Why I dont buy the "tea party" protests

Originally posted by David9176
Here is one from April 15th..and the speakers railing against the fed.

Many of the people out here are just trying to wake people up SG. Many of the end the fed protesters were there just to try and inform others...more are waking up to it. It's helping.

Why are you slandering all of them?

It's not right.

No slandering them all David. But its no secret the majority of those at the protests are posers, are constitutional hypocrites. They have their own personal agendas, and they are using your movement as fuel for the GOP.

I know what Paulers stand for, but you were but a minority in a majority Bush fest. I would have loved to have a debate with Paulers on ending the fed etc, but instead, not surprisingly, I find myself debating with bushies.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


SG i watched how Fox tried to misconstrue the message of many of the protesters..and I also watched as all the others beat them to a pulp.

This was the first opportunity for people railing against the federal reserve to get some media attention...even if it was overlooked....but the signs were there...they were everywhere...at least from what I seen.

"Bushies" as you've been calling them are not people holding up these signs. Many of them out there were just trying to educate the rest who didn't really know what they were protesting for...some were just protesting Obama, some were protesting socialism...and many were just protesting government spending and bailouts.

Some are misinformed..others are learning..and some are figuring it out.

Many of these people are just worried about their children's futures...just as you are.

So why do you continue to beat them all up?

How is that fair?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Still can't stick to one story or defend your false claims can you? I'm starting to wonder why I even bother...

Still waiting for your excuse for pretending I posted something I didn't. Or for switching up stories when I point out that your wrong about something and then claiming that wasn't what you said.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
But its no secret the majority of those at the protests are posers, are constitutional hypocrites. They have their own personal agendas, and they are using your movement as fuel for the GOP.

According to who?

Dang character limit, that's all I wanted to ask.

Originally posted by David9176
SG i watched how Fox tried to misconstrue the message of many of the protesters..and I also watched as all the others beat them to a pulp.

I appreciate that you by the least recognize this fact.

This was the first opportunity for people railing against the federal reserve to get some media attention...

I know... which comes into my point to an extent. Why give up your message in all its pureness and form in place of numbers? You loose credibility the minute you align yourselves with the very individuals that shut you out and acted unconstitutionally. I know the small number of Paulers, and maybe they felt a need to side with the "lesser of evils" to get their message across, but was it worth it? Would you sacrifice part of your dignity for the sake of numbers?

even if it was overlooked....but the signs were there...they were everywhere...at least from what I seen.

The posers used anything to complain about Obama, and I mean anything. The real message ment squat, and during Bush the way they acted should have been evident enough.

So why do you continue to beat them all up?

How is that fair?

Because they continue to do so towards liberal like myself. Because they threw us out in the cold during the anti-war protests. Because they never liked Obama, or any other liberal who ran last year and never intended to compromise for anything. Because they are acting as if they give a damn about the constitution and speech, despite their hypocritical histories behind it.

What exactly is fair David? 80% of the active members here, the vast majority of these posts are anti-Obama, anti-liberal, and its been like this since before this administration even. Now I can deal with that, but being surrounded by a bunch of bias fringers trying to get your point across, there is just no other way sorry.

[edit on 18-4-2009 by Southern Guardian]

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by David9176

 

I dont see the Obama administration or any administration for that matter ending the fed. I disagree with Paulers on the economic side but realistic do you think if bushies buddies at those protests get back in they will elminate the fed? You folks protested with them, but how can you knowing full well how they ditched you in the cold think they will do so?

They pretend to share your ideal david, and before long it will be no different from the bush administration when their back in. Liberals such as myself disagree with your argument but atleast we aint foolin anybody, or posing as anybody. These guys are your using your movement as fuel to bring forth a new GOP movement.

well put SG I find myself trying to bring across this same point, but you have said it well... I can smell it from a mile away... It smells like gas...
The GOP will ride the train and kick off everyone who is not going to JEB town...

Don't you realize...that with each new power given to the executive branch is only going to be reclaimed by Neo-cons once again?

