the air, will not be carried off to heaven, but will meet Jesus in the clouds and continue escorting Him to His decent to earth to usher in the new melennium. If you actually read the context of this verse in true greek form, you'll find that the words used describe a "meeting" or "greeting" while escorting a King into the city. As was Jewish custom of those times, the loyal followers of a king would go out to meet the king and escort him back to the city walls. The passage in Thessalonians was meant to comfort the people of the church in Thessalonica because their loved ones were dying with no sign of Christ having returned. They were worried that their dead loved ones would not get to see the paradise promised by Christ. Paul is simply stating that the dead in Christ shall not sleep forever because even Jesus was resurrected to life. Christ was only the firstfruits of the resurrection.

There are a lot of arguments used in rapture threads for both sides but face the facts that the scripture is not clear on pre-trib but it is undeniable there will be a post-trib resurrection and change.

reply to post by Locoman8


The Rapture is one of the most misunderstood doctrines, and I don't call it that.

It basically applies to those called to heaven and there life is ended earlier than normal to go to heaven because there function on earth is no longer needed. It has not yet happened yet. We don't know when it will occur. It could be at the beginning of the great tribulation of on the other side of it, like you said.

But very, very few will experience this. It would most likely happen at night when they fall asleep, they will wake up in heaven, a painless easy transition.

When the few physical bodies are found dead in there bed one morning all at the same time, people will know what happened.

And I know I am not among this group going to heaven.

To the OP
As for the two rapture part you are getting the general first resurrection part mixed up with the rapture, the first resurrection started after God helped Jesus created a new heavens as the model prayer talks about, not a new physical heaven, but a spiritual one, he did this with a war in heaven evicting Satan the great dragon and all his demons from the heavenly realm.
This prepared the way for the first resurrection, and ties into the trumpet blast's in Revelation that have already been quoted. So right after the war in heaven those like Jesus Apostles that had been sleeping in death were resurrected to heaven, this has already happened, and they are already there serving the Christ like they did when they were on earth.

I will respectfully disagree with much of what you say. What you are saying is much of the JWs doctrinal beliefs and are not defined in the bible as most clear-cut doctrine is. I agree with much of the JWs doctrine but not the whole 1914/saints already in heaven/Michael is Jesus theories. What everyone thinks is the rapture is nothing more than the first resurrection which happens at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to earth.

Some body asked me a great question the other day. “Does Scripture actually promise a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or is it just an opinion passed along from teacher to student?” Then he challenged me to cite even one Bible verse that would lead a person to believe the Pre-Trib position if they hadn’t already heard about it from some Bible teacher. He said that in all his studies he’s not been able to find one. Let’s see if he’s right. First, Some General Points

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matt. 24:29-30 says it will happen immediately after the Great Tribulation and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky. Membership in the Church and therefore participation in the Rapture is contingent upon having personally accepted the Lord’s death as payment in full for your sins. While His death actually purchased full pardons for everyone, we each have to personally ask to have ours activated. Everyone who asks for salvation receives an unconditional, irrevocable “Yes!” (Matt. 7:7-8, John 3:16, Ephes. 1:13-14) For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. (2 Corinth. 1:20)

It’s Greek To Me

And finally, although cynics can truthfully say that the word Rapture doesn’t appear in any passage of Scripture, the statement is not correct in its intent. Rapture is a word of Latin origin, not Hebrew or Greek, the languages of the Bible. (The earliest translation of the Bible was into Latin, and the word rapture comes from there.) Its Greek equivalent is harpazo, which is found in the Greek text of 1 Thes. 4:17. When they’re translated into English, both words mean “to be caught up, or snatched away.” Harpazo, the word Paul actually used, comes from roots that mean, “to raise from the ground” and” take for oneself” and hints that in doing so the Lord’s eagerly claiming us for Himself. So while the Latin word doesn’t appear in our Bibles, the event it describes certainly does. There’s a similar situation with the word Lucifer, also of Latin origin. It doesn’t appear in any of the original texts either, but no one would be naive enough to deny the existence of Satan on such a flimsy basis. With that introduction, let’s go first to the best known of the Rapture passages.

