OTO, or Ordo Templi Orientis

I guess I didn't see your post the first time round... my bad...
by way of compensation I'll tell you this ...
Several years Ago I had the chance to meet Ozzy in person...
I went to his house rang the bell and he met me at the door wearing a pink fuzzy bathrobe... Ah.. an open wearing nothing else bathrobe... Our short little meeting started and ended on an awkward note but I came away from that thinking to myself Ozzy, under all his hype, is probably one of the smartest most intelligent men I've ever met!

reply to post by DaddyBare


I've never met Ozzy in person, although I have met Tony Iommi and Geezer Butler. Sabbath has been my favorite band since the 70's.

A few points to make in regards to Ordo Templi Orientis.

The Order was founded in 1902 by Carl Kellner, an associate of Franz Hartmann, and member of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Light (H.B.L.), and one Theodor Reuss, head of the Bavarian Order of Illuminati, Grand Master of the Swedenborgian Rite of Freemasonry in Germany, Special Inspector for the Martinist Order in Germany, and Magus of the High Council in Germania of the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia.

The Ordo Templi Orientis was originally intended to be an Inner Order of the Academia Masonica. This Order would be organized parallel to the highest degrees of the Memphis and Mizraim Rites of Masonry, and would teach the esoteric Rosicrucian doctrines of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Light, and Kellner's "Key" to Masonic symbolism.

Unlike Masonry, both men and women would be admitted at all levels to this Order, but possession of the various degrees of Craft and High-Grade Freemasonry would be a prerequisite for admission to the Inner Circle of O.T.O.

Both Kellner and Reuss, gained authorization and official Charter to the Antient and Primitive Rite of Memphis of 97°, the Ancient Oriental Rite of Mizraim of 90°, and the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of 33° from John Yarker. For almost a hundred years, this...more than the Co-Masonic practice of accepting Women and the irregular Masonic practice of accepting non-whites, caused much debate on whether the Ordo Templi Orientis was actually a legitimate branch of Masonry. Thanks to the efforts of many Freemasons in the Ars Quatuor Coronatorum, especially Bro. Martin P. Starr, these have recently become accepted as valid lineages.

These rites, along with the Swedenborgian Rite, were adopted as integral elements within the overall scheme of the Order. The Swedenborgian Rite included a version of the Craft degrees. Together, they provided a complete system of Masonic initiation at the disposal of the Order. With the incorporation of these rites, the Order was enabled to operate as a completely independent Masonic system.

Kellner died on June 7, 1905, and Reuss assumed full control of the Order. With the assistance of co-founders Franz Hartmann and Heinrich Klein, Reuss prepared a Constitution for the Order in 1906.

On June 24, 1908, Reuss received episcopal consecration and authority in l'Église Catholique Gnostique from Dr. Gérard Encausse (Papus) and Jean Bricaud. L'Église Catholique Gnostique, the Gnostic Catholic Church, was a schism of l'Église Gnostique, a neo-Albigensian church founded in Paris in 1890 by Jules Doinel.

On April 21, 1912, Reuss issued a charter to Aleister Crowley, appointing him National Grand Master General X° of O.T.O. for Great Britain and Ireland. Crowley's appointment included authority over an English language rite of the lower (Masonic) degrees of O.T.O. which was given the name "Mysteria Mystica Maxima," or M∴M∴M∴

By 1912, Crowley and Reuss had condensed the system of Craft and high-grade Freemasonry into a workable system of 10 numbered degrees which incorporated the teachings and symbolism of a number of additional occult and mystical societies. The system of O.T.O., despite its various influences, remained principally Masonic. Reuss stated that O.T.O. "is not a masonic order, pure and simple, but every member of our Order, man or woman...must proceed through the craft degrees of Freemasonry, also those of high-grade Freemasonry, before they can be illuminated and initiated members of our Order." However, the United Grand Lodge of England, to whom Crowley technically owed Masonic allegiance, objected to the performance of the Craft Degrees in England outside of its jurisdiction, and objected to the admission of women into Freemasonry.

