Study claims 'highly engineered explosive' found in WTC rubbl

reply to post by GoldenFleece


You wrote "And if you seriously believe that Operation Northwoods was some kind of fantasy war exercise that was never intended to harm any Americans, well you couldn't be more mistaken. When there's a military objective that's considered important enough and it has the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, you'd better not get in their way. If you do, you'll quickly meet a disturbed lone gunman who starts firing at you from a book depository.

As a journalist, I'd think you'd have a little more admiration and respect for someone like Steven Jones, who was probably a comfortably conservative Mormon BYU physics professor approaching tenure before he gave it all up for little more than a sense of conscience and patriotism. If you think someone like this (or members of any of the numerous professional 9/11 truth groups would suddenly start having delusional thoughts about elements of their own government being involved in 9/11, then I'm afraid Debunking911.com is making you delusional."

For the record, Northwoods was never executed. It was a contingency plan that was rejected. It had no Americans being harmed and was not approved for execution. To relate it to the Kennedy assassination is fantasy on your part.

Steven Jones was and is all about Steven Jones. He has no admiration and respect in the scientific community and he is not likely to get any soon. To admire and resect a selfish egomaniac is something you may wish to do but then again you are gullible enough to believe his so-called "research." Look him up and discover how he tried to steal Pons and Fleischmann's invention. Watch as he, who never had an original idea in his life, destroyed their invention through his desire to satisfy his ego. He didn't give up his career for patriotism; he was canned for incompetence and scientific misconduct. His own University wants nothing to do with him because he is generally wrong whenever he opens his mouth. He is still trying to grab the limelight with his poorly executed experiments designed to reach foregone conclusions and can only play to an audience with little technical training and reasoning skills. This is why he is completely ignored by the scientific community and not because he was "framed," "cheated," "misunderstood," "victimized" or anything else. The delusional websites usually have "for truth" in their titles, much like "used car dealers for truth" or "snakeoil salesmen for truth" advertise their integrity.

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by GoldenFleece

For the record, Northwoods was never executed. It was a contingency plan that was rejected. It had no Americans being harmed and was not approved for execution.

Whenever you post one of your trademark "for the record" blanket denials, I know I'm close. And what do you know, James Bamford, the former CIA officer and investigative reporter who was tipped off to the Operation Northwoods documents, is right there with me:

It has long been suspected that the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident -- the spark that led to America's long war in Vietnam -- was largely staged or provoked by U.S. officials in order to build up congressional and public support for American involvement. Over the years, serious questions have been raised about the alleged attack by North Vietnamese patrol boats on two American destroyers in the Gulf. But defenders of the Pentagon have always denied such charges, arguing that senior officials would never engage in such deceit.

Now, however, in light of the Operation Northwoods documents, it at deceiving the public and trumping up wars for Americans to fight and die in was standard, approved policy at the highest levels of the Pentagon. In fact, the Gulf of Tonkin seems right out of the Operation Northwoods playbook: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba . . . casualty lists in U.S. newspapers cause a helpful wave of indignation." One need only replace "Guantanamo Bay" with "Tonkin Gulf," and "Cuba" with "North Vietnam" and the Gulf of Tonkin incident may or may not have been stage-managed, but the senior Pentagon leadership at the time was clearly capable of such deceit.

Bamford's "Puzzle Palace" was coincidentally released in 2001. It would appear the Pentagon playbook was about to be used again. As for Gulf of Tonkin, when declassified NSA archives were released with LBJ chuckling, "those Navy boys were shooting at a bunch of flying fish!", that pretty much put an end to any debate over whether Gulf of Tonkin was staged.

Interesting side note: the U.S. Naval officer in command of the ships in the Gulf Of Tonkin that day was none other than the father of 1960's rock legend Jim Morrisson, aka The Lizard King.

To relate it to the Kennedy assassination is fantasy on your part.

