KT Challenge@Shanksville

And that little white drone reported by Susan McElwain doesn't bother you at all?
Not even a tiny bit?
And all those other planes reported by multiple locals, who saw them with their own eyes, don't bother you at all?

If you can accept deceptive behavior by politicians and military planners alike, which has been reported and proved many times in just recent history, then why do people have such a difficulty to accept the same concept for 9/11, especially when more and more evidence of fabrication of "proof" submerges.

NIST, 2.25 seconds of PROVEN free fall gravitational acceleration in the first moments of WTC 7 global collapsing.
No resistance at all!

Originally posted by LaBTop
And that little white drone reported by Susan McElwain doesn't bother you at all?
Not even a tiny bit?
And all those other planes reported by multiple locals, who saw them with their own eyes, don't bother you at all?

It would not be fair to me to comment on your post LabTop... You were very detailed and will take some time to go over all of it.

Please leave the WTC-7 theories on the other threads.

I will ask you a 4th time now. How did the government stage the calls from the passengers that changed their plans at the last minute?



[edit on 2-4-2009 by CameronFox]

Regarding the phone calls.

We are confronting very clever people, with loads of black budget funds, with years to spend on honing down the scenario to seemingly ridiculous fine tuning, and that voice morphing technique was around, much earlier than 2001.

Look up Echelon, and follow leads from there.

They faked many voices from world leaders, when necessary in certain scenarios. Iraqi generals have been fooled that way, to swing them over to the allied camp, believing that they were on a hit list from their beloved leader.
And many more instances when this technique proved very helpful to put some pressure on someone's opinions.

So, yes, the whole mainstream media pushed patriotic phone calls game was probably no more than that, a clever game to push a lot of patriotic switches.

reply to post by LaBTop



I agree with that, it seem the harder we dig the more lies we uncover in the OS.
It appears that most of the lies steam from the FBI and there is no denying that.

The OS story about Shanksville does not stand up to the abundance of evidences that has been found. The NTSB, and the FDR data contradict each other so, I have to ask why are they lying. Why did the FBI lie about Barbra Olsen phone call that was proven during the Mossaoui trial.
It appears the FBI did a nice job fooling everyone about the fake info, about the highjackers on board flight 93 from the phone call that never happened. The FBI told this info to the mass media which played on all the New outlets endlessly which fool the American people to believe in Barbra Olsen phone calls, and furthmore, after the truth has been exposed I have seen little to no media coverage about this evidences. Why is the FBI not being held accountable for lying to the American people, and the News stations, and to congress?

This just boggles my mind to no end, and then there are those in here that claim there is no conspiracy, I already see a conspiracy of a massive cover-up with all the lies that has already been exposed

Originally posted by LaBTop
Regarding the phone calls.

Actually I heard Dr. George Papcun was the inventor of voice morphing.

It was 1999 when it was created. Not that it matters. the government had NO IDEA who was getting on that plane. That alone rules out your theory. I don't care what type of funding you allege that had.

Mark Bingham called 3 numbers before talking to his mother.

I am not denying the technology. It does exist. It does not however carry on several conversations with loved ones knowing intimate details when it didn't even know you were going to be on the plane.

LaBTop... you have yet to offer once reasonable explanation as to how this was done with the passengers that changed their flights at the last minute.

Originally posted by impressme

I agree with that, it seem the harder we dig the more lies we uncover in the OS.

You agree with what? That the government knew that several passengers were going to change their minds with their flights...only to have their voices morphed in those few moments...thus leading to the government voice morphing specialists to carry on conversations with loved ones that they didn't even know they had? LaBTop has been unable through several post explain how this was done. Perhaps you can shed some light on it?

The OS story about Shanksville does not stand up to the abundance of evidences that has been found.

When will you be sourcing said evidence?

The NTSB, and the FDR data contradict each other so, I have to ask why are they lying.

Um... what? Please show us how the NTSB and the FDR contradicted each other:

Here is the flight path study from the NTSB regarding the FDR. Can you please point out the contradictions?

This just boggles my mind to no end, and then there are those in here that claim there is no conspiracy, I already see a conspiracy of a massive cover-up with all the lies that has already been exposed

I'm just awaiting your expose. So far, you have posted only your opinion.

Originally posted by CameronFox

Originally posted by screwedagain
The photo of the engine part proves it was taken at the site, but SPreston proved how that part was planted.

he speculated what he thinks happen. He proved nothing of the sort.

He showed convincing evidence the engine was planted. It also make sense why that is the only photo on the net that shows debris being dug up because there wasn't a plane buried and they had to stage that photo to make people believe a plane was buried there.

Sorry, can't help you.