[Continued from Previous Post]

Crowley thus included the following statement in his Manifesto of the M∴M∴M∴: "The O.T.O., although an Academia Masonica, is not a Masonic Body so far as the craft degrees are concerned in the sense in which that expression is usually understood in England; and therefore in no way conflicts with, or infringes the just privileges of, the United Grand Lodge of England."

Crowley remained uncomfortable with the Masonic character of the O.T.O., for a number of additional reasons:

* In contrast with Reuss, Crowley believed that all free-persons could not be initiated as Regular Freemasons; though he thought that they ought to be able to be initiated into O.T.O.
* He was frustrated with the elaborate preparations required to stage Masonic initiations, and with the length of the Masonic rituals and their excessive wordiness. Crowley perceived these factors to be impediments to successful implementation among modern working people.
* He believed that the symbolic content of the Masonic rituals had become garbled nearly to the point of uselessness.
* He wished to use the system of O.T.O. to help spread the teachings of Thelema (especially considering that as the O.T.O. was primarily a Germanic Occult Order, he believed that aligning the O.T.O. with Thelema...basically natural Libertarianism...would keep the Order from siding with the Nazi regime in Germany and embracing Fascism).

For these reasons, Crowley undertook to prepare revised rituals which would convey the significance of the Craft and high degrees concisely and dramatically, which would be suitable for the initiation of all free-persons, regardless of race, gender or creed, which would not infringe on the just privileges of the United Grand Lodge of England, and which would convey the basic teachings of Thelema. Crowley did so around 1915, and adopted the revised rituals for use in his own section of O.T.O., the M∴M∴M∴.

After Reuss, Aleister Crowley served as the Outer Head of the Order from 1922 until his death in December of 1947. Of course, not everyone agreed with Crowley's teachings or Crowley himself. Several groups separated and fragmented from the O.T.O. in 1922.

Although Crowley was instrumental in revising the Degree Structure, Initiation Rituals and writing the Gnostic Mass for the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica (the O.T.O. branch of l'Église Catholique Gnostique), and aligning the Order with the philosophy of Thelema, the Order pre-existed Crowley and continued after him. His importance in the evolution of the O.T.O. cannot be understated, but to say that the Order is about him and only him is a gross misnomer.

Crowley died on December 1, 1947; and in accord with his wishes Karl Germer became O.H.O. of O.T.O., serving from late 1947 until his death in 1962. Germer's last will and testament named his wife Sascha and Frederick Mellinger the executors of his estate in the matter of property held for O.T.O. Some ranking members, including Grady McMurtry, were not notified of Germer's death for several years, causing a long delay before the question of succession to leadership of O.T.O. was properly addressed.

In this interim, several members (and expelled members) laid claim to the Order. Hermann Metzer in Switzerland and Kenneth Grant were two of the most notable.

When Grady McMurtry became aware of the condition into which the Order had fallen after Germer's death, he invoked his documents of emergency authorization from Crowley, and assume the title "Caliph of O.T.O.," as specified in Crowley's letters to McMurtry from the 1940s. Dr. Israel Regardie and Gerald Yorke, the two most prominent surviving personal students of Crowley, acted as witnesses.

This is where the schism between various groups claiming to be the O.T.O. and the Caliphate O.T.O. ultimately come from.

Grady McMurtry was succeeded by Hymenaeus Beta (William Breeze) as head of the O.T.O. on September 21, 1985.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

There is a short video on YouTube where Hubbard refers to "my dear friend, the late Aleister Crowley". However, there is no evidence that Hubbard and Crowley ever actually met, and Crowley's letters that mention Hubbard always speak negatively of him. It is almost certain that Hubbard was simply trying to use Crowley's name to give himself "street cred" with occultists.

Actually ( though I have no "paper" to prove this) I spoke with Julie MacDonald, Charlie Parker's west coast mistress, just before she died - she claimed to have had the both of them Hubbard and Crowley together over to her place in Altadena, CA for a weekend of partying and and such back in the day...I was aquainted with Julie through her stepdaughter who is a close friend -

Originally posted by fraterormus
However, the United Grand Lodge of England, to whom Crowley technically owed Masonic allegiance

Great post, but I would have to disagree with this one statement. Crowley's Masonic Lodge was actually a Parisian Lodge under the jurisdiction of the Grande Loge de France. The UGLE and GLdF did not share fraternal recognition, and Crowley at no time belonged to a Lodge subservient to the UGLE.