Once again, it appears that my fantasies are in good company:

At 2:30 on the afternoon of Tuesday, March 13, 1962, Lemnitzer went over last-minute details of Operation Northwoods with his covert action chief, Brigadier General William H. Craig, and signed the document. He then went to a "special meeting" in McNamara's office. An hour later he met with Kennedy's military representative, General Maxwell Taylor. What happened during those meetings is unknown. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer that there was virtually no possibility that the U.S. would ever use overt military force in Cuba.

Undeterred, Lemnitzer and the Chiefs persisted, virtually to the point of demanding that they be given authority to invade and take over Cuba. About a month after submitting Operation Northwoods, they met the "tank," as the JCS conference room was called, and agreed on the wording of a tough memorandum to McNamara. "The Joint Chiefs of Staff believe that the Cuban problem must be solved in the near future," they wrote. "Further, they see no prospect of early success in overthrowing the present communist regime either as a result of internal uprising or external political, economic or psychological pressures. Accordingly they believe that military intervention by the United States will be required to overthrow the present communist regime."

www.whale.to...

Original Operation Northwoods documents (so you won't get fooled again:) www.gwu.edu...

Steven Jones was and is all about Steven Jones. He has no admiration and respect in the scientific community and he is not likely to get any soon.

OK. Thanks for playing (and verifying.) Dismissed.

Originally posted by Fremd
reply to post by Griff

 

yup. camera's are also illegal in movie theaters and other public places as well.

Doesn't stop people from leaking them into the public eye.

I wasn't aware of armed guards at movie theaters specifically there to confiscate cameras?

It's just too funny and curious how people can make such bold statements without EVER having been there, and not a single shred of proof.

Right back at ya.

Some guy shows up in a online blog and says he saw a molten river.
Wow. Woopty do, let's type and print the conspiracy now.

Yeah, it was just "some guy on the internet".

Or were they first responders who were there? And on video tape with their testimony.

Without so much as a picture for evidence, given all the technology we have in cell phone camera's these days (and all the pictures OF the 9/11 site...hmm....i thought camera's were illegal??....what about all the media coverage and pictures like this?)

Yes, because cell phones had cameras back in 2001.

[edit on 4/11/2009 by Griff]

Enough about Northwoods and the faked moon landings blah, blah, blah. The super-thermite paper is seriously flawed. Stephen Jones is too biased to even write a paper like this. He already firmly believes and has staked his life and reputation on thermite being used to bring down the WTC. Jones says he found the dust in a woman`s apartment in NYC, whose husband is a metal artist. The possibility of contamination of the dust cannot be ruled out. How do we even know the dust is from the WTC! Jones is not the first author so the paper will be read as Harrit et al, instead of Jones et al. I wonder why? The red chips in all likelyhood are paint chips not super-duper cosmic nanothermite bots. I am more likely to believe Jones story of Jesus having tea with the Mayans, than his ridiculous super-thermite paper. He should stick to Mormonology, it is far more believable.

911guide.googlepages.com...

[edit on 11-4-2009 by the_eighth_tower]

reply to post by GoldenFleece


Goldie,
So you have evidence that JFK was assassinated because he wouldn't agree to Northwoods? It is, of course, actual evidence and not heresay or speculation on your part. Certainly it deserves its own thread.
I await your exposition.

In the meantime, Jones has stumbled again with yet another poorly written paper. He should consider Hollywood to satisfy his desire to be important, as he will not make it with anything technical. Perhaps you can explain why we should admire and respect a charlatan.

reply to post by pteridine


Yes, you are correct. Jones' theory is supposition at this point. But, at least he is trying to determine the cause of his supposition unlike the EPA who just said so.

Originally posted by DohBama
So they found aluminum and rust in the dust of rubble that was formerly modern skyscrapers?

Aluminum and iron oxide is indeed used in thermite, but is also used to build architecture. There was plenty of aluminum and iron that composed those buildings. It's what they're made of.

This is a real stretch.