According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thes. 4:15-17)

Most of us are very familiar with these verses. But notice they don’t tell you when the rapture happens, only that it does. Notice also that the Lord doesn’t come all the way to Earth. We meet Him in the clouds and then according to John 14:1-3 go back with Him to where He came from. If this was the 2nd coming, He would be coming here to be where we are, not coming to take us there to be where He is. Paul described the same event in 1 Cor 15:51-52. In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye the dead in Christ will rise and the living will be transformed. There he said that he was disclosing a secret, but the resurrection of the dead was not a secret. It can be found through out the Old Testament. The secret was that some would not die, but be taken alive into the Lord’s presence following an instantaneous transformation. The rapture happens fast. In one instant we’re walking on Earth and in the very next, we’re in the Kingdom. Don’t try to use the trumpet reference in verse 52 to pin the timing down. There are several “Last Trumpets” in the Bible and Jewish tradition. This verse just means it’s the last trumpet we’ll hear before we’re changed. Since both the Corinthian passage and the one from Thessalonians describe the same things, it’s safe to assume that this trumpet is the same one mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:16 and is not pointing us toward any other event. So these two references both say that one generation of humans won’t die but will be suddenly changed from our earthly form to our heavenly one. And since both Matt. 24:31 (they’ll gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other) and Rev. 17:14 (with Him will be His called, chosen, and faithful followers) say that we’ll be with the Lord when He returns, this has to happen sometime before the 2nd Coming. And it can’t be just the resurrected believers coming back with Him because the Rapture passages above say that we’ll be changed at the same time as the dead are raised.

So When Does This Happen?
In the New Testament, the clearest indication we get in the timing department is found in 1 Thes. 1:9-10. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. The Greek word translated “from” in this passage is “apo.” Taken literally, it means we’re to be rescued from the time, the place, or any relation to God’s wrath. It denotes both departure and separation. This is supported by 1 Thes. 5:9 that declares, “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Some folks are fond of pointing out that you can’t use God’s wrath interchangeably with the Great Tribulation. They’re not the same, they say. And they’re right, the two terms are not synonymous. The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long and begins in Rev. 11-13. God’s wrath is much longer, beginning in Rev. 6, as verse 17 explains. Post-trib. and pre-wrath rapture advocates try to deny this but the Scripture is clear. The time of God’s wrath begins with the Seal Judgments. The Bowl Judgments that come later don’t begin the time of His wrath, they conclude it. (Rev. 15:1) Being rescued from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath means the Church has to disappear before Rev. 6, and that’s why we believe the Rapture takes place in Rev. 4 and the Church is the group of believers in view in heaven in Rev.5.
You Be The Judge

Now let’s apply my questioner’s litmus test. Could a believer, sitting alone on the proverbial desert isle with nothing but a Bible and with no pre-conceived ideas, conclude that there’s a pre-trib Rapture just from reading about it, or could he only be led into this position by first hearing someone teach him about it? Well, From Isaiah 13:9-13 and Amos 5:18-20, he would have learned that God is going to judge the Earth for it’s sins in a terrible time called the Day of the Lord when He’ll pour out His wrath on mankind. Reading Matt. 24:21-22 would have told him that this time of judgment would be so bad that if the Lord didn’t put a stop to it no one would survive. But the Lord will put a stop to it by returning in power and glory. Since he would know that the Lord hasn’t returned yet, he would know that God’s wrath is still in the future. When he got to 1 Thes. 1:9-10 he would see a pretty clear statement. Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath. In the “who, what, where, when, and why” methodology of the investigative reporter he would have the Who, (Jesus) the what, (rescues us) and the when (the time of the coming wrath). Reading on he would come to 1 Thes. 4:15:17 and get the where (from Earth to the clouds) and in 1 Thes. 5:9 the why (because we’re not appointed to wrath). From there he would logically conclude that since we’ll be rescued around the time of the coming wrath and since we’re not appointed to wrath, our rescue has to precede it. He could also answer another of the investigative reporter’s questions in 1 Thes. 4:15:17 and that’s how it would happen. The Lord himself will come down from Heaven into our atmosphere and suddenly snatch us away from Earth to join Him there. In chapter 5 he would learn that he would never know the exact timing of this event but only that it would precede the coming wrath. Of course there are many more passages I could reference but I think I’ve made my point and answered the question. In fact I’ll go one step further. I believe that since our hypothetical reader has no one to persuade him differently, he would assume that what he’s reading is to be taken literally. And if that’s the case, then the pre-trib position is the only conclusion he could logically come to, because every other position requires a moderate to massive re-interpretation of Scripture. I contend that left alone to work this out with only the Holy Spirit as his guide he would expect to be raptured before the wrath of God begins in Rev. 6. You see, God didn’t write the Bible to confuse us, but to inform us. It’s mankind that’s gotten everything all mixed up. If you give the Holy Spirit a clear minded student, uncontaminated by man’s opinions and prejudices, He would bring that person to the understanding of the rapture that’s most consistent with a literal interpretation of Scripture. And that requires a pre-trib rapture.
But Wait, There’s More

