IIG's investigation of the Billy Meier HOAX

reply to post by NightVision


I'm making the point that you cannot possibly know these are not spray painted. Chrome is FAR and away more reflective than we see in any Meier photo.

I do, by the way, have civil debate with the vast majority of people...those who actually have a point do best. I'm sorry to say, your arguments have been sorely lacking in the "point" department...so I no longer subject myself to the aggravation of the discussion.

i.e. - IIG's/Ritzmann's photos come up short in duplicating Meier's. You cannot, and have not cited one issue that demonstrates your point. Both the duplicated and original Meier shots contain the same articles you refuse to acknowledge. Therefore discussing it becomes an effort in futility, with you.

This is much as what happens when you discuss it (or try to) with a Meier supporter. I'm satisfied that when I spoke to one of the main Meier message boards on the net, I got more than 15 people saying they had no idea, and were grateful they saw the true nature of the case before investing any more time, or money in it.

Thats reward enough for me. Those who truly want answers and look past their desire to believe will see that the UFO phenomenon has *much* more to offer than this tripe. This is a scam people. As I have said a million times, do your homework and you'll come to the same answer - it's first class B.S.

Derek/IIG, myself and others have spent *way* more than enough time to show whats wrong with this "case" to the public, and in the end one need not listen to us...go find out for yourself.

In the end it's always the same old problem, no one wants to get off their backsides and really look or get involved - they want someone to tell them...then whine when they don't like the answer they get, or try snide / baseless remarks to belittle the work.

The answer is simple: get involved and do the work if you care so much - or you're resigned to being another anonymous mud-slinger.

Originally posted by Frankinmouse
Why do people simply discount the onsite investigation that went on for nearly six years and found no evidence of either a hoax or how it could be performed?

Because those involved actively in the investigation (Stevens, Elders) all had vested interest in the case being "real". Films, books, transcripts of contact notes, lectures, etc.

C'mon man, get with it. These people stood to gain from presenting this as a real case.

There's a distinct reason I don't address this "case" anymore - the absolute lack of reason people seem to adopt when discussing it. You guys have at it, I'm outta here.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by jritzmann]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I think you really do underestimate the lengths to which these investigators went. Basically, whatever you and I have thought, they thought as well.

It certainly would seem they didn't think of wrapping paper and home-made rayguns, if they were searching clothing and toy stores. No, I think it's a sham. All of it.

Consumer Gold wrapping paper does not have the consistency of the gold-metallic suit Alena is wearing. I demonstrated earlier by linking to objects with gold foil that it does not look the same. It would be similar for gold wrapping paper, unless you can show me that you can create a suit of wrapping paper that would look the same.

You're so into believing this story that you must be in denial. What consistency? It's crumpled up gold foil paper taped to a suit. How hard is that to see? Anyone can create it, crumple it up and tape it to your shirt! Voila! Instant space suit! There is nothing, I repeat NOTHING special at all about the "consistency" of the suit.

Go ahead and do it then and see if you can create the ray-gun. Although I personally think it's not outside of the remit of possibility to create that ray-gun, but perhaps doing it will make you appreciate how difficult it would be build it at home.

LOL. I worked at one of the largest model shops in Hollywood for several years, I know how to make things, you're version of "difficult" is laughable and is bordering on ignorance if not well past it by now. Open your eyes and LOOK at that flimsy gun, it's hilarious!

LOOK at the wedding cake UFO, come on, look at it, then ask anyone who has made models or worked around them as a profession if that jalopy would be "difficult" to make.

Here's one we did that should be considered "difficult" :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0c6d6da16aab.jpg[/atsimg]

How about this one, a little less difficult, but a lot more familiar to those of you that saw the movie :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/965e69098229.jpg[/atsimg]

Let's compare that to :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0bafb10878e2.jpg[/atsimg]

and :

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f001ca5ee0ce.jpg[/atsimg]

Difficult? Funny stuff! It's a bunch of raggedy junk hacked together and photographed in forced perspective. Period. Heck, fishermen have been doing it for years, next time you're at a magazine stand pick up a fishing magazine and look at the cover. Look at how they hold the fish, they extend their arms out away from their bodies... why? To put the fish closer to the camera to make it look bigger!