The government tells us most of the plane was buried and only one photo at the net to prove it, a photo that was shown to be staged. Do you need anything more to see you've been suckered by the government?

Employees of UA were on the scene on September 11th. Mabey not doing the digging, but they were there. You have an opportunity to find out... will you?

So they were there if that is true. So what? What does that prove other than they were on the scene?

I don't know. I have told you this. Three times now.

You know it crash, but don't know if the official story is true. Got it.

If most of the plane was in the crater, then what's the problem?

Prove it was. It's the official story as the video showed.

Originally posted by thedman
Apparently missed part how dozens of people crawled on hand and knees for weeks after recovering pieces of debris, including body parts.

What is this supposed to prove, parts were not planted?

Some
of the debris was ploughed into the ground - which was soft dirt from
old strip mine. Lot of pieces were sprayed in direction of flight

That is the opposite of the official story. They said lots of pieces plowed into the ground and some debris scattered above. Do you not believe the official story either?

Searchers recovered estimated 90% of aircraft, some 60 tons, enough to
fill 10 construction bins with debris.

Please share with us where you got that 90% figure?

Large piece of fuselage - above ground

The official story says it should be under the ground.

Note how similar descriptions of crash scenes - this plane hit at about 350
mph at steep angle

Similar, but ultimately shows the official Flight 93 story doesn't hold up.

Originally posted by CameronFox
Why so little debris?

Were you trying to show why there was so little debris, or why the debris was so little?

reply to post by CameronFox

I agree with that, it seem the harder we dig the more lies we uncover in the OS.

You agree with what? That the government knew that several passengers were going to change their minds with their flights...only to have their voices morphed in those few moments...thus leading to the government voice morphing specialists to carry on conversations with loved ones that they didn't even know they had? LaBTop has been unable through several post explain how this was done. Perhaps you can shed some light on it?

CF I was not addressing “you”. When are you going to start giving us some sources with “scientific” facts that supports your OS, instead of your opinions eh!

It is obvious you are the only one in here that screams the OS is true, but you have not given us one shred of evidences with some real science that backs your claims, just your opinions, and internet links to she said, and he said. (Nothing but hearsay.)

CF when the bulldozer was unearthing the so call engine at ground zero in Shanksville, why didn’t the FBI have them dig any further down to pull the rest of the airplane out eh?
Instead, they cover up half of an old rusty airplane engine in a hole, and snaps some pictures and we do not have any proof that those pictures were taken at ground zero in Shanksville, or at some airplane bone yard. (And you cannot prove ether.)
CF everyone in here has pointed out inconsistency, after inconsistency in the OS of the Shanksville story, yet you still continue to ignore all of the evidences that has been given to you.

The OS story about Shanksville does not stand up to the abundance of evidences that has been found.

When will you be sourcing said evidence?

You are “JOKING” right!

The NTSB, and the FDR data contradict each other so, I have to ask why are they lying.

Um... what? Please show us how the NTSB and the FDR contradicted each other:

(IMG:i47.photobucket.com...)

www.ntsb.gov...

killtown.911review.org...

THE FLIGHT 93 FRAUD- Smoking Gun Evidence

www.youtube.com...

This just boggles my mind to no end, and then there are those in here that claim there is no conspiracy, I already see a conspiracy of a massive cover-up with all the lies that has already been exposed

I'm just awaiting your expose. So far, you have posted only your opinion.

You must have forgotten CF, we are on a conspiracy site not in a court of law, and we are entitled to our opinions including you, however, I have never claimed my opinions are fact.
If you feel I have, then why don’t you demonstrate to where I have made such a claim eh!






[edit on 3-4-2009 by impressme]

Originally posted by screwedagain

He showed convincing evidence the engine was planted. It also make sense why that is the only photo on the net that shows debris being dug up because there wasn't a plane buried and they had to stage that photo to make people believe a plane was buried there.

He didn't show ANY evidence. What he presented was an opinion. Just like you are in the above paragraph.

The government tells us most of the plane was buried and only one photo at the net to prove it, a photo that was shown to be staged. Do you need anything more to see you've been suckered by the government?

Do I need more?? I haven't been shown anything at all. Just wild accusations and unfounded opinions.

So they were there if that is true. So what? What does that prove other than they were on the scene?

Another poster stated that they were not, and that there wasn't "any investigation."

You know it crash, but don't know if the official story is true. Got it.

I have "got it" since I did my research. When did you say you will be presenting evidence?

Prove it was. It's the official story as the video showed.

I showed with math, the kinetic energy involved in the crash. The estimate of the equivalent in TNT. I also showed a similar high speed air crash with very similar results. I showed phone calls, FDR, CVR, interviews, photographs. .... it just goes on. You believe (and Killtown) that the absence of photographic evidence is proof of a cover up.