While we’re on the topic, there’s another issue that points to a pre-trib Rapture and it comes to us in the form of a clue in 1 Thes. 4:15, right at the beginning of the Rapture passage. Verse 15 opens with the phrase “According to the Lord’s own word.” There simply is no place in the New Testament where Jesus speaks of some being resurrected and some others being transformed to meet the Lord in the air. He never said anything like that, nor does he even imply such a thing. Those who believe they see it in Matt. 24:40-41 first have to ignore the fact that Jesus was explaining events on Earth on the actual day of His return, which would place the Rapture after the 2nd Coming, something no one believes. They also have to ignore the fact that in Matt. 24:40-41 both believers and non-believers are sent somewhere, believers being received unto Him, while non-believers are sent away. You have to research the Greek words translated “taken” (paralambano) and “left” (alphiemi) to realize this, but when you do you’ll see that the English is misleading. No Rapture view includes the disposition of non-believers, nor does it even mention them. By the way, this is a great example of why the literal, historical, grammatical interpretation is so important. Our Bible was mostly written in Hebrew and Greek. Every translation relies on the movement of words from one language to another. This process doesn’t always produce a perfect fit, and so learned men have to make allowances for this and exercise their own judgment from time to time. But men are not perfect. We all have our biases. When it’s an important issue where you want an exact meaning it’s always a good idea to double-check their work. Fortunately we have an incredible tool in the Strong’s Concordance. It contains every Hebrew and Greek word in the Bible with their primary and secondary meanings, how often each word appears in the Bible and what meanings are used in each appearance. You can compare these with the meaning the translators used and see if you agree with their treatment of the passage. By doing this with Matt. 24:40-41, you’ll find that the primary meaning of paralambano is to receive and the primary meaning of alphiemi is to send away. People with a post-trib disposition read 1 Thes. 4:15, and then turned to Matt. 24:40-41 where they saw one group being “taken” and another group being “left” after the end of the Great Tribulation. Assuming that these were the Lord’s own words Paul was referring to, they stopped there. They had seen what they wanted to see. In actuality Matt. 24:40-41 is most likely a preview of the Sheep and Goat judgment of Tribulation survivors. The word taken (received) refers to believers going live into the Kingdom, and the word left (sent away) applies to non-believers who are sent to the place prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matt 25:31-46) Of course none of this pertains to our desert island reader above. The verses I used there are clear enough that they don’t require any research into the original language. So he wouldn’t need a Strong’s Concordance, just his Bible.

What’s Your Point?
So if Jesus never taught about the Rapture, to which of the “Lord’s own words” was Paul referring? Some dismiss the phrase, saying that Paul was speaking of a conversation he had with the Lord that doesn’t appear in Scripture. But I think we deserve a better answer than that. Remember, 1st Thessalonians was probably Paul’s first written communication, undertaken in 51AD. Depending on whose opinion you accept, Matthew’s Gospel was either just being written or was still nearly 10 years away. Those who give it an early date say it was written to the Jews in Jerusalem and may even have been written in Hebrew. In any case neither it nor any other Gospel was yet in wide distribution. (Mark’s Gospel, the other candidate for earliest one written, doesn’t contain an equivalent to Matt 24:40-41.) So if Paul was referring to Scripture, as I believe he was, it had to be the Old Testament. Yes, like everything else in God’s plan, you’ll find hints of the Rapture even in the Old Testament. Look at this passage from Isaiah 26:19-21. But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. Notice how the pronouns change from second person when God speaks of His people to third person when He speaks of the people of the Earth. It means the two groups are different. Those called “my people” are told to “enter your rooms” (the rooms of John 14:1-3?) because the others, called “the people of Earth” are going to be punished for their sins in a period of time called His Wrath. Sound familiar? (Note: the Hebrew word translated “go” in the phrase “Go my people” is translated “come” in some translations, recalling the command to John in Revelation 4, “Come up here!” But the word has another primary meaning and it’s my favorite. It means vanish. “Vanish, my people!” Yes we will.) Not by any stretch of the imagination has this passage been literally fulfilled. It’s an End Times prophecy that promises a resurrection of the dead and hiding of God’s people while God’s Wrath is unleashed on the people of Earth for their sins. And it was written 2750 years ago. The hiding of the Jews in the desert on Earth at the beginning of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 12:14) cannot be considered as a fulfillment of this passage because no resurrection accompanies it. (The resurrection of Old Testament believers takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation. (Daniel 12:2)) Of course, no one knows for sure that this is the passage Paul referred to, but as evidence of its influence on him, let’s compare it with what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. Isaiah : But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Paul: The dead in Christ will rise first . Isaiah : Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. Paul: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Isaiah : See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. Paul: While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. The wording is a little different, but it sure looks to me like they’re describing the same event.
And Still More