I know you are accusing the GOP of stealing the message and misusing it...but aren't you belittling that message yourself with the accusations?

There are plenty people in this world who don't agree with much of anything that has happened the last 10 or so years...and for many much longer than that.

Our foreign policy for the most part is nothing short of terrible and it has been for a long time.

Is this how it's always going to be? If Republicans were in office and the protests have grown large...will the people protesting automatically be called socialists and communists just because of what they are protesting?

They would..no matter what they were saying or speaking out against...the precedent is being set.

We are being divided and it's only going to get worse.

Don't you see that the cycle has to be broken?

I don't think the tea parties would be successful in bringing any great change. What would happen is, if this somehow manage to destroy Obama (which is unlikely), the GOP and Fox will ditch the protesters like a bunch of old rags. So if they want to mingle with fringers, go ahead, humor me.

Even though some of the protesters have legitimate reasons to protest, alas, they're doing it under and sponsored by the old system, the right wing part of the old system in this case. Just like Mr Ron Paul who's too adamant in staying with the republican party. You should be suspicious about this kind of thing.

I don't listen to Fox, and I don't listen to Keith, why anybody who goes to ATS take any of these people seriously anyway? Why?? Because they're suddenly conveniently supporting your cause.. NOW??

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

You really think everybody at those protests have the histories to back themselves up regardining the constitution ...
This goes beyond party line, this goes into ideological lines as well.
...
From my view and the majority of americans all the tea party protests did was to put up a hissy fit about spending and socialimisms ...
In about weeks time there will be something else you fellas will be bluffin bout.

You repeat that everyone knows the majority of Tea Party participants were illegitimate. You are mistaken, deluded, or purposely misleading.

How could you know (other than MSM 'propaganda/reports') such before the fact?

How could you know such (other than others' propaganda/reports') after the fact?

You weren't there. Therefore it's either a lie or hearsay. There is no in between!

Moreover, your timeline is all wrong. The movment began well before Fox, CNN or any other MSM even noticed. Attempting to attribute this to "Fox sponsored" is a false ad hominem.

Criticize the methodology and ideology if you can/will, but don't make up straw men.

As far as ideology is concerned, the event I attended included members of all parties, and no party. No office holders were allowed to speak (to avoid patrtisan appearances), but Democrat and Republican representatives were present and wanted to participate.

Ideologically, the themes were:

Opposition to fascist governmental control of corporations (see, e.g.: TARP, G.M.);
Oppostion to socialistic policies usurping rights reserved to the states (see, e.g. education, health care, marriage, abortion); and,
Profligate borrowing and spending (see, e.g. 2010 Budget, "Stimulus package").

By far, the borrowing/spending and States Rights participants and speakers outnumbered all others, but there was a general consensus that THIS administration's policies were invading too far into people's lives and mortgaging their future without adequate justification and accountability.

Now, what don't you "buy" about people's right to protest these issues?

You agree that fascist control by government of corporations is advisable?
You agree that socialistic policies in which the Federal government determines what is best for its citizens is preferable to Constitutional limits on Federal authority?
You agree that indebting this country and spending without oversight and accountability will "cure" economic problems?

(Look, I KNOW all administrations have attempted some of each of the foregoing.)

You agree that the degree to which the Obama adminstration has attempted to, and intends to, magnify all previous efforts combined is appropriate and Constitutional?

I think I see your ideology, but I fail to see yet why you "don't buy the 'tea party' protests".

Is it that you disagree with their positions, therefore you disagree with the right to organize and voice those objections?

(And don't call me a "Bushie" or NeoCon, because I've never voted a straight ticket in my life, and you don't know what 'neo-con' means)

Simple, really.

You will not respond to this because you are afraid to reveal your true bias and resistance to legitimate argument.

Deny ignorance.

jw

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
But its no secret the majority of those at the protests are posers, are constitutional hypocrites. They have their own personal agendas, and they are using your movement as fuel for the GOP.

According to who?

Dang character limit, that's all I wanted to ask.