It's not that hard to see through all of this nonsense. All you have to do is open your eyes.

LOL@Billy Meier (The Prophet, Lord of the Foil People)

reply to post by Indigo_Child

The results showed that the beamships shown in Meiers photographs and videos were genuine. They were not small models but very large objects(up to 20 m) There were no strings or wire supports.

sorry but the results show that the wedding cake ufo is a complete fraud/fake. 100 % FAKE ..........stop denying it.

the other beamships are also fake and there is evidence they were on a string or wire...

The title image shows a Type-4 spacecraft over Mount Auruti, Switzerland, photographed by Billy Meier on 29 March 1976. Above, the two computer-enhanced images made from this photograph reveal a great deal about this picture. The left-hand image shows, in the words of Ground Saucer Watch who made the computer analyses, 'evidence of a linear structure above the craft - in plain english, a string or rod supporting the object. The structure is equally clear in the computerised enlargement in the second image. In addition,study of the focus in this picture indicates that the object is close to the camera and is therefore small - about 8 inches (20 centimetres) across, not 23 feet (7 metres) as claimed.

meiercase.0x2a.info...








www.youtube.com...












Meiers wife admits fakery in this video. english dialogue begins after 3 minute mark.


....quote from video.........

]The truth is my ex husband is lying regarding the ufo affair. when i saw the ufo pictures that looked like a wedding cake...i asked my self where did i see these lines before ? the underpart..i realized it was a lid from a trash can,,,i compared the lid from the spaceship and i identify these lines what is exactly on the lid.

Now that we have established that the Plejarens are real

maybe in your own mind it's been established.... in no way shape or form have you or anyone ever shown any real proof that these Plajarens exist. period

telling people they are real when you don't really know for sure is kinda foolish wouldn't you agree ?





[edit on 18-4-2009 by easynow]

Now that we have established that the Plejarens are real

Ummmm indigochild.

Are you Billy Meier?

It may be easier to establish your links to this Aryan cult before you can truly established Plejarens are real.

There is post after post disproving it, and in your conclusion all you do is rewrite your opening thoughts, without hardly any consideration for what has been tirelessly presented.

Not wanting to open up to the possibilty that you had a incorrect or misguided assumption is usually a indication of a fanatic believer, not a researcher. Researchers should be OK with going back to the drawing board in their quests for knowledge.


I suppose I am asking, is this a religious thing for you? no disrespect meant if it is, I ask as it has that zealot overtone you find in religious threads.
If it is, I leave you peacefully to practice your faith, but ask next time you post under the religion board instead.


his workbench UFO model photo negative
www.psychicinvestigator.com...

Gazroks thread....please even just read the 1st page describing the 5 fingered aliens holding a laser that Billy said had 6 fingers later...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

pffff, YAWN



[edit on 18-4-2009 by zazzafrazz]

I have said it before and I'll say it again. Most people that call them skeptics now days are not real skeptics. They are just doubters and pseudoskeptics. It does not matter if you even have infinite evidence it will not change status quo because all a pseduskeptic needs to do is just assert.

All of the demands for proof, peer reviewed physical evidence are just smoke-screens for insecurity that their conception of reality is under threat. Even if that proof is provided it does not change status quo.

1) A skeptic does not assert things, but investigates them
2) A skeptic does not reject evidence, but considers it
3) A skeptic does and will test hypothesis and refine his hypothesis in accordance with the evidence

The skeptics posting in this thread faill on all counts. All I can see here is pseudoskepticism. It is unfortunate that they many have chosen to be so unreasonable so as to reject hundreds of pages of peer-reviewed scientific reports, as well as documentary evidence and original lab footage, and continue to make unsubstantiated assertions counter to the evidence.