There are other sound theological reasons why the Church will be raptured before the End Times judgments begin. One is that the Lord seems to keep Israel and the Church separate, never dealing with both at the same time (Acts 15: 13-18) If the primary purpose of Daniel’s 70th week is to finish fulfilling the six promises to Israel in Daniel 9:24, then the Church has to disappear. Another is that the Church was purified at the cross at which time all the punishment due us was born by the Lord Himself. From that time forward the Church is considered by God to be as righteous as He is (2 Cor 5:17 & 21) The idea that the Church needs to undergo some discipline to become worthy to dwell with God is unscriptural and denies the Lord’s completed work on the cross. And third, the stated purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold, to purify Israel and completely destroy the unbelieving nations. (Jeremiah 30:1-11) The Church isn’t destined for either of these outcomes. There are also several subtle clues that on their own can’t be used to support the pre-trib position, but which underscore the validity of the clear passages I’ve just cited. Take for instance the fact that Enoch, who bears a great similarity to the Church, disappeared before the Great Flood, that the angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear, and that Daniel was missing from the story of the fiery furnace, a model of the Great Tribulation. When the Lord described His coming in Luke 17:26-29 He said that it would be both like the days of Noah (some will be preserved through the accompanying judgments) and the days of Lot (some will taken away before them). And what about the promise He made to the Church in Philadelphia that he would keep us out of the “hour” of trial coming on the whole world. (Rev. 3:10) Is that the same as the “hour” of Babylon’s destruction in Rev. 18? But being asked to cite verses that didn’t require any prior knowledge I picked two that are clearest to me, 1 Thes. 1:9-10 and Isaiah 26: 19-21. And so by the testimony of two witnesses, one in the Old Testament and one in the New, we see the physical separation of believers from non-believers preceding the time of Judgment. And by the testimony of two witnesses a thing shall be established. (Deut. 19:15) Of course some won’t be convinced until we show them a verse that says the rapture will precede the Great Tribulation in those exact words. Obviously, such a verse doesn’t exist. I guess we’ll just have to wait and explain it to them on the way up.

Forgot to add incase someone doesn't want to read my wall of text "lol."
There is one rapture, and then one 2nd comming. Which is for the most part why people think there are two raptures.

reply to post by watchtheashes


Well for what it's worth, if someone actually lived the principles laid out by Jesus, he she wouldn't mind martyrdom...

Like if rapture didn't materialize, so what? Christian life is a very difficult one, death wouldn't matter. As said, the path to life is narrow and full of thorns.

And since both Matt. 24:31 (they’ll gather His elect from one end of the heavens to the other) and Rev. 17:14 (with Him will be His called, chosen, and faithful followers) say that we’ll be with the Lord when He returns, this has to happen sometime before the 2nd Coming. And it can’t be just the resurrected believers coming back with Him because the Rapture passages above say that we’ll be changed at the same time as the dead are raised.

First off, this remark defeated your entire purpose. You are telling me that Matthew 24:31 is a verse referring to the elect (raptured) being gathered? If this is the case, back up to matthew 24:29 and read through verse 31. Verse 29 begins "AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..." My conclusion is that Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, and 1 Thessalonians 5:15-18 all speak of the same event. Only Matthew 24 gives the definite time of this event. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days. And though you don't like the 'trumpet' argument, it's possible to connect the name of these trumpets like "The Last Trumpet" or "The Trumpet of God" in some sort of importance. All three passages I referenced explains the blowing of some sort of trumpet. Also, to ignore the resurrections of the bible, which we're told will be 2 resurrections, is to ignore the proper doctrine. All who are resurrected in the first resurrection will be raised at the return of Jesus. The second resurrection is 1000 years after the return of Jesus to earth to establish His Kingdom. The rapture itself is the event of the living saints at the time of resurrection who are changed instantly or "transfigured". You see, it has to be post-trib. The words (to meet) referenced in context with the idea that when a king arrives, his followers come out of the city walls to meet him and then escort him back to the city. This is the event in 1 thessalonians 5:17. When Jesus returns on His cloud, it is not a partial coming. It's a second-coming and only one second-coming. The saints will meet Him in the air and will escort Him to earth.

You said the same thing as me. Only difference is you beleive in post trib, while I stand by pre trib. Either one makes no difference its still the 1st rapture of the church before the 2nd coming, or as others here like to call the 2nd coming the 2nd rapture.