Crowley died on December 1, 1947; and in accord with his wishes Karl Germer became O.H.O. of O.T.O.....Grady McMurtry was succeeded by Hymenaeus Beta (William Breeze) as head of the O.T.O. on September 21, 1985.

Let's not open *that* can of worms!

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by realshanti

Actually ( though I have no "paper" to prove this) I spoke with Julie MacDonald, Charlie Parker's west coast mistress, just before she died - she claimed to have had the both of them Hubbard and Crowley together over to her place in Altadena, CA for a weekend of partying and and such back in the day...I was aquainted with Julie through her stepdaughter who is a close friend -

Would it be possible that she meant Parson, or mistook Parsons for Crowley? I can not find a timeframe where Crowley would have been in California at the same time Hubbard would have been as an adult.

By the time Hubbard and Parsons started working together, Crowley was an old man, and not much of a partier.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Masonic Light]

reply to post by Masonic Light


The mistaking of Parsons for Crowley I think is a probable one.

I'm a little foggy on the particulars as that is accessing memory kept in storage for too many decades, but I'm pretty certain Crowley only knew of Hubbard from Hubbard's infamous reputation which preceded him, and from very meager and brief correspondence.

And as for your previous post, I wasn't intending to (re)open a proverbial can of worms. I think the bifurcation of the O.T.O. tree even long before Grady McMurtry, if one looks at just those groups that shot off in 1922 or even earlier in 1906-1912, leaves plenty of room for all to acknowledge that there are many groups that in the least claim O.T.O. lineage and that direct succession is just as much a thorny bramble to navigate in regards to the O.T.O. as it would be to regard the Pedigrees of European Nobility.

I was just wanting to point out where the difference between the "Caliphate" O.T.O. came from in concerns with just O.T.O. Considering the OP's encounter was, most likely, with a "Caliphate" O.T.O. group I figured it would be best to focus on that.

Thank you though for pointing out my error with the London Grand Lodge and the Parisian Grand Lodge connection.

I know that Crowley also possessed questionable Masonic Charters, also from John Yarker, that were tied in to the York Rite Grand Lodge of Mexico, but I think those have always been highly disputed and commonly considered to be essentially invalid. Although the trading of Charters was not an uncommon practice at the beginning of the last century...nor was it uncommon to gain degrees in a particular Order the very same way. I guess some would whitewash the practice in their minds if no money was exchanged for doing such.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the theory that aleister crowley was adolf hitler yet?

Was Hitler really Crowley?

Before Hitler was: Looking for a Doppelganger
The occultist magician Aleister Crowley liked to describe himself as the Antichrist of the Apocalypse (Therion - Beast 666) and once boasted: "Before Hitler was, I am." He often claimed that Adolf Hitler was his guinea pig or magic child, a term used by hypnotists to describe an "inner shadow" or product of the unguarded psyche.

Ritual Magic is used is so many methods such as with the Nazi Occultism of the late past

Aleister Crowley, born Edward Alexander Crowley (12 October 1875 – 1 December 1947)
In November 1947 the United Nations voted for the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab.
A interesting note here on the date of 1947 is that 19.47° is a universal number signifying the meeting of a tetrahedron with a sphere. Notice the star of david on the Flag of Israel

Oh yes here is a past book by Theodor Reuss & Aleister Crowley on the Inner Order versions of O.T.O Rituals and Sex Magick in Paper Back Form. I suppose this would add support to the was barbara bush crowley's daughter theory also via the Prescott Bush Scandal of How Bush's Grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Occultech]

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Occultech]

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Occultech]

reply to post by Occultech


I found this link (bottom of post), it was whilst i was researching a bit for one of my threads:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

here is the link, if you have time to read through it (quite lengthy), it goes into depth about voodoo, and both crowley and hitler are mentioned in it, i read you post and other than this link and your post, i have personally never seen both names mentioned together. I don't know anything about the site i got the link from, i just stumbled on it in my research, intriguing all the same:

www.kanaanministries.org...

