Enlightenment Talk

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Do you think that there is anyone to help?

In a practical day-to-day sense? Yes. In an absolute sense? No.

In other words, does your understanding of enlightenment include Oneness, or non-duality? Or is it undivided and non-dual?

Yes and No...if you know what I mean.

And when you say that the Ego is "non-existent," I agree with that, if you mean that there is no "you" that is separate from the One, (for lack of a better word) and that the idea of a separate "self" the idea of "me" or "I" is just an idea, practical for talking and getting around, but ultimately an arbitrary and imaginary division. Is that how you mean it?

Yes, something like that. I dont use the word "Ego" anymore...neither in a Freudian sense, nor in a buddhist/hindu sense as something that needs to be "overcome". Why? When in deep Meditation I cant really find any "Ego". I can find a viewpoint all-awareness temporarily assumes in order to properly focus on this life-experience. And I guess if enough identity and importance is accumulated around this viewpoint it can be termed "Ego". But ultimately its only a concept.

The same with concepts such as "Subconscious", "Higher Self", etc.etc. These labels seem to be create separations where none are really necessary.

Whether there really is an Ego or not...the idea of having to fight or "overcome" some part of the whole or some part of all-that-is is rendered nonsensical in the awareness of everything being ONE. In practical down-to-earth terms it can also be quite a relief not to be in battle against some imaginary "Ego".

Interesting question you pose though.

[edit on 28-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Yes, something like that. I dont use the word "Ego" anymore...neither in a Freudian sense, nor in a buddhist/hindu sense as something that needs to be "overcome".

I dont advocate overcoming it either. But I do use the word Ego. If only to give an name to the "arbitrary idea of individuality" and separate it out from "that which is indivisible in truth."

Language is by nature dualistic. Words are separate to make then useful to the mind, which is also by nature dualistic.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The same with concepts such as "Subconscious", "Higher Self", etc.etc. These labels seem to be create separations where none are really necessary.

Interesting that you retain the idea of separate people as a practical, functional tool,

Originally posted by Skyfloating

In a practical day-to-day sense? Yes. In an absolute sense? No.

but you reject the tool of descriptive language. What is the reasoning behind keeping the one and rejecting the other? I am curious, I had not considered dropping either as functional things, myself. Only maintaining awareness of my own lying.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Whether there really is an Ego or not...the idea of having to fight or "overcome" some part of the whole or some part of all-that-is is rendered nonsensical in the awareness of everything being ONE.

I do understand your point here, and agree absolutely. I have long held that view myself. I am just interested as to why that same concept is not extended further? Why drop division within the make pretend individual, but not drop the pretense outside the make pretend individual? Why fight, (or just as mistakenly) help, "others" that dont exist?

I understand the value of talking to oneself. I do it both within the make pretend individual and without that make pretend individual. Hell, sometimes I even argue with myself just for the hell of it. Its like those old folk sayings that say its ok to talk to yourself, its when you answer back that it becomes a problem.

I personally dont think its the talking, or the answering, or even the arguing that makes one insane. What makes one delusional is not recognizing in any of the above circumstances the fact that you are only talking, answering or fighting with yourself.

Edit to change "fight" to "argue" in two places to draw a distinction between hitting one self and arguing with oneself. I think if you are engaged in a physical battle with yourself that kind of speaks volumes. Lol.

[edit on 28-3-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
I don't find joy in everything, although I guess one should see the joy of spiritual growth regardless of the circumstances,

I find it hard to be happy and in a state of bliss when people I love suffer.

Twice in my life i found myself in total bliss both times I was snapped out of it by a tragic event.

Now I am a little hesitant.

I am sure the lesson was to keep in this state, even when faced with the impermanence of life.

The way it was explained to me is to empathize with others, not to sympathize.

This person described sympathy as taking on another persons energetic state, which doesn't really help anyone.

Empathy is accepting and transcending another persons energetic state, allowing your light to shine their way. It doesn't always have a positive effect on them. If they don't accept peace, it's not coming their way. Nothing to be done, but remain patient and open.

