"Intelligent Design" is a conspiracy.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by R13sg0And other then side tracking you don't show debate on my original post. I would really like that. So let's get back to that.

To avoid confusion, are you referring to the first post you made in this thread? Just want to derail any misunderstanding preemptively.

Yes my first post on this topic:
link

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by imd12c4funn

 

The thing is, creationists can't get along without answering the question of "how did the universe start?" They require someone/something to have charge of the whole thing for some reason. Why a "god" would create a Universe that is 99.9999999999999% vacuum is not a question they can deal with.

But on the other hand, it can answer many questions. Why we are here, Were life came from, is there life after dead. It makes life less meaningless.
Of course there will be many interpretations of God and what he/she does.
But we don't have to look further then the bible to see the truth.... that was actually a joke. The bible is bull# for science of course.
But i do strongly encourage the idea of a deity behind life and the creation of the universe (and everything around it). Even in the vacuum of space there is energy and we know that this energy can carry information, instantly, backwards in time and maybe even forwards in time. Although the last would be a bit tricky to research. Anyway a lot of research has been done and speculations have been made around and about this energy. All equally interesting, i was most impressed by P.E.A.R. (google that, no wait here have a link) and their research on random number generators. They have been very scientific about all this.

The mind starts to wonder. All matter is energy. If this energy is able to carry information, and everything is energy... and this energy is limitless, knows no time and space... how is it possible that matter is in a certain place in time? How is information carried? Where does the information come from? And before the big bang all this energy was in 1 spot, the singularity, then why shouldn't we call it God? What else could describe it?
Let me put it this way. This energy created everything we know, and it knows no time, then everything we know was already there.

I'm sorry for the side track here so let's put it in a Evolution perspective. If this energy could 'talk' to DNA, and i point you in the direction of biophoton emissions. (What is a photon, it has the property of a wave as well as particle. So it is the best way for matter to interact with the energy-field.) And DNA is emitting photons as well as receiving them. Then how easy is it to make the assumption that the energy has an impact on DNA itself? If anything, it could push evolution, act as a steering force.

It would eliminate all the shaky 'random mutations speculations'. It would eliminate the 'how life began' question. And it would eliminate the question of the origin of conciousness. All with scientific research that has already been done. And with the same facts on which evolution is build today.

And i know this sounds far fetched if you hear this without knowledge of the research that leads up to something like the hypothesis that is put forward here. But it's really intriguing and really bypasses bible nuts. (The energy is obviously not biased towards anything, it just is a Pool of data) Plus that is all pretty much scientifically researchable and much (all) research has been done. It's not mainstream research, but i don;t care as long as it is done scientifically.

So it is the findings of Quantum mechanics, P.E.A.R research and Biophoton emissions that is basics for this idea.

Your thoughts?

Originally posted by R13sg0

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by imd12c4funn

 

The thing is, creationists can't get along without answering the question of "how did the universe start?" They require someone/something to have charge of the whole thing for some reason. Why a "god" would create a Universe that is 99.9999999999999% vacuum is not a question they can deal with.

But on the other hand, it can answer many questions. Why we are here, Were life came from, is there life after dead. It makes life less meaningless.
Of course there will be many interpretations of God and what he/she does.
But we don't have to look further then the bible to see the truth.... that was actually a joke. The bible is bull# for science of course.
But i do strongly encourage the idea of a deity behind life and the creation of the universe (and everything around it). Even in the vacuum of space there is energy and we know that this energy can carry information, instantly, backwards in time and maybe even forwards in time. Although the last would be a bit tricky to research. Anyway a lot of research has been done and speculations have been made around and about this energy. All equally interesting, i was most impressed by P.E.A.R. (google that, no wait here have a link) and their research on random number generators. They have been very scientific about all this.

The mind starts to wonder. All matter is energy. If this energy is able to carry information, and everything is energy... and this energy is limitless, knows no time and space... how is it possible that matter is in a certain place in time? How is information carried? Where does the information come from? And before the big bang all this energy was in 1 spot, the singularity, then why shouldn't we call it God? What else could describe it?
Let me put it this way. This energy created everything we know, and it knows no time, then everything we know was already there.