According to those who have told him what to say!

Other than using the word "fringers" (which is NOT a word used outside of the liberal lexicon), he can offer no original thoughts or legitimate argument.

Funny how he didn't "buy into" Tea Parties without actually hitting any of their sites, and refuses to acknowledge that the movement began weeks before ANY MSM picked it up for comment.

Since the premise of the movement is antithetical to the Obama ideology, he is knee-jerk (now, without the 'knee') opposed from the start.

No hope here, just like all the other Obama zombies who will now be paying European prices for gasoline and electricity. Sadly, so will the rest of the aware Americans because it's too late until 2010/2012.

Deny ignorance!

jw

[edit on 19-4-2009 by jdub297]

We can squable back and forth or we can unite. Simple really.
Walk the walk, dont just talk the tough talk!
Dont buy their junk. Dont play the greed game.
Disengage from the rampant consumerism that is the treadmill of modern ignorance.
Take a vacation from the dollar! Barter. Trade work, etc.
Sounds totally impossible doesnt it? Figures, thats how bad its got.

You want to protest? Just hit em where it hurts, in their wallet!
Anything else attempted is pointless and will be outlawed eventually anyway. Or condoned off to a seperate area heavily guarded by heavily armored peace officers. Do you really think you will change their minds?
The bailouts should prove we are and will be ignored.(continually)
Of course dont let me be the wet blanket, miracles do happen.

Every time you protest the noose tightens, but do what you feel you must.
Then what though? Like I say, keep arguing and the clock keeps ticking...
I guess wait till your kids are grown to help out. They will have much more at stake anyway. Thanks for your opinions! That was mine.

These people dont have a clue how to run things, except into the ditch.
Why be surprised and freaked out? It is bigger than any of us.
Its a plan of catastrophe in a world of disaster.
It is a financial tsunami and no one knows where the quake even first
happened! Know what I mean?......the're clueless.
Where's Peter Schiff when we needed him?:
Good stuff here for some weekend infotainment!
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com... www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
I agree we have to do something, we fed the monster and voted them in!


[edit on 19-4-2009 by dodadoom]

Originally posted by jdub297
According to those who have told him what to say!

And who are they exactly?

Funny how he didn't "buy into" Tea Parties without actually hitting any of their sites

The same sites that hurled anti-liberal Obama propaganda during the elections, the same blogs? Wonderful.

and refuses to acknowledge that the movement began weeks before ANY MSM

No hope here, just like all the other Obama zombies

Thats been the fringe reply all these months, hence the way I reply right back.

who will now be paying European prices for gasoline and electricity. Sadly, so will the rest of the aware Americans because it's too late until 2010/2012.

And he ends it with typical fringe speculation while his at it. Iv heard it before, and im hearing it again, as usual. While your at it why dont you predict state soveregnty again? or the NWO? Or this supposed gun war? Please iv hear this "too late" or "its going to happen" garbage from fringers all the time and its gotten real old. In a year or two you'll be making excuses about why the economy improving, or why foreign relations are so swell.


[edit on 19-4-2009 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


You repeat that everyone knows the majority of Tea Party participants were illegitimate. You are mistaken, deluded, or purposely misleading.

How could you know (other than MSM 'propaganda/reports') such before the fact?

How could you know such (other than others' propaganda/reports') after the fact?

You weren't there. Therefore it's either a lie or hearsay. There is no in between!

Moreover, your timeline is all wrong. The movment began well before Fox, CNN or any other MSM even noticed. Attempting to attribute this to "Fox sponsored" is a false ad hominem.

Criticize the methodology and ideology if you can/will, but don't make up straw men.

As far as ideology is concerned, the event I attended included members of all parties, and no party. No office holders were allowed to speak (to avoid patrtisan appearances), but Democrat and Republican representatives were present and wanted to participate.

Ideologically, the themes were:

Opposition to fascist governmental control of corporations (see, e.g.: TARP, G.M.);
Oppostion to socialistic policies usurping rights reserved to the states (see, e.g. education, health care, marriage, abortion); and,
Profligate borrowing and spending (see, e.g. 2010 Budget, "Stimulus package").