Anyway it is clear to an objective reader here that the weight of the evidence I have provided in this thread is insurmountable for the skeptics.
I have won this. Period.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by Indigo_Child

Anyway it is clear to an objective reader here that the weight of the evidence I have provided in this thread is insurmountable for the skeptics. I have won this.

The only thing you have 'won' is my belief that you are a aryian cult member that is putting meier propoganda on a popluar global UFO discussion board, perhaps as recruitment? This was never a competition for you to win or lose, what an odd thing to say....one would hope it was a search to uncover truth, not a thread to satisfy someones ego.

YAWN YAWN, outa here

reply to post by zazzafrazz


Nope, Adhominem.

You've already lost this which is why you are resorting to personal attacks. People who have known me here for the last 5 years know I have no affiliation with Meiers organization and also know how scrutanizing I have been of it. You can go over to an old thread at Steelmark forums and watch me tear Meier and the FIGU moderators apart.

So I have demonstrated my mettle to be an honest researcher on this forum who is objective and I only go where the evidence takes me. A few years ago I had not perused the evidence to extent I have today, leading me to a counter-conclusion which I have been able to reevaluate given new evidence. That is what a skeptic does.

Anyway this is going to get tired very quickly you either reproduce Meiers pictures and videos using small models and strings or leave the thread. If you make a claim here it is going to be tested. Sorry but that is just science.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by easynow


Sorry, unsubstantiated source. For all I know they have painted in the lines themselves. I am familiar with the Korean duplications by the way, they used modern methods to attempt to reproduce the videos and did not submit their photos and videos for testing.


P.S: Adding "LOL" to the pictures is not going to make your points any stronger

reply to post by jritzmann


You claim that Wendel Stevens and Lee Elders have vested interests? So basically they create this huge 5 year long conspiracy, brought in the worlds best scientists and experts in on it from IBM, NASA, JPL, Nippon then fabricated hundreds of pages of scientific reports and scientific data, documentary evidence showing the tests taking place and the results being read, lab footage etc

Listen to yourself


The simplest explanation is the best explanation. What is more simple -Wedel Stevens and Lee elders and the worlds scientists are masterminds of an evil conspiracy to prove a one-armed famer correct or that they're telling the truth

Interesting how you do not think IIG does not have vested interests and are all clean, considering that they have set out to "debunk" Meier, have $5000 to lose, and have already been exposed to be telling lies.

Come on your skepticism is a joke here. The bias can be seen flashing in neon letters from space by the Pleajaren beamships

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by jritzmann

Originally posted by Frankinmouse
Why do people simply discount the onsite investigation that went on for nearly six years and found no evidence of either a hoax or how it could be performed?

Because those involved actively in the investigation (Stevens, Elders) all had vested interest in the case being "real". Films, books, transcripts of contact notes, lectures, etc.

C'mon man, get with it. These people stood to gain from presenting this as a real case.

There's a distinct reason I don't address this "case" anymore - the absolute lack of reason people seem to adopt when discussing it. You guys have at it, I'm outta here.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by jritzmann]

Hi Jeff,
there has been nothing but reasoned argument on this thread so far apart from the people screaming Hoax!Raqygun!Billy's a homophobe! and then running away. I presented an argument to Derek about a particular claim they made to see if he could accept the possibility that he may be wrong, and despite multiple requests for an answer I got nothing. He also refused to comment on misreprsenting evidence about the Marcel Vogel testimony preferring to make the claim that someone may have recreated a scene from the 1980's documantary faking Vogel voice! How is it possible to have a rational discussion when questions you ask are ignored or you get replies like that?

As to whether the original investigators had vested interests it is well within reason to allow the investigators the fact that they had to make money from an years long onsite investigation which drained their finances.

Easynow:
As for some of the evidence of hoax you just posted the pictures of "models with strings" comes from Kal Korffs book, spaceships of the pleadies which has been proven to be falsified, read back through the posts and you will find the illustrator who actually worked on the book confirming this. Korff's a confirmed lunatic who had a grudge against Billy Meier from the start. Check where your info is coming from.