The real stretch is the fact you are trying to create a cake by throwing flour and sugar together and claiming it's a cake.

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by DohBama
So they found aluminum and rust in the dust of rubble that was formerly modern skyscrapers?

Aluminum and iron oxide is indeed used in thermite, but is also used to build architecture. There was plenty of aluminum and iron that composed those buildings. It's what they're made of.

This is a real stretch.

The real stretch is the fact you are trying to create a cake by throwing flour and sugar together and claiming it's a cake.

Griff,
The above cake quote is exactly what Jones is doing.

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by GoldenFleece

 

Goldie,
So you have evidence that JFK was assassinated because he wouldn't agree to Northwoods? It is, of course, actual evidence and not heresay or speculation on your part.

How much "evidence" do you need? Even when there's irrefutable and undeniable proof of Operation Northwoods, you still deny it! So how much credibility does that give you?

How about E. Howard Hunt's deathbed confession? You're even mentioned at the end:

The last confession of E. Howard Hunt: US government/CIA team murdered JFK

The April 5, 2007 issue of Rolling Stone features the deathbed confession of CIA operative and key Bay of Pigs/Watergate/Nixon administration figure E. Howard Hunt, The Last Confession of E. Howard Hunt by Erik Hedegaard. This piece is significant not only for its exploration of Hunt, but for breakthrough information that appears to thoroughly corroborate the work of key John F. Kennedy assassination researchers and historians.

Who killed JFK?

According to Hunt’s confession, which was taken by his son, St. John (“Saint”) Hunt, over the course of many personal and carefully planned father-son meetings, the following individuals were among the key participants:

Lyndon B. Johnson: LBJ, whose own career was assisted by JFK nemesis J. Edgar Hoover (FBI), gave the orders to a CIA-led hit team, and helped guide the Warren Commission/lone gunman cover-up.

Cord Meyer: CIA agent, architect of the Operation Mockingbird disinformation apparatus, and husband of Mary Meyer (who had an affair with JFK).

David Atlee Philips: CIA and Bay of Pigs veteran. Recruited William Harvey (CIA) and Cuban exile militant Antonio Veciana.

William Harvey: CIA and Bay of Pigs veteran. Connected to Mafia figures Santos Trafficante and Sam Giancana.

Antonio Veciana: Cuban exile, founder of CIA-backed Alpha 66.

Frank Sturgis: CIA operative, mercenary, Bay of Pigs veteran, and later Watergate figure.

David Morales: CIA hit man, Bay of Pigs veteran. Morales was also a figure involved with the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy.

Lucien Sarti: Corsican assassin and drug trafficker, possible “French gunman,” Grassy Knoll (second) shooter.

Would Hunt continue to tell lies on his deathbed? Perhaps. Would Hunt tell a final tall story or two, to protect himself, or perhaps deal one final slap in the face to the US government (which made him a fall guy for Watergate)? Yes. Would Hunt hide the involvement of certain individuals to whom he remained loyal, including people who are still alive? Certainly. Anything from an operative like Hunt can only be accepted with caution and healthy skepticism.

Nevertheless, Hunt’s scenario has the ring of truth.

Each of the named names are well-known CIA and CIA-linked players exposed by many researchers and historians who have detailed the enduring connection from the Bay of Pigs and the Dallas hit to Watergate and Iran-Contra.

The Hunt confession vindicates generations of historians, researchers and whistleblowers who have given their lives and careers to expose the truth about Dealey Plaza. While there are too many to name, they include, but are not limited to (and in no particular order): Jim Garrison, Mark Lane, Fletcher Prouty, Josiah Thompson, Carl Oglesby, Peter Dale Scott, Anthony Summers, Robert Groden, Victor Marchetti, David Lifton, Harrison Livingstone, Michael Canfield, A.J. Weberman, Sylvia Meagher, William Turner, Jim Marrs, Pete Brewton, John Newman, Philip Melanson, Hal Verb, Mae Brussell, Harold Weisberg, Oliver Stone, Mike Ruppert and Dan Hopsicker, Jim diEugenio and Linda Pease.