The best we can do when anyone including ourself encounters a potentially traumatic situation is to accept it as is, and remain calm.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Well, since your curious: Whether or not the "I" exists depends on context.

When someone is asking for help and I know how to help its impractical to say "you dont exist".

When someone says "I have to kill the Ego" (thus engaging in a long and pointless fight) its practical to say "The Ego does not exist".

Let me put it differently:

When Im watching a movie a part of me is aware that the movie is an illusion. But its impractical for the enjoyment of the movie to be sitting there saying "Its an illusion" all the time. For the purpose of entertainment and emotional experience, the movie is not an illusion while I am watching it. I dont focus on the movie being nothing more than little dots projected onto a white screen but as "real".

Originally posted by Skyfloating

When someone is asking for help and I know how to help its impractical to say "you dont exist".

Well, yes, and that would be a lie anyway. After all, "you" dont exist either. Its just One thing, talking to itself. (although the words "one" "thing" and "itself" are equally flawed being dualistic too) And if "you" knew how to help, the "other" would not be confused, really, seeing as they are in fact the same "thing."

When looking in a mirror, is it ever the right thing to do to reach out and try to take the spec out of the eye of the reflection? Or is the proper technique to find the spec in our own eye, thus removing it in both places?

As always, I appreciate hearing your views.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

When looking in a mirror, is it ever the right thing to do to reach out and try to take the spec out of the eye of the reflection? Or is the proper technique to find the spec in our own eye, thus removing it in both places?

I do believe that finding the spec in ones own eye is preferable to looking for it in others eyes. And I also think this would be extremely helpful to the world in many different levels and in many different contexts.

When referring to "practical" I was talking more of stuff like "mr. x has expertise in x so he can help mr. y in x".

The way I am seeing it now, is that oneness is a goal in which we strive to experience in a physical world where that wasn't how it was designed in the past. We are in an interim stage of "enlightenment". The duality was also designed to be overcome in that we would feel separated for the experience it would give us, and then to eventually realize we are connected, while still having a physical experience.

Duality is only uncomfortable when it is judged as good or bad, otherwise it is just an opportunity for different kinds of experiences. When something isn't seen as good or bad it becomes less interesting. There is less desire to experience it. Or the experience is more joyful because it isn't loaded with heaviness and fear.

To me it is a sense of mastery over oneself, with the self. To realize we are one with all, and yet able to be individualistic without guilt or judgment. That is bliss and joy and freedom. The mundane is our playground, as is nature. But we must be responsible for the decisions we make. Self responsibility comes with self mastery. But it also requires being truthful with the self, and honoring the desires of the self.

When you realize you aren't going to be judged for what you experience, that good and bad don't exist in the ultimate reality, it does give you the feeling of "what now?"
It opens a door, removes a veil, the world becomes more vast and interesting again. And people seem more fun to be around.
Now we can do our mundane experiences knowing that they are what they are and nothing more. Then we have true freedom to experience what we choose here.

In reply to Mr Green and also Seagrass, to support your post seagrass,

Oneness is the goal I feel for real and total Enlightenment, which requires not just Compassion in a relative way, but as described in Tibetan Texts and teachings "Absolute" Bodhichitta, or when all Past present, ego this that break down, and true emptiness of all seperation is realised.

Below is a clip from a most amazing documentary, showing rare footage of two such like either almost, or fully enlightened Beings from Tibet meeting, discussing and describing this.

Enjoy



Ps at the end of the clip the energy channels the Yogi is showing to his students can be found in more detail on the Media section of ATS in my profile or the Enlightenment group in a video format created recently by a western researcher.

Kind Regards,

Elf.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf

Below is a clip from a most amazing documentary, showing rare footage of two such like either almost, or fully enlightened Beings from Tibet meeting, discussing and describing this.

Thank you Elf I really enjoyed that video, you can sense the enlightenment in their eyes its amazing. Unfortunatly I do not have 2 hours a day to meditate but every little helps.

Originally posted by Mr Green
Thank you Elf I really enjoyed that video, you can sense the enlightenment in their eyes its amazing. Unfortunatly I do not have 2 hours a day to meditate but every little helps.