By far, the borrowing/spending and States Rights participants and speakers outnumbered all others, but there was a general consensus that THIS administration's policies were invading too far into people's lives and mortgaging their future without adequate justification and accountability.

Now, what don't you "buy" about people's right to protest these issues?

You agree that fascist control by government of corporations is advisable?
You agree that socialistic policies in which the Federal government determines what is best for its citizens is preferable to Constitutional limits on Federal authority?
You agree that indebting this country and spending without oversight and accountability will "cure" economic problems?

(Look, I KNOW all administrations have attempted some of each of the foregoing.)

You agree that the degree to which the Obama adminstration has attempted to, and intends to, magnify all previous efforts combined is appropriate and Constitutional?

I think I see your ideology, but I fail to see yet why you "don't buy the 'tea party' protests".

Is it that you disagree with their positions, therefore you disagree with the right to organize and voice those objections?

(And don't call me a "Bushie" or NeoCon, because I've never voted a straight ticket in my life, and you don't know what 'neo-con' means)

Simple, really.

You will not respond to this because you are afraid to reveal your true bias and resistance to legitimate argument.

Deny ignorance.

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
You repeat that everyone knows the majority of Tea Party participants were illegitimate. You are mistaken, deluded, or purposely misleading.

Bushies are legitimate? Nope, they lost their credibility in the last administration. Dont care much what "foul" they are crying about, their credibility died off with bush years ago. Foxes credibility died off, Newt's credibility died off, all those bush politicians who lead those protests and spoke there lost their credibility years ago. What you have left now is an attempt to re-establish a movement among the bushies, and thus far its failed. They would have done slight bit better being honest instead of playing costume party.

How could you know (other than MSM 'propaganda/reports') such before the fact?

The protestors certainly had no problem praising fox news and their involvment. If you really intend not to be partisan at all, if these protests were intend for a non-partisan approach and concern regarding this administration it should not have involved fox news and the typical bush politicians. Simple, dont hold their hands.

Not concerned about what CNN or MSNBC said, im concerned about what was suppose to be a "non-partisan movement" that ended up being a bush fest. Simple.

You weren't there.

99.9% (the actual percentage) of americans weren't there and did not care much about it. Just another Bush/fringe fest.

The movment began well before Fox

Your quiet right, fox never gave a damn prior before they saw the advantages of it.

Criticize the methodology and ideology if you can/will

I have. You can continue to lie to yourself and assume this movement is pure, but likewise its the same neocon movement attempt I saw back in 99'. Folks seperating themselves from anything partisan, yet that lead us to the worst administration Iv lived under. Bush snr wasnt as worse.

As far as ideology is concerned, the event I attended included members of all parties, and no party.

The overal tea party protests were pushed by partisan individuals, namely fox, the only major speakers there were Bush politicians and GOP members who were looking for a stage to launch their 2012 bids. Didnt matter how "pure" you "thought" your tea party was, it was overal influenced by bush conservatives and the wide consensus by the vast majority of protestors was "socialism" "liberalism" "fascism" and "birth certificates".

No office holders were allowed to speak

When you protested on April 15, you had an agreement with all other mini protests around the nation that there would a unity of protests against the Obama administration, that you would all march under the same banner. This is why you all had it on the same day, this is why you got fox to broadcast various parts of the nation. You agreed to hold the hands of the Bush politicians and fox, you certainly had no issue marching down middle america with them. Dont tell me you had nothing to do with them, if you didnt you would have held a seperate protest at another time, with none of these groups participating.

If you had nothing to do with them, you would have had nothing to do with them. Go figure.

[edit on 19-4-2009 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by jdub297


jdub....you bring up valid points....except....

Fascism? I am afraid not. There is NO current indication of, nor would this modern Internet-savvy allow such an occurence. False accusation.

Socialism? See above....except, IF you really took some time to research the concepts of 'socialism' at its best you'd see that is has NOTHING to do with the dreaded "C" word....(psst! 'communism'....) Two very different things, get educated....