Meanwhile, the criminal deceptions of the US government and its corporate media, the Warren Commission, and the dirty work of cover-up specialists such as Gerald Posner and Mark Fuhrman, and the legions of JFK assassination revisionist/theorists, deserve a final rebuke, and eternal scorn.

Imagine, Bay of Pigs/CIA operative E. Howard Hunt makes a deathbed confession to his son, even identifying co-conspirators who participated in the assassination of JFK, and the U.S. corporate media says NOTHING! Not one word. Crickets. Just like the media's response to overwhelming evidence that 9/11 was an inside job. F'ing traitors.

Fortunately, there were more dedicated researchers/whistleblowers than coverup specialists.

Steven Jones is a leading example of the former while "pteridine" can take his place with the disgraced Gerald Posners and Mark Fuhrmans of the latter.


[edit on 11-4-2009 by GoldenFleece]

How many conspiracy theories can one fit on a single thread. The constant avoidance of the subject matter is frustrating. Fleece you have been warned to keep on topic, yet we are covering everything from Northwoods to JFK. Heh, you forgot Elvis. I can hardly wait for Jones next paper; The spectral and DNA analysis of unicorn horn fragments found in sasquatch dung. Jesus is alive and living in Salt Lake City.

debunking911.com...

[edit on 11-4-2009 by the_eighth_tower]

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
Steven Jones is a leading example of the former while "pteridine" can take his place with the disgraced Gerald Posners and Mark Fuhrmans of the latter.

Excuse me, make that "pteridine" and "the_eighth_tower" can take their place with the disgraced Gerald Posners and Mark Fuhrmans of the latter.

As much as they'd like people to believe that Operation Northwoods, JFK and 9/11 are unrelated and equivalent to Elvis and sasquatch, they're not.

Just the same old criminal cabal working their latest murderous deception.

Will 9/11 take as long to expose as Pearl Harbor, JFK and Gulf of Tonkin? Stay tuned...

reply to post by the_eighth_tower

How many conspiracy theories can one fit on a single thread.

How many straw man arguments can you cram into a page?

-First you say Thermite is used for welding on high-rise structures.
-Then you retract that to railroads (none of which WTC had, in case you didn't notice).
-Then you say Thermate doesn't exist...
-Then you claim iron doesn't oxidise (did you skip 10th grade science?), and that it was simply rust found at Ground Zero.
-Then you ignore the testimony of firefighters who were THERE.
-Then you accept Thermate does exist but was used for welding steel. (Which it would melt right through and compromise structurally.)
-Then you claim "someone should have spoken up" by now, laughably ignoring the amount of times your government has kept quiet about highly unethical operations.
-Then you claim the pictures taken at WTC are bogus.
-Then you claim there should have been more pictures taken, by super ninja-like free press agents who could evade the CIA, FBI, Army and Police locking that area down.


Now you're telling us to stop flip-flopping and get back on topic? That's rich.

You guys are no better than Stephen Jones, despite what you've convinced yourselves of.

[edit on 11/4/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Originally posted by the_eighth_tower
The red chips in all likelyhood are paint chips not super-duper cosmic nanothermite bots.

Yeah, in all likelyhood [sic]. Perhaps it's time to re-post the most starred post in this thread to help cut through all the lies and obfuscation:

Originally posted by billybob
nobody on this thread read the paper.

they are NOT paint chips, and they are NOT random bits of iron, iron oxide and aluminum.

the distribution of the five (four with chain of custody) was from a WIDE radius, yet the distribution was fairly consistent.

they tested paint chips along side these super-thermite chips which IGNITE at 430˚C (quite low). the paint ships dissolve in paint thinner, the thermite chips don't. the paint melts into ash when ignited, whereas the thermite chips had a highly energetic spark, followed by an orange stream.

here is a video of the ignition experiment.

chip ignition

all the usual suspects are here 'debunking' something they haven't even read. what is this, the dark ages?

people need to read the paper before they spout their IGNORANCE as KNOWLEDGE.