[edit on 15-4-2009 by MCoG1980]

I tried to make a edit on my last post to although that didn't work out. So here it goes again

interesting note here on the date of 1947 is that 19.47° is a universal number signifying the meeting of a tetrahedron with a sphere. Notice the star of david on the Flag of Israel

Now the 19.47° Link should work properly to show reference to the meaning of the double star tetrahedra's within a sphere & the date of 1947/19.47 with in the reference of the last post

There is so much good OTO information that I have never seen anywhere else in Peter Koenig's online pile, here is one link but keep on clicking through all the info tree...IT RULES OK, yup-yup...
[user.cyberlink.ch...]
I really do think this is the best info on the subject(s) anywhere...

I think Crowley was one of the biggest blights on the face of our world.

If I could choose 3 people to have never existed, it would be him, helena blavatsky, and adolf hitler

Originally posted by Occultech
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the theory that aleister crowley was adolf hitler yet?

How is that supposed to be a "theory"?

The real theory that concerns Crowley and WWII was that he served a British agent whose mission was destroy Hitler and the Third Reich:

www.amazon.com...

The occultist magician Aleister Crowley liked to describe himself as the Antichrist of the Apocalypse (Therion - Beast 666) and once boasted: "Before Hitler was, I am." He often claimed that Adolf Hitler was his guinea pig or magic child

Where did he say this?

Originally posted by mostlyspoons
I think Crowley was one of the biggest blights on the face of our world.

I think he was one of the greatest minds of the 20th century, and I would personally have loved to have had a conversation with him.

in 2002, Crowley was included in the list of the "100 Greatest Britons" due to his contributions to philosophy.

The World of Thelema is full of history & takes a bit of time to research to understand. As far as Aleister Crowley goes you ether Hate or Love the man it's as easy as that

This is a part of the Thelemic Gnostic Mass - Behind the Veil: The Gnostic Mass revealed

And this is a Magick - Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram


"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" (AL I:40) and
"Love is the law, love under will" (AL I:57)
Quote from The Book of Law

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by realshanti

Actually ( though I have no "paper" to prove this) I spoke with Julie MacDonald, Charlie Parker's west coast mistress, just before she died - she claimed to have had the both of them Hubbard and Crowley together over to her place in Altadena, CA for a weekend of partying and and such back in the day...I was aquainted with Julie through her stepdaughter who is a close friend -

Would it be possible that she meant Parson, or mistook Parsons for Crowley? I can not find a timeframe where Crowley would have been in California at the same time Hubbard would have been as an adult.

By the time Hubbard and Parsons started working together, Crowley was an old man, and not much of a partier.

[edit on 15-4-2009 by Masonic Light]

anything is possible - she was very ill with cancer and she may have simply confused the time and place- Crowley is hard to mistake for anyone else I would think though I could be wrong....

Originally posted by Occultech
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the theory that aleister crowley was adolf hitler yet?

Yeah, Hitler was not Crowley, Ted Kennedy is not Bill Clinton, Barbra Streisand is not Meryl Streep.
I wish I could get paid by the word to write a long article listing people who are not each other...I could just get food delivered and never leave the house for the rest of my life...

Originally posted by realshanti
Crowley is hard to mistake for anyone else I would think though I could be wrong....

True. But judging from Crowley's letters, it does not appear that he had met Hubbard. When Crowley was 70 years old, and in poor health living in England, Parsons first wrote him about meeting Hubbard, and described him.

Hubbard wrote a couple of letters to Crowley too, soon after. Crowley responded briefly and friendly, but seemed not to trust Hubbard.

Soon after this, Crowley wrote a letter to Germer about Parsons and Hubbard trying to create a "moonchild", ending the paragraph with "I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these louts".

In a later letter written soon before his death, Crowley said that he felt sorry for Parsons because he (Parsons) had come under the inluence of a "con man" (Hubbard).

From what I can tell, Crowley had not been in California since the time Hubbard was about 11 or 12 years old.

I have learned a lot from the posts in this thread and would like to thank the original poster and all those that had input into this thread.