I'm sorry for the side track here so let's put it in a Evolution perspective. If this energy could 'talk' to DNA, and i point you in the direction of biophoton emissions. (What is a photon, it has the property of a wave as well as particle. So it is the best way for matter to interact with the energy-field.) And DNA is emitting photons as well as receiving them. Then how easy is it to make the assumption that the energy has an impact on DNA itself? If anything, it could push evolution, act as a steering force.

It would eliminate all the shaky 'random mutations speculations'. It would eliminate the 'how life began' question. And it would eliminate the question of the origin of conciousness. All with scientific research that has already been done. And with the same facts on which evolution is build today.

And i know this sounds far fetched if you hear this without knowledge of the research that leads up to something like the hypothesis that is put forward here. But it's really intriguing and really bypasses bible nuts. (The energy is obviously not biased towards anything, it just is a Pool of data) Plus that is all pretty much scientifically researchable and much (all) research has been done. It's not mainstream research, but i don;t care as long as it is done scientifically.

So it is the findings of Quantum mechanics, P.E.A.R research and Biophoton emissions that is basics for this idea.

Your thoughts?

This is a VERY good post.

Check out the book "My Big TOE (Theory of Everything) by Thomas Campbell. I highly recommend it.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
IDers are conspiring to inject religion into schools under the guise of "science". Dover, Del., and the Evolution Wars in Kansas have shown this to be the case.

Umm, conspiracy. Yeah because we all know conspirators like their agenda decided in courts, publically. LOL. As far as I could follow, IDers and the Behe parade where quite open about their agenda. No conspiracy. EPIC FAIL.

BTW, it is only to do with State funded schools. Secular in nature. So your claim that IDers are conspiring to inject religion into schools fails.Resoundingly, Purely because your thread OP lacks anything but a rant, kind of like a preacher, alot of fluff, but no substance to it.

reply to post by R13sg0


"But on the other hand, it can answer many questions. Why we are here, Were life came from, is there life after dead. It makes life less meaningless."

That's it in a nutshell. Creationists are afraid of the dark. They're afraid life doesn't have a grand purpose. They can't conceive of a universe without them in it. (Despite the fact the universe got along just fine before they appeared.) Apparently the fact that they're here at all isn't enough, they want eternal existence. There's no reason to believe the universe is set up that way.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
IDers are conspiring to inject religion into schools under the guise of "science". Dover, Del., and the Evolution Wars in Kansas have shown this to be the case.

What I'm wondering is if they think the whole country is stupid enough to believe that ID is anything but a sham?

The Bible was taught in schools in early America and no one had a problem with it then and they shouldn't have no problem with it now.

Thanks,
TT

Originally posted by texastigThe Bible was taught in schools in early America and no one had a problem with it then and they shouldn't have no problem with it now.

Thanks,
TT

Okay, then, let's go back to the 19th Century shall we? Do you really think then and now are equivalent? And, do you think the bible should be taught in lieu of science, as it was then? Do you think teaching the bible in school is a good idea? If so, do you have a problem with teaching science in church?

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by texastigThe Bible was taught in schools in early America and no one had a problem with it then and they shouldn't have no problem with it now.

Thanks,
TT

Okay, then, let's go back to the 19th Century shall we? Do you really think then and now are equivalent? And, do you think the bible should be taught in lieu of science, as it was then? Do you think teaching the bible in school is a good idea? If so, do you have a problem with teaching science in church?

I think it should be fair but it's not.
The schools are independent and paid for by local taxes
and the taxpayers should have the say not the government.
If one can't be taught then the other shouldn't either.
Fairness is the key.
Thanks,
TT

reply to post by Gawdzilla


All we have now is corporate skyscrapers, micro chips, television, cell phones, and the like. Now all we need is mass RFID chipping to top it all off.

All of them will be useless by 2012. That was said by NASA.

The Bible is a book of prophecy and not one has been wrong. Its not a matter of interpretation because you can cross reference anything that may not be clear.

2 Esdras Chapter 12:

"1 And it came to pass, whiles the lion spake these words unto the eagle, I saw,

2 And, behold, the head that remained and the four wings appeared no more, and the two went unto it and set themselves up to reign, and their kingdom was small, and fill of uproar.