How long do you spend on ATS or watching TV ?

1 hour is quite a bit, and we are all dead a long time as well, life is short. Bit late to start on our death beds or when old and confused or in pain so cant settle down for the initial bits?

Not having, and choices we make are very very different things indeed

I am always making excuses, so I am logging of now to do some

I am very glad you liked the Docu anyhow.

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by MischeviousElf

How long do you spend on ATS or watching TV ?

TV very very little, it doesnt interest me unless there is a programme I really want to watch. I used to LOVE Inspector Morse but of course this has now finished.

ATS...yes more time but you must understand I can be logged on here and be interupted all the time and go attend to stuff as Im in that frame of mind. I can go see what the kids want, or answer the door, do paper work, load the washer or cook dinner as Im in that state of awarness. Its no hassel for me to walk away from ATS as in the now you react to what is given to you in that particular point in time. So I could be logged on to ATS for an hour but actually be taken away many times and able to react to these life situations.

Meditation however for an hour would not be possible in this situation...do you see.



Tonight I was lucky, something was cancelled in my childrens very hectic social lives LOL so I was able to spend an hour meditating, with very good results actually, but this type of free hour is rare. So I tend to meditate for maybe 20 mins when I KNOW I will not be disturbed. Two hours every day for a working parent is just not possible.

I did read recently that if a person takes three long deep breaths and becomes totally aware of their now in those breaths its just as beneficial as hours of meditation, is this true do you think?

Mr Green, I found through researching, that the dream state is much more effective in communicating with the higher self, than meditation. We have been doing it that way much longer and more naturally all this time. Meditation requires discipline that is unnecessary if one can use dream time more efficiently. If you are stressed for time, I would recommend talking to yourself about your dream time. You could develop a better communication and enlightenment process through it. I am trying this as well.

Thank you Elf, I have watched a few of your media additions, and your attention is always appreciated.
Love to you.

Originally posted by Mr Green
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

I did read recently that if a person takes three long deep breaths and becomes totally aware of their now in those breaths its just as beneficial as hours of meditation, is this true do you think?

Back Lol.

There was an long time ago an old very learned Lama/Teacher in Tibet.

He had two students who wanted to learn the same type of Yoga, and also get the same results and experience/realisation from one type of Mantra Meditation.

They both had to write/chant and do 1 Hundred Thousand mantra's with the visualisations as described in the teaching's to realise this.

One student went of immediately to a Retreat Cave, and hurriedly started his practise, for three years he was every minute nearly writing and chanting, going through the outward facade of practise, but was mainly thinking all the time, about how quickly he could do it, how many he had done, how long it would take etc whilst doing it.

The other went about his normal life for two years still practising but not that teaching, being in the now, helping others etc.

He then went and chanted, wrote the mantra's almost non stop, but with total focus and dedication and faith. He never completed the alloted amount. However during the practise he became so absorbed in the Mantra and meditation that at one time he saw and experienced all Atoms in the universe as being the Buddha Amitaba, an manifestation of him, in total clarity.

When the students then both returned to the Teacher, he smiled braodly at them both, and said

Well done, you have both completed the teaching and have realised the teaching, the obscuration this teaching/practise that you did, to allow to to move onto the next stage has been removed in both of you

So theres some truth in what you say, however if you do 1-2 hours of deep meditation it is of course better than 10 seconds of meditation that is of the same calibre.

It is also written that if you make a cup of tea perfectly (this is the basis of the Japanese tea ceremony), or complete a Prostration perfectly or such like you can become enlightened in that one act. Though for many as in the above it will probably take 100,000 or more tries to do it right first

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by seagrass


Liking your post a lot because it dissolves the misconception (found in many enlightenment-type-paradigms) that duality is somehow "bad" or need be "overcome"...along with other agressive beliefs such as "kill the ego", "the mind is useless" and other "spiritual" BS often found in eastern-concepts (many of which have been imported to the west).

reply to post by MischeviousElf


For discussion purpose a challenge: You say "Oneness is the goal".

I ask: How can something that already exists and always will, something that has never ever left...be a "goal"?

