Ron Paul, "North Korea is not a threat."

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
I seem to remember Americans saying that another country was a threat to the United States- Iraq. They "had" weapons of mass destruction", and they were a real threat to the US. 90% of Americans believed that also.
Now here we are 7 years later, and little North Korea is a "threat" to the US.

Haven't we learned anything?

I guess not.

That would work terrifically if every thing North Korea was doing they not only told everyone about, but proved.

But hey, /clap for you.
I guess the anti-America bandwagon isn't dead yet after-all!

Originally posted by Iblis
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That would work terrifically if every thing North Korea was doing they not only told everyone about, but proved.

But hey, /clap for you.
I guess the anti-America bandwagon isn't dead yet after-all!

So now it is anti-American to not be terrified of North Korea? Well if you mean the majority of Americans are I guess that is true, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Look I cannot understand how anyone can be even slightly worried about North Korea. If you are scared of North Korea you should be frozen in terror curled up in the fetal position in a bomb shelter 24/7 due to the threat posed by China or Russia.

Every country in the world will have nukes within 20-30 years, you better learn to deal with it, because progress cannot be halted forever.

Someone really needs to explain to me why mutually assured destruction which has worked for 50 years in much more tense times no longer applies - or in the case of North Korea and the US completely one sided destruction(N. Korea).

Why is it so hard to understand N.Korea's leaderships position? If you were running a ruthless dictatorship that pretty much has no allies in the world, what is the one thing you can do to stay in power? Recklessly threaten violence if anyone messes with you of course. That is not the same thing as attacking anyone. If they at some point actually make an aggressive move at that point then they are a threat.

reply to post by Iblis

I guess the anti-America bandwagon isn't dead yet after-all!

Well, I don't think that saying NK isn't a threat makes one an anti-American. I believe that one can be patriotic without agreeing with the "official line" of some politicians that don't have the guts to go to war, but have no problem sending my grandchildren to war. After all, the last 3 presidents never went to war and only one, GWB, was even in the service.

reply to post by Wormwood Squirm

I can confidently say that professionals in the world of foreign policy, American statesmen, etc. are playing a delicate game dealing with the entire planet and countries like NK, Iran etc. I also imagine they have 20 and 30 yr plans and more to make the world a better place.

yep, the same experts that missed 9/11, got us into Iraq and Afghanistan, focusing in on Iran, and are now working on a plan so the world will love us.

reply to post by Autonomous


Oh My...

Thank you for proving every point I made.

We should BUTT OUT?

North Korea can now hit American soil with a nuke. We should BUTT OUT!

Iran can hit American bases, Israel, Europe. We should BUTT OUT!

OK.

Europe has been spoiled by the US protecting them for the past 60 years. Now they refuse to protect ANYONE including THEMSELVES.

If every two-bit dictator with cash and a scientist wants a nuke we should BUT OUT! Who cares that an angry general or a simple overthrow could cause a nuke to go off.

You are ok with North Korea, Iran, Pakistan, Israel all having nukes.

You are the same title as the creator of this post.

reply to post by deessell
Bravo.. I'm on the same page here. What you stated is true. North Korea was indeed better off than the South during the Soviet era. South Korea was under the usual type of dictator favored by US - Corrupt and oppressive - Rhee regime. Natural disaster, the fall of soviet and the US sanction done in North Korea.

The reason why US economical boycott was implemented on particular countries is to facilitate "Regime change". A country that's the US or US corporation has interest in. The use of the target nation citizens, with the usual media and intelligence services meddling are the main apparatus - look at all those "Color revolutions".

The trick is to make the citizens believe that their main cause of their sufferings are the govt fault - not the imposed sanctions. With so-called exiles, NGOs and media flaming that idea. The problem is.. like every a government entity, like each individual.. trigger self-preservation to survive in the face of threats (Especially from a world hyper-power). They react by increasing military presence, douse any opposition they can find and enact stricter laws and regulations.. "oppression". The trapped is tripped.. ripe for propaganda and further sanction. The media will hyped on any bad incident they find or even manufacture some. Just look at Myanmar.

The reason why US is flaming North Korea is that it is somewhat the only reason to station troops in South Korea, with the ultimate hope of placing it's military right at the borders of both China and Russia. The US is technically hinders the improving relation of both Koreas - the sunshine policy was in fact working, and there were numerous protest against US bases in the South. Then came Bush with his "Axis of Evil" and the "Super note" accusation that was never proven. Then invaded Iraq.. who wouldn't wants nukes, North Korea restarted their nuclear program.

The reason why there is two korea today is because of USA. After WWII, KIM's father was a celebrated war hero, while the US landed in the south used Japanese collaborators as their choice of govt, causing huge discontent among the whole korea. The reason against communism is moot when you support oppressive dictatorship.. it's just imperial ambition.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
Have you ever thought that maybe you should independently verify the facts behind an issue, instead of simply taking your "oh so righteous" candidate's word for it?

Sure i have and that's what i did before bothering other people with my views.