All I wanted was a rational discussion about a particular piece of evidence all we get on this site is conclusions based on falsified evidence or just guesses about how Meier may have hoaxed things that have to be taken as gospel and leave no room for accepting that another conclusion may exist.

reply to post by Indigo_Child


Well done Indigo on trying at least to start a rational discussion, I'll leave you to it. Anyone else reading this try reading through the previous posts before posting anything that has to be repeated again and again.

And if Derek from IIG ever wants to answer my questions let me know.

Peace

reply to post by Frankinmouse


Indeed, and I am a bit surprised you would get this on this site. This site is suppose to be a place for open minded discussion on fringe things such as ET/UFO. It seems it has been hijacked by people from the James Randi and Richard Dawkins forums. This thread could have easily been one of the threads on Randi's forum.

I think ATS need to institute some policy against pseudoskepticism on this forum. It really is ruining every discussion and putting off a lot of people who are interested in discussing these things. How can a discussion proceed if people just jump in ridicule the "believers", pontificate, make unsubstantiated assertions and refuse to be reasonable.

I am tired of seeing all of these valid discussions being shut down by closeminded people and the unnecessary name-calling. Apparently I am either a FIGU cult member, Michael Horn or Billy Meier himself. And the person who said that has 4 stars for saying that. How more ridiculous can it get?

A lot of reasonable and intelligent posters are being put off from posting here. I have had U2U's from intelligent posters intimating the same. The childishness has to stop here now. The rest of this discussion will be a civil, mature and intelligent discussion about the evidence and arguments presented.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

the ray gun debate is very amusing, how anyone can entertain the possibility that this is a real alien ray gun is beyond me. Its design is so inspired by 60's sci fi and looks like a few yogurt pots put together. Also by assuming that these aliens have ray guns is completely underestimating their advancement. These are supposed to be highly in tune spiritual beings so why do they run round in tin foil suits and brandishing lazer guns as if they are in the futuristic version of the wild west. I would have thought they would have something much more efficient than something you have to aim and point which is what we have been doing for centuries.

reply to post by SpaceMonkeys


I think it is naive to expect a spiritually advanced ET race of not having weapons. If you consider all the threats that lurk in the world and in the universe and of Hostile ET races, not having weapons is simply inviting your own destruction. Consider that the great spiritual texts of ancient times - the Sanskrit literature - also speaks of celestial weapons posessed by the "shining ones" the Devas.

The right to protect oneself and to the protect other lives is a fundamental right of a living organism. So they would have weapons.

The Plejaren actually have very sophisticated weapons. The ray-gun you see is actually operated by the mind. Meier merely has to concentrate on the target by pointing it, the image comes up on a monitor on the gun and then he pulls the trigger. Their latest weapons are completely mind controlled and can only be operated by the owner of the weapon.

One final note for Easynow and any others who continue to post evidence of hoax that originates from Kal Korff as posted above. As you obviously can't be bothered to check the validity of the source of your arguments,

I'll do it for you, look at this
www.ufowatchdog.com...

and this...
video.google.com...

and this
video.google.com...

and finaly although I could go on indefinately...this.
kultofkal.blogspot.com...

Oh go on then, one more.......ok!
kalisanidiot.blogspot.com...

Enjoy, then think about the source of your information.

Sorry for digressing from the topic Indigo but you can't let people get away with posting rubbish from Kal Korff as evidence of a hoax when it's been proven he fabricated his evidence because of a grudge againts Meier.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Frankinmouse]

reply to post by Frankinmouse



Wow the guy sounds like an absolute nut. He claims he went to Meier undercover pretending to be one of them - "the beleivers" I wonder if he went expecting to get a ride on a beamship to Erra, and when he found out it's not going to happen, he spat out his dummy

It really is amazing the kind of sources our most venerable "skeptics" are consulting are proven liars and nuts. The irony could give one a heart attack

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

It's like talking to a brick wall when it comes to trying to discuss anything with the Meier supporters.