In my understanding thats like a wave of the ocean saying "the ocean is the goal"...although it is already naturally the ocean.

reply to post by Mr Green


Of course its easier to Meditate with eyes closed and in silence. But eventually Meditation can happen anywhere and with everything. Even while sitting online. (imo)

Edit: Just read what MElf said on it...good point.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Mr Green

 

Of course its easier to Meditate with eyes closed and in silence. But eventually Meditation can happen anywhere and with everything. Even while sitting online. (imo)

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Skyfloating]

meditate on line, yes maybe i can see how this would be done but Im not at that point yet..well maybe I am, I feel points of stillness many times in a day and Im just going about my day so maybe its not so far away.

reply to post by Mr Green


Just an example: Say someone here attacks you in a way that stirs up some deep-seated crap within you...

...would you know how that might be an opportunity for transcending it in a meditative way...?

reply to post by Skyfloating


Well you showed the paradox in my statement totally.

I worded it wrongly as I am not in that state all the time lol.

Realisation of oneness is the goal, experience of it, realising and being that ocean and not the wave, for though the wave may appear to move and act independently from the ocean, it is always connected, supported by and part of it to.

As I Know you Know but many maybe don't that is the fundamental point of Buddhism, we are all Buddhas, enlightened already, but don't see it, accept it or experience it, as we see ourselves as seperate Waves as such.

To add to Seagrass as well, there is a Yoga of Naropa, one of his six that can lead in tradition to full enlightenment in this lifetime.
One of these Yoga's is Known as "Dream Yoga" so you are right in many ways, however it takes some meditative time out of sleep for a while to really develop, but as you point out Dreams are important, as they come from our subconscious, and as Sky rightly explains to Mr Green it is where our emotions and garbage come up from, the Beliefs, and blocks to see that inate Buddhaood or enlightened state of Mind.

Transforming those emotions, ultimately as Sky points out just Tantra to Mr Green. Being mindful and observing the feeling and thoughts stimuli prompt in us, not becoming the emotion and habitually responding as usual, but using that energy and emotion for change, using the force of Anger at a slighted Ego to develop Compassion is all that the Tantric path is about.

I know me and Sky differ on that one point in all this the Ego dissolution, but seem to agree in many other things.

Well said sky and thank you for pointing out my ignorance above. To add as well when the wave realises it is the Sea and looses the ego of the Wave Totally, it becomes very confident in certain matters to. I think this is misunderstood by many, dissolution of this little, fragile, stupid emotionally reacting child within all of us leads to ultimately the confidence of the Universe, but with no room for Ego anger, hate, ignorance and habit's, much love though as all is us, you, me so when the neurotic scared, habitual child is gone , much self love to the universe arises.

Kind Regards

Elf

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by seagrass

 

Liking your post a lot because it dissolves the misconception (found in many enlightenment-type-paradigms) that duality is somehow "bad" or need be "overcome"...along with other agressive beliefs such as "kill the ego", "the mind is useless" and other "spiritual" BS often found in eastern-concepts (many of which have been imported to the west).

I am learning that there is no good or bad, but belief systems. There is no judgment but those that we acquire through those belief systems. Take any thing and roll it around in your brain as neither good or bad. No duality, and in that process you realize that no one is good or bad either. It is all experience that is chosen. No guilt, nothing to fear, nothing to regret, nothing to hate. It is hard to do, when others bombard us with belief systems. That is what needs to be "overcome". The "goal" is in the process... to learn to look at the self as connected while experiencing individuality. We are already one, that is why I believe we choose to have a physical experience. To experience something different. To experience the world, enjoy it as we see fit, and yet discover that we are still connected to all.

The Ego is part of the experience of separateness, part of the illusion, but I believe we do possess a consciousness that is unique within the whole. A special tone perhaps. A unique color in a vast spectrum. It isn't something to deny, it is something to explore and enjoy, to come to KNOW well, through unlimited experience.

The mind is useful, it is a processor of desire and experience and creativity, and there are many other useful parts of the body in that process. None of it was created to be denied but to be embraced as it is a reflection of one aspect of Oneness.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by seagrass]