'profligate'....wow!! A great word....heavily burdened with such baggage, though.

It could be said that George W. Bush 'profligated' our current economic situation....but, that would be overly simplistic. The dire straights the World is currently finding itself were 'profligated' well before the GWB era.

In fact, it began during his Father's Admin....and Clinton (42) innocently and stupidly went along....

But, once the basics were set in motion, the other idiots, to include Sen. Phil Gramm, just kept the snow-ball rollin' down the hill....eventually, the mass of the avalanche has to hit somewhere.....well, guess what? It's here!!!!!

Now....dig ourselves out....would you use a spoon, or a back-hoe???

Time is of the essence!!!!!! Need the best, biggest way out!!!! Fast,now....don't make the mistake of Herbert Hoover!!!! He suffocated in the avalanche!!!!

'nuf said.....

I look at all these tea parties and it looks like a total show look at the people who showed up to speak over here in Texas we had governor Perry Mr.Trans-Texas Corridor himself trying to pretend he is a supporter of sates rights when the record show this not to be true.All these protests have done other than get people on various watch-lists is further the left/right illusion that our entire system is so dependent upon.I am a Ron Paul supporter but,I have never forgotten how Fox,CNN and others tried to paint him as a loon or a domestic terrorist.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Well said & researched. Starred and flagged too.

None of this suprises me in the least. The neocons who got us into this mess to begin with don't like the idea of tax money being spent on real issues for ordinary americans. Too bad. Who cares WHAT they think???

Unfortunately there will always be a gullible few who buy the self-serving propaganda seved up by FOX on a daily basis. Do these people not realise who OWNS FOX??

The mind boggles at the ignorance...

Oh well...

J.

[edit on 19-4-2009 by jimbo999]

reply to post by weedwhacker


Very well put WW

Socialist Fascist doctrine, the handbook must be absolutely amazing...
Does sound a lot to me like night day, peaceful brutality, vegan carnivore and pleasant hemorrhoid.

Although I might be able to wrangle up a back ho e - yada yada yada...( come on, I'm Mental ---- sorry)

Jdub - it sounds like you are trying to rustle up as many unpopular notions and create a necklace of doom.

I think you should recognize that many of these concepts are in competition with eachother as a matter of definition and history... Regardless, if you stay away from these terms and just paint a picture or probable process we can get this mother on the road to fiery debate!!!!


[edit on 19-4-2009 by mental modulator]

[edit on 19-4-2009 by mental modulator]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


The very first reason you assert as support for your opposition is "Fox support." You fail to address or accept that the movement predates any "FOX" involvement by weeks. False predicate. Not legitimate. Start at January 21, 2009. There is no "Newt," "Bush," or "FOX," involvement!
Come up with a reason, not an excuse!

Your base reply is "Bushies." There is no such word outside of a liberal lexicon. "Ad hominem" is not a response. Still no legitimate support except, "I'm a liberal ." Are you afraud to state that THIS is your SOLE basis for opposition?

Can you reply with facts and ideoloy and leave the words "Bushie" and "FOX" out? I doubt it, because you don't know what to say, except question the motives of Tea Party advocates. You can't identify an ideology because you don't have one, do you?

(If all you're going to do is say Bushies and FOX, save it and us, and just don't reply. You are an empty vessel into which Obama and Pelosi and Reid can piss their vitriol for you to spew back for them. How shallow to have no position of your own!)

Will you state why you doubt the legitimacy of Tea Party advocates? Is it because no one can possibly oppose Obama/Liberalism? You can't because you are nothing more than an echo chamber for other voices.

Let me make this real clear:

Many Americans do not agree with Government control of corporations.
Do you?

Many Americans do not agree with usurpation of States Rights, such as determination of parameters for education, marriage, insurance and mortgage underwriting, and abortion.
Do you?

Many Americans do not support the Obama agenda of Federal control of energy, education and health care.
Do you?