You ask for replication of the photos. Voila you are given the Japanese doing just that. Jeff did a great job creating his pictures. Yet you still moan and throw mud.

If we all went to Meier's cult farm in Switzerland and dug up his original models you would cry foul and say Kal Korff, the CIA or fairies buried those to discredit Meier.

Even if Meier himself gave a deathbed confession he hoaxed the whole thing you would come up with excuses that he was drugged or forced into it.

Blinkered people, it's unbelieveable.

reply to post by Aspie



Nope sorry there have been no reproductions of Meiers pics and videos so far. The OP debunked the IIG reproductions. The Japansese reproduction is done with modern equipment and are poor imitations. None of the duplications have been submitted for scientific analysis.

As for Karl Koff? You are appealing to a guy that:

* Is going to have Alien Autopsy film producer Ray Santilli prosecuted for consumer fraud and that the FBI and Department of Justice were involved.
* He was going to "nail" Billy Meier and his promoter having them both prosecuted for conumer fraud.
* Said a Meier promoter was going to be taken into custody by the United States Secret Service. Korff expressed a desire to personally "slap the handcuffs" on this person.
* Said he was going to sue a Meier promoter for "libel and slander."
* Claimed all these alleged legal actions were "official."
* Had psy-ops working on a Meier representative and had this person pegged and was playing him based on this supposed psy-ops info.
* Wanted to get Bob Gimlin "under oath" and have him put under "cross examination."
* Is the director of a nanotechnology project and had a forensics project in the Balkans. Korff also claimed he would have a chip implanted in him for his "ops" for a reality tv show showing "Captain" Korff fighting terrorism and taking down UFO frauds.
* Was a consultant to the OJ Simpson criminal prosecution team and an expert witness for the defense in the OJ Simpson civil trial.
* Said he had cutting edge technology that he wanted to share with me for use on the Internet. Korff claimed to have created this cutting edge technology.
* Has a $25,000,000 budget to work with to pursue UFO frauds.
* Is going to be publishing a 24 volume series exposing the Billy Meier case and has a 500 book deal. Yes, you read right, five-hundred, 5-0-0.
* Is a Captain in the Special Secret Services and works in anti-terrorism as a SAPSTOE (Special Activities Planning Strategies Tactics Operations Execution).
* Goes into the homes of his supporters to cook dinners for them

IIG and Karl Koff are really at the bottom of the barrel. They do nothing for your credibility when you appeal to their authority

reply to post by Indigo_Child

Sorry, unsubstantiated source. For all I know they have painted in the lines themselves.

two different investigations have found evidence of a wire or string , and heck even without an enhancement you can see signs of a wire. it's obvious that you have selective vision.

I am familiar with the Korean duplications by the way, they used modern methods to attempt to reproduce the videos and did not submit their photos and videos for testing.

they did a great job proving the photos are nothing more than forced perspective using small ufo models. they also proved that the succession of the video has been tampered with in the part where the "beamship" disappears. it's very obvious that the tree limb is not in the same place before and after. clear sign of a Hoax

P.S: Adding "LOL" to the pictures is not going to make your points any stronger

P.S....i didn't add anything to any picture. there is no need to add LOL to that picture because it's already funny without it



Wendall Stevens openly admits Meier had/has many models in his home and this picture proves that the ufo is not 20- 30 ft.... like Meier claims it is.





here is a picture of the tree top that he used in some of the photos. the one that was supposedly broken by the beamship accidently and then towed to help Meier get it home




why do you ignore the testimony from his ex wife ?

The truth is my ex husband is lying regarding the ufo affair. when i saw the ufo pictures that looked like a wedding cake...i asked my self where did i see these lines before ? the underpart..i realized it was a lid from a trash can,,,i compared the lid from the spaceship and i identify these lines what is exactly on the lid.

www.youtube.com...

It does not matter if you even have infinite evidence it will not change status

You got that part correct....

[edit on 18-4-2009 by easynow]