3 And I saw, and, behold, they appeared no more, and the whole body of the eagle was burnt so that the earth was in great fear: then awaked I out of the trouble and trance of my mind, and from great fear, and said unto my spirit,

4 Lo, this hast thou done unto me, in that thou searchest out the ways of the Highest.

5 Lo, yet am I weary in my mind, and very weak in my spirit; and little strength is there in me, for the great fear wherewith I was afflicted this night.

6 Therefore will I now beseech the Highest, that he will comfort me unto the end.

7 And I said, Lord that bearest rule, if I have found grace before thy sight, and if I am justified with thee before many others, and if my prayer indeed be come up before thy face;

8 Comfort me then, and shew me thy servant the interpretation and plain difference of this fearful vision, that thou mayest perfectly comfort my soul.

9 For thou hast judged me worthy to shew me the last times. "

Obadiah 1:4 "Though you exalt yourself as the eagle, and though you set your nest among the stars, there will I bring you down, said the LORD."

Revelation 17:18 "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Revelation 18:4 " And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Revelation 18:5 "For her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities."

Jeremiah 51:9 "We applied healing to Babylon, but she was not healed; Forsake her and let us each go to his own country, For her judgment has reached to heaven And towers up to the very skies."

Jeremiah 51:6 "Flee from the midst of Babylon, And each of you save his life! Do not be destroyed in her punishment, For this is the LORD'S time of vengeance; He is going to render recompense to her."

reply to post by watchtheashes


"The Bible is a book of prophecy and not one has been wrong. "

You really are blind to any possibility other than the BuyBull being the Word of God, aren't you?

Not one has been wrong, you say? You state this authoritatively? So, give me a complete list of predictions made in the BuyBull and how they came true, please.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
reply to post by R13sg0

 

"But on the other hand, it can answer many questions. Why we are here, Were life came from, is there life after dead. It makes life less meaningless."

That's it in a nutshell. Creationists are afraid of the dark. They're afraid life doesn't have a grand purpose. They can't conceive of a universe without them in it. (Despite the fact the universe got along just fine before they appeared.) Apparently the fact that they're here at all isn't enough, they want eternal existence. There's no reason to believe the universe is set up that way.

I just mentioned the reasons above. You are an absolute horror to debate with, if you can call it debate.
I'm not talking about a religion here. I'm talking science. Proof. Facts. And it points to a creator.
It is you that is happy in the dark. Happy without a great purpose. Where did that lead us? Oh yeah, into Nazism. Life has no value, Some aren;t as evolved as us like negro's and jews. You don't understand that your thoughts lead to extremism in that direction.
Where did you find an extremist buddhist? Nowhere, that means they do something right. Learn from that.
In order to makes this planet a happy planet, life needs value and life needs purpose. And when science, of all things, is only SLIGHTLY pointing into that direction, YOU SHOULD GRAB IT WITH BOTH HANDS.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Why does everyone feel the need to debunk the Bible? No one debunks the Buddhists or the Hindus? The Bible shows itself to be the word of God. The only book that shows intelligence designed the design. DNA does not randomly encode itself into life. That's like believing in spontaneous generation.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

All we have now is corporate skyscrapers, micro chips, television, cell phones, and the like. Now all we need is mass RFID chipping to top it all off.

All of them will be useless by 2012. That was said by NASA.

The Bible is a book of prophecy and not one has been wrong. Its not a matter of interpretation because you can cross reference anything that may not be clear.

Have you ever considered that the bible is used as guideline instead of prophecy. Well well well.... there you have it. The great secret revealed.
When you use the bible as guideline, all this # happpens. When you see it as prophecy then suddenly it's a miracle... The bible is not a miracle it is a book. And thousands read and live by it's guidelines.
Life is circles, round an round, people recreate what was written about history. And if you are to blind to see that. Then you can't be saved. It's time you start to turn your thinking 180 degrees. Guideline for powerful men, a prophecy for the gullible. Remember those words.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

Why does everyone feel the need to debunk the Bible? No one debunks the Buddhists or the Hindus? The Bible shows itself to be the word of God. The only book that shows intelligence designed the design. DNA does not randomly encode itself into life. That's like believing in spontaneous generation.