Many Americans do not agree with the Obama adminstration's 2010 Budget allocations and "Stimulus Package."
(Since these did not exist before Obama's administration, they can not be 'Bushy.')

Since CNN covered these events, why don't you relate the process to CNN? Instead, you pick a favored target of "FOX," as if their coverage affects the motivation of the participants. NPR covered the movement. MSNBC covered the movement. The "big three" broadcasters covered these events. YOU are the one "holding hands" (more like a lip-lock) in your obsession with FOX coverage. Participants would have done so, and were such, WITHOUT FOX!

You do not have one shred of evidence that these events were FOX inspired. Coverage does not equal support!

"Holding hands" with CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, NPR, et al, as you do, tells us what about you?

What evidence do you have of a "Bush fest?" I heard not one reference to any bush at the events I attended. Give us a source, or drop it. Do you deny that Democtrats in Congress are now questioning Obama's policies?

I agree that opposition to Obama was a uniting factor, but that does not equal 'pro-Bush.' Do you not understand that? Someone can oppose wrongheaded policy without being sold to something else (much as you are wed to Obama/Liberalism).

Middle America marched together regardless of who followed, watched, cheered or booed. You don't understand that because you have no respect for Middle America.

If you are so politically astute, tell me when and where Obama first called for an end to "Middle-classism" in America. Yes, he did. More than once. Orally and in writing.

Can't answer, or won't? You, like Obama, want to see an end to the Middle Class, don't you?
DON'T YOU? ANSWER THIS ONE QUESTION.

You have yet to address the ideology; don't say "I have" when you
have not. I'm calling your bluff right here.

Do you agree with Government control of corporations (Fascism)?

Do you agree with Federal Government intervention into States' Rights? (Marriage, education, insurance and mortgage underwriting, abortion, private production of energy?) (Socialism)

Do you agree with 'spreading the wealth' and social engineering at a Federal level? (Socialism)

Do you agree with 2010 budget and "Stimulus" allocations ans priorities? Do you know what they are? Attendees did! SPEAK UP ON THIS.

See, it's not hard to see, if you're willing to admit it.

You don't "buy" Tea Parties only because you are sold on Obama! No other reason. Just say it.

This is the 4th time I've asked you directly to state a position based on fact and ideology, not platitude and pejoratives. Go back and respond on point with facts if you are not scared or incapable. I dare you.(Leaving out "Bushies," "fringers," and "FOX.")

You no doubt have neither the guts nor ability to state and support a position.

I fully expect your reply, if any, to be "Bushies" and "FOX."

I just did it for you.

[edit on 19-4-2009 by jdub297]

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Fascism? I am afraid not. There is NO current indication of, nor would this modern Internet-savvy allow such an occurence. False accusation.

Wrong! "Fascism is the merger of Government and corporations." Benito Mussolini. Tell the foregoing to G.M. and the TARP banks/insurers.

Socialism? See above....

Then what do you call "spreading the wealth" (B. Obama, 10/2008) Or Federal government dictates about what States should do about local matters, such as marriage, education, abortion?

IF you really took some time to research the concepts of 'socialism' at its best you'd see that is has NOTHING to do with the dreaded "C" word....(psst! 'communism'....) Two very different things

Please show me the post where I equated the two. You are misleading at best, making up straw men, and more likely, just plain disingenuous.

get educated....

I did. Your turn.

'profligate'....wow!! A great word....heavily burdened with such baggage, though.

Can't dispute it so you disparage it. Illegitimate. Disingenuous.
Spending without limits is by definition, "profligate."

It could be said that George W. Bush 'profligated' our current economic situation....but, that would be overly simplistic. The dire straights the World is currently finding itself were 'profligated' well before the GWB era.

This makes no sense because you don't understand the meaning of the words you try to use. GWB overcommitted with Rx Overhaul. Congress overspent on Rx and Iraq. Executive proposes, legislative spends. "Get educated."

This all relates to "I don't buy the tea party thing" how?

jw

[edit on 19-4-2009 by jdub297]