North Korea is a HUGE threat, not only in their development of weapons systems,

They have developed absolutely nothing ( well nothing any intelligency agency has ever mentioned) one can not get in Pakistan or a host of other nations. North Korea is no threat in itself.

but also in the fact that they are a proxy component of China's War Machine,

I would like to see some proof for that as the last time we had a war on that subcontinent the US backed dictator in the South started the war.

AND they are also selling/developing the Launch Carrier Vehicles for Iran's Nuclear Programs.

I don't even know if that a alleged claim but perhaps you will be willing to tell me where exactly the CIA makes that claim and then go on to explain to me how Iran with Medium range ballistic missiles are any more dangerous than North Korea?

You remind me of a certain grouping of people who stated that the Afghans and their "Terror Cells" half-a-world away were not a worry of ours before 9-11. It goes to show how much it truly pays to be ignorant to the world around you.

There is still no specific evidence that links OBL or Afghan terrorist to 9-11. It's all AT BEST circumstansial but mostly just propaganda for which no actual proof has ever been presented. This again goes to show how governments can lie to their people and start wars based on trumped up charges; they sure found a lot of WOMD in Iraq? Why do some people find it so hard to learn from previous experience or like circumstances?

As for the OP, where did anyone say that North Korea was simply launching a "SAT", with no ulterior motives?

It's no one's business if they do. North Korea has never threatened to do anything but defend themselves which is far more than can be said for the US national security state who seems comfortable in attacking even nations that never threathened to attack the US.

Are you actually taking the word of the DPRK's own Media Sources?

I doubt he is but why is eastern propaganda so very different to you than western? DId the North Koreans claim that South Korea had WOMD and promptly invaded them? Did they claim that South Korea ( Taliban ) were protecting 'terrorist' , without providing any proof, and then invade them despite South Korea demands to see some proof before extraditing the alleged terrorist?

Can you explain to me how North Korea is the logical bad guys in all of this? Who is destroying world stability by staging two invasions in as many years?

Stellar

Originally posted by Jazzyguy
This is just unbelievable, I thought he could run for 2012 presidency if the right has no better candidate but this is just so incredibly irresponsible/inconsiderate.

It's certainly inconsistent with popular western propaganda,yes. I suppose that must mean it's not true? Like Zaphod says , logic is dead.

DPRK is a real threat not just to the US but also to the world because they sell nuclear and missile technologies in the black market

Proof please.

(they got nothing to lose), that is one of many ways the regime survives.

Actually they have everything to lose in a war with SOuth Korea or the United States. You don't think they remember what happened to North Korea fifty years ago during a purely conventional war? Please go study your history before you presume to know anything about the present.

Complete ignorant by RP there, now I don't think he should run for the presidency at all, luckily I heard he won't run.

It's certainly stupid of him to presume that one can tell the truth when lies are so widely accepted as gospel. RP has no chance as long as your the standard the voter he must aim to 'please' without a imperial world domination policy.

Stellar

Originally posted by xbranscombex
A few counterpoints on his arguments:
Satellites are fired into space, not at other nations...
They don't have a "right". They lost that right about 5 years ago.

Well at least in theory you can not lose your human or national rights. Obviously on the international scene ( and in individual interaction) power and resources dictates who gets what and at what price.

2) The idea that N Korean technology is too primitive to be a threat

a. They have already done nuclear tests

So what? How are they going to use them without getting blamed for it no matter who actually did it? Don't you see that these 'terrorist nations' in fact have every reason to police the 'black market' and see that others do not use them as scapegoats?

b. They are an unstable military dictatorship, there's always the chance they'll try something stupid

More unstable than the US national security state the created two wars based on no evidence at all? How is North Korea doing anything as wreckless and destablizing to the world? Why hasn't those crazy pakistani US puppets started a nuclear war with India despite the fact that they had running border wars and skirmishes for decades? How are dictatorships 'unstable'?

Actually, the US has yet to release an official statement and I haven't heard talk from any polititians besides the president. Paul seems to be more alarmist now then any other polititians with his talk of 'bombing NK'.

Paul is not the alarmist and the US national security state makes regular threats agains Iran and North Korea; not the other way round. The North Koreans just wants a official peace treaty with the US ( the US would not sign after Korean war) so relations can be normalized. Since the war has not been officially ended by the US the North Koreans have had to keep up a horrendously expensive defensive effort for half a century. So much for the North Koreans being the problem.

No one said they were. The concern is that they'll attack S Korea or Japan, liberal democracies and allies that are greatly beneficial to the United States for both strategic and economic purposes.

Attacking either is a re-intiation of hostilies in a war that never ended. Either way there are American troops in both South Korea and Japan which i'm sure will somehow end up in the line of fire thus giving the US a easy way to restart that war. As for South Korea and Japan having 'liberal democracies' where do you guys get this stuff from? Liberal? South Korea? Japan? Liberal? Unbelievable.

An it should be noted that those countries are pretty pissed right now- check out the protests going on. The situation with NK isn't just a case of the US pulling the strings, these people who are directly affected have a say and the world should take that into account.