There is no need for debunking the bible, because it is an old book with ancient texts. There is a need for people to understand that it is just a book. It has no special power, it doesn't open itself and has no moving pictures in it. It is a book. Pages with ink. Like millions of other books. And there are more books that show intelligence. Only a book can show intelligence, it is the reader that that needs intelligence to read it. And let me tell you that you are not even close to comprehend God, so don't be cocky and pretend you can comprehend 'his words'. Every one has a different angle, a different perspective about the bible. So, don't pretend that yours, of that of your small group is any better then the rest.
There is also another reason why Buddhist and Hindus don;t need 'debunking' because they cause no harm. It's the Muslims, Christians and Jews that hold the same ideas and follow each other in the same dogma, but with different interpretations of the words in a book.

reply to post by R13sg0


All I'm trying to say is maybe we've lost touch with what the ancient peoples had with nature and the universe. Technology was sort of like a desensitization. Sure it explains how things work but not why they came to work. Quantum fluctuations and parallel universes. That's a bigger leap of faith than faith in God.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
reply to post by R13sg0

 

All I'm trying to say is maybe we've lost touch with what the ancient peoples had with nature and the universe. Technology was sort of like a desensitization. Sure it explains how things work but not why they came to work. Quantum fluctuations and parallel universes. That's a bigger leap of faith than faith in God.

"Faith" doesn't enter into it. Well, if you're a Hovind acolyte it does, but not if you have any science education at all. Science doesn't say, "Well, you just have to have faith that it works", they ask why it works. Theists aren't allowed to ask why. Why they put up with that is a question.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


You're not seeing the beauty of the stars and the like. Explain the Southern and Northern Cross constellations. Are they making that shape by chance? If even one of the four constants in the universe were changed by one little bit we wouldn't be here right now debating the existence of an intelligence beyond our comprehension.

Originally posted by R13sg0
All matter is energy.

Are you referring to Einstein's E=mc^2?

"m" in that equation stands for mass, not matter. Mass is a property of matter, but it's certainly not matter. Further energy isn't mass anymore than it's the speed of light in vacuum squared.

And DNA is emitting photons as well as receiving them. Then how easy is it to make the assumption that the energy has an impact on DNA itself? If anything, it could push evolution, act as a steering force.

Well known fact, UV radiation is carcinogenic and thus causes mutations.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by rhinoceros]

reply to post by Gawdzilla


I have a viable scientific option to think about before you judge whether there is a God/ID/Infinite/Source out there and it is found: here.

Rather heady - I admit.

Let's get your view on God and parallel universes! Perhaps we are too quick to leave a power with consciousness out of the picture!

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Originally posted by R13sg0
All matter is energy.

Are you referring to Einstein's E=mc^2?

"m" in that equation stands for mass, not matter. Mass is a property of matter, but it's certainly not matter. Further energy isn't mass anymore than it's the speed of light in vacuum squared.

No, and btw Einstein is wrong with E=mc² But I'll leave that for another topic. What i was referring to is a thing called the uncertaincy principle in Quantum mechanics and it's observer effect. In short (very short) it basically comes down to this: A particle is only there when and where u measure it, otherwise it exists as a waveform.

And DNA is emitting photons as well as receiving them. Then how easy is it to make the assumption that the energy has an impact on DNA itself? If anything, it could push evolution, act as a steering force.

Well known fact, UV radiation is carcinogenic and thus causes mutations.

No no no, biophoton emission, like the words implies, is DNA EMITTING light. Photons to be exact. The fact that i can say that it also receives information i can point to an experiment (i have it laying around somewhere, i don't recall the name of the researcher) Where light (laser) was passed through a fertilised frog egg to a fertilized lizard egg. The lizardegg developed as a frog and became a frog. (i might have it switched, but this is the basic idea)

And UV light has in no way an impact on semen, eggs or embryos where mutation should occur. General believe is that UV causes (skin)cancer. It wasnt a very strong point.

Edit:
Sorry couldnt find the paper that quickly so i point to this link for research on photon interaction. you may disregard my previous statement because i cant find proof.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by R13sg0]