It's an unknown, immediately before, during, or after the tribulation are all possibilities. But it isn't spread out. The group that this happens to, whenever the time is, it happens to all of them at once.

But from my perspective this doctrinal point is the least of a Christians' worries, it's not essential to salvation, that we answer this correctly.

Well personally I think the majority of this thread is hogwash. Anytime I hear the word "lukewarm christian" I pretty much cringe and have to keep myself from throwing up.

But I noticed someone trying to quote John 14 as "evidence" of this rapture idea and that I know is just plain silly. John 14 has nothing to do with a rapture directly, John 14 is talking about being born again of the spirit.

The only thing that I can say that would justify that would be that when I experienced John 14 and was reborn myself, the only question I was asked in my vision by the father was if I wanted it to end, and I guess if I had said yes that would have been like a rapture, but it would have only been a personal rapture, not some big event.

But most of the things mentioned in this thread have already happened YEARS ago. Christianity is the anti-Christ religion, and Paul is the anti-christ.

Originally posted by badmedia


But most of the things mentioned in this thread have already happened YEARS ago. Christianity is the anti-Christ religion, and Paul is the anti-christ.

Ummmm, NO. I don't know where you get your information but this is the most Ultra WRONG statement I have read in a long time. I understand what you are saying about Christianity.

But the Apostle Paul is in heaven right now, and when he see's some Christians tagging him as the anti-Christ, he must really wonder about them.

The Apostle Paul as the anti-Christ that's a good one. By extension that means you discount and ignore a good piece of the New Testament. IF you are trying to find the true path to enlightenment, that belief isn't going to help you.

[edit on 30-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

Ummmm, NO. I don't know where you get your information but this is the most Ultra WRONG statement I have read in a long time. I understand what you are saying about Christianity.

But the Apostle Paul is in heaven right now, and when he see's some Christians tagging him as the anti-Christ, he must really wonder about them.

The Apostle Paul as the anti-Christ that's a good one. By extension that means you discount and ignore a good piece of the New Testament. IF you are trying to find the true path to enlightenment, that belief isn't going to help you.

Yes, I discount pretty much half the "new" testament, and the "new" religion that has come in the name of Christ, and it's new leaders, and it's false shepherd Paul.

Paul's writings make up nearly 50% of the NT, and during that time he praises Jesus a ton, but he quotes Jesus a total of 1 time. He does however contradict Jesus many times.

Paul isn't even around when Jesus is alive, he comes after his death and the majority of take to the 2nd Shepperd Jesus warns of. The disciples rejected him at first, and with good reason. His story in acts changes 3 times, and all the while NONE of the 3 actually describe what the old testament says will happen in such a case, which I know from experience to be true.

Paul is "anti-christ" in nature based on his writings, where he is today is not my concern and I don't place all the blame directly on Paul. I hope nothing but the best for him, we all have our purpose. Who knows where he was when he wrote those things, I'd be pretty much terrified if someone took my writings and tried to pass them off as the word of god. He could have been mistaken at the time, while on the path to learning and so forth for all we know. But either way, the writings attributed to Paul are in general a manipulation of what Jesus says.

It really comes down to do you follow Jesus and what he said, or do you follow Paul.

Small example:

Paul

1 Cor 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

vs

Jesus

Luke 16

14And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

or more directly:

Luke 6
26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Another example:

Paul:

1 Cor 4

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Jesus:

Matthew 23

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Paul is saying he has "begotten" them, that he is their father and to follow him. 2nd shepherd. Jesus says do not do any such thing, for only 1 is your father and he is in heaven, and there is only 1 master to follow, and that is god.

But Paul "pleases all men" so that he will be accepted among the many, where as Jesus actually had the father within him. Paul is a fake.

There are many more examples, Paul pretty much praises Jesus, takes his peaceful nature, twists it up and teaches people it all means to submit to authority. Authorities which he built up in the name of Jesus in a physical church, and that church went on to kill anyone who disagreed with it once it gained great power politically. Those who knew of a deeper meaning in the life of Jesus were killed off, and we get a religion founded by Paul and paul's way in the name of Jesus, the anti-Christ religion.

As for where I get my info, I am never given such information directly. I was given understandings of things, and I found the bible after. When I read the bible I see Jesus being an example of everything I was taught, and speaking a truth that I know comes from the father. But when I read what Paul says and such, then I see the opposite, I see everything I was told not to do, such as make an authority figure of myself and so on.

Paul is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Praises Jesus alot and carries the symbolism, but in his fruits/path you can see the truth. Praise Jesus, Praise the Lord - follow me? Lip service and a heart that is far, and a path of death and destruction.


[edit on 30-4-2009 by badmedia]