The Japanese were the last to occupy North Korea so one can well image how the former imperialist are still angry that they lost their colony. Since when were imperial powers ever happy with losing their 'possessions'? As for the protest in the South they watch much of the same propaganda that you do so i'm not surprised that they share your fears being litterally under the guns in a war the US national security state refuses to end.

NK started the war

Actually South Korea started the war but perhaps that's a moot point given how many large skirmishes and cross border raids there were in the months and weeks leading up to the overwhelming North Korean response to yet another South Korean attack.

and its citizens are deeply embroiled in a cult of personality and isolation from the rest of the world the likes of which weren't seen even in the USSR.

And that is their fault? Why do the US refuse to end the war and sign a formal peace treaty with North Korea? Why does it keep up it's blockade of Cuba? Who has ALL the power to make a lasting peace?

To say that they would have given up and stopped fighting is absurd.

In your misinformed mind i am sure that seems impossible.

He then says that we should cut off money. Sounds like sanctions.

Rp isn't perfect but this mostly stems from Rp's attempts to balance the US budget; save the US economy before anyone elses.

Damn right it fails, but that doesn't mean it does so peacefully.

Presuming that the 'million man army' had any time or energy left for training this year given how much time they spend working the fields.

Fascism didn't fall peacefully either.

How could it after being so widely supported and massively funded? Why feign mock surprise when the bear you fed for a year turns on you when you suddenly attempt to starve it?

North Korea is only a threat as long as the US sanctions and threats continue and can not fade until the US chooses to normalize relations and allow North Korea to interact with the world as any nation would like to.

North Korea is trapped in a horrible suspended animation only the US can release it from; the fact that North Korea is like Afghanistan Iraq blamed for it's problem is as sad and tragic as it's evidence of just how completely propagandized Americans and westerners have become .

Stellar

Originally posted by Wormwood Squirm
Well isn't it easy for you to say what the US "should" do!

Well i would be more than happy if the US government just did what it's people wanted but since that isn't even happening telling the US national security state what to do from abroad is quite the wasted exercise.

Our presence in places like South Korea and around the world IS to deal with Russia and China.

You mean it's far easier to build bases and do such expensively idiotic things than it is to stop undermining the US economy by allowing the Chinese to manipulate their currency in their own economic interest? Why don't the US government , if they were acting in their economic self interest, just simply enact the trade laws that would rob China of it's main export market? The WORSE possible solution is staging troops around China or Russia.

At least your right in stating that these troops are being stationed to 'deal' with people even if you don't seem to realise that it's all the rest , not China or Russia.

I can confidently say that professionals in the world of foreign policy, American statesmen, etc. are playing a delicate game dealing with the entire planet and countries like NK, Iran etc. I also imagine they have 20 and 30 yr plans and more to make the world a better place.

I can confidently say that you are the poster child of a succesfully propaganda campaign. Would you be so kind as to to tell me for whom they are trying to make the world a better place given how the vast majority are not better off and don't seem to be becoming so?

If they calculate that a threat will emerge from a certain area in the future which would put Americans or other honorable countries people at risk then they had better be dealing with it.

Which is a conclusion based on the presumption that they are actually acting in your benefit. What will they have to do to you to make you realise that you are not included in their plans short of a boot on your head?

Their skills and wisdom to stay in South Korea and to surround Iran far exceed your ability to understand the reasons as one Internet forum surfer.

Or apparently your ability to understand that not all internet denizens are as ignorant as others. The king knows best hey and who will argue when they are one of the lucky few who are still allowed to sit at his table? I wonder how long you will think so highly of the king if you were part of the vast majority who worked the fields 12 hours a day?

Unfortunately for NK, they aren't playing "our" game. There is no other field for them to play on.

No, they aren't playing the capitalist game in the same old way and that is why their people must suffer just as the Cubans, Russians, Slav's, Iraqi's Chinese, Indians and so many others. Trying to create more equitable means of distribution and control of resources is a good way to get a country black listed on this capitalist owned world.

There is one earth so it seems to be "our way or the fried way" if for nothing else than to continue our way of life and to protect our children.

The problem being that 'our' way ( well done on buying into the propaganda) is tottaly unsustainable as long as it rests on the exploitation of the majority of the planet. The scarcity paradigm played a large part in gaining the meager participation of the US citizenry but even that is based on entirely false premises; there is enough for everyone on the planet to enjoy western style freedoms as derived from western style access to resource and energy.

We DON'T have to fight the Chinese, Russians or anyone else unless they make it clear that their economic systems is in fact designed for similar imperialistic ends and not just the more logical, but sometimes look-alike, quest for economic self determination and national self defense. It's never been easy for socialism in a world run by rabid reactionary capitalism.

Stellar



[edit on 11-4-2009 by StellarX]

New Ron Paul video on NK.



He suggests trading with NK, from the video and also from this interesting source.

CFR on Ron Paul

North Korea Policy Rep. Paul (R-TX) has voiced opposition to sanctions against North Korea. He believes the country could serve as a market for U.S. goods, saying, “Every market we close to our nation's farmers is a market exploited by foreign farmers.”