Calling it ignorance is being charitable.

With all the debunking this excellent thread has received from all the usual suspects, if it gets just 8 more flags, it'll make it to the ATS 90 Day 'Top Topics' column. I hope that happens.


[edit on 11-4-2009 by GoldenFleece]

reply to post by The Godfather of Conspira


Excuse me, but when did I claim any of the above. Please refer to post.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece

Originally posted by the_eighth_tower
The red chips in all likelyhood are paint chips not super-duper cosmic nanothermite bots.

Yeah, in all likelyhood [sic]. Perhaps it's time to re-post the most starred post in this thread to help cut through all the lies and obfuscation:

Originally posted by billybob
nobody on this thread read the paper.

they are NOT paint chips, and they are NOT random bits of iron, iron oxide and aluminum.

the distribution of the five (four with chain of custody) was from a WIDE radius, yet the distribution was fairly consistent.

they tested paint chips along side these super-thermite chips which IGNITE at 430˚C (quite low). the paint ships dissolve in paint thinner, the thermite chips don't. the paint melts into ash when ignited, whereas the thermite chips had a highly energetic spark, followed by an orange stream.

here is a video of the ignition experiment.

chip ignition

all the usual suspects are here 'debunking' something they haven't even read. what is this, the dark ages?

people need to read the paper before they spout their IGNORANCE as KNOWLEDGE.

Calling it ignorance is being charitable.

With all the debunking this excellent thread has received from all the usual suspects, if it gets just 8 more flags, it'll make it to the ATS 90 Day 'Top Topics' column. I hope that happens.


[edit on 11-4-2009 by GoldenFleece]

It does not matter about the chemical composition of said chips. The proper chain of custody was not observed with these specimens. They could have come from anywhere. Any scientific study would be flawed if this happens.

www.911myths.com...

reply to post by GoldenFleece


Were you there for the deathbed confession? Any corraborating evidence? Videotapes? Any other conspirator confessios?

[edit on 4/11/2009 by pteridine]

"We get a lot of calls from people who have heard these theories," NIST spokesman Michael Newman told Newsday. "But we conducted what was probably the most complex investigation of a building collapse in history."

(From OP source)

Yes, NIST, a very 'controlled' and 'restricted' investigation of some rubble, while the rest was quickly disposed of.

"We based our conclusion on the talents of the world's best engineers and scientists, state of the art computer models and 236 pieces of steel recovered from the site," reads the NIST FAQ.

Some steel that was *recovered* from the site, rather than all the steel at the site.

This latest report, Jones told Visibility 9/11, "explodes the official story that 'no evidence' exists for explosive/pyrotechnic materials in the WTC buildings. The red/gray chips are the 'loaded gun' of 9-11."

Damn strait... Unless you count Dr Steven E. Jones' fairly conclusive work on Thermate, then yes there hasn't been any evidence for "explosive/pyrotechnic materials in the WTC buildings".

The evidence doesn't lie. The politically motivated investigations do.

[edit on 11-4-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by GoldenFleece

You said "Fortunately, there were more dedicated researchers/ whistleblowers than coverup specialists.

Steven Jones is a leading example of the former while "pteridine" can take his place with the disgraced Gerald Posners and Mark Fuhrmans of the latter. "

I have posted the many faults in his experimental work. He is playing all the non-technical folk for suckers. The fact that you admire Stevie says you have been duped, also, so I am not surprised that you include me as a coverup specialist.

reply to post by pteridine


I thought you were working for the C.I.A. That means there are only 10 million of us being employed in this conspiracy.

reply to post by the_eighth_tower


Far more than ten million. I have explained the Jones' errors many times but those who have made up their closed minds can only parrot "911truth" sites.