There comes a time that you have to let it go. But, I know you wont.

Originally posted by screwedagain

What is this supposed to prove, parts were not planted?

what it proves is that airplane parts were there from flight 93. You are the one making the extraordinary claims..you are the one that has to prove they did NOT come from flight 93. You can start with your serial number rant again. Keep in mind that flight 93 was tracked on radar until it's crash.

Please share with us where you got that 90% figure?

Here:www.thepittsburghchannel.com...

Allow me to post an opinion here. I have yet to find the audio or video of the press conference where Bill Crowley states that 95% was recovered. From what I read, he states that 95% of what was recovered was given to United Airline. The other 5% was the FDR and the CVR which the FBI is in possession of.

My OPINION is that 95% was not recovered.

At a news conference, FBI agent Bill Crowley said that the field near Shanksville, Somerset County, has been turned over to the county coroner and that 95 percent of the plane found at the site has been turned over to United Airlines.

The official story says it should be under the ground.

Please source that.

Similar, but ultimately shows the official Flight 93 story doesn't hold up.

You are speculating. Please provide us with your thoughts on what the crash scene should of looked like. Then, please provide a professional crash scene investigator that agrees with you.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by CameronFox]

Originally posted by impressme


CF I was not addressing “you”. When are you going to start giving us some sources with “scientific” facts that supports your OS, instead of your opinions eh!

you were given the math that shows the kinetic energy produced by the high speed crash. The estimated TNT equivalent was also shown. The "science" has been shown.

It is obvious you are the only one in here that screams the OS is true, but you have not given us one shred of evidences with some real science that backs your claims, just your opinions, and internet links to she said, and he said. (Nothing but hearsay.)

So, again you stick to your notion that:

a. The victims family's or the victims themselves were lying.

or

b. The phone calls were faked.

Do you see a problem here? If not... then your signature is spot on.

You and LaBTop have failed to explain how the government was able to voice morph several passengers that they had no idea were going to be on that flight.

CF when the bulldozer was unearthing the so call engine at ground zero in Shanksville, why didn’t the FBI have them dig any further down to pull the rest of the airplane out eh?

I don't know. The FBI was there to determine if a bomb was the cause of the crash. (FDR had not been analyzed yet) By the 24th of September, it was determined that there was not a bomb and the FBI completed their investigation. I don't know exactly how much was pulled out of the ground. I will tell you that it is not important to me. If it is THAT important to you, how come I have not yet received a U2U requesting UA contact information? You can ask them yourself. ( i know you wont)

Instead, they cover up half of an old rusty airplane engine in a hole, and snaps some pictures and we do not have any proof that those pictures were taken at ground zero in Shanksville, or at some airplane bone yard. (And you cannot prove ether.)

How many people are involved in your fantasy? You saw the picture of the area. You saw the pictures of the people sweeping the area. You as usual are dismissing anything and everything that proves your fantasy is not real.

CF everyone in here has pointed out inconsistency, after inconsistency in the OS of the Shanksville story, yet you still continue to ignore all of the evidences that has been given to you.

All you have shown me that is legit is the FOIA in request for serial numbers. That's all you got. You are accusing some people of mass murder...you will need to do a little better than that.

You are “JOKING” right!

Besides the serial numbers (lack there of) what have you show... nothing but constant hand waving and opinion. That's it.

(IMG:i47.photobucket.com...)

Um, who drew this?? Has this been reviewed by anyone? You are saying that this drawing (looks like a Killtown drawing) shows that the NTSB and the FDR contradict each other? I still don't get it.

This just boggles my mind to no end, and then there are those in here that claim there is no conspiracy, I already see a conspiracy of a massive cover-up with all the lies that has already been exposed

Can I ask you to list the lies regarding flight 93 that ou are talking about?

You must have forgotten CF, we are on a conspiracy site not in a court of law, and we are entitled to our opinions including you, however, I have never claimed my opinions are fact.
If you feel I have, then why don’t you demonstrate to where I have made such a claim eh!

Deny Ignorance. You are accusing the United States Government for mass murder on 9/11. You have not backed this up with ANY proof whatsoever.

Here are a couple "facts" of yours:

We all know that none of the airplanes crashes where not investigated and we all know NONE of the time change out parts were ever matched to said planes, this is a fact.

I never fell for that fallacy after I found out that all these statements came from the FBI infact, the FBI has lied to us about everything that contains to 911.

You have not offered any evidence to back this up. You have stated them as fact.

VOICE MORPHING

The following is a letter from the creator of Voice Morphing Technology to Mr. Ronald Weik of Hardfire. He hits on pretty much all of the points I have. I just thought you folks may want to hear it from the horses mouth.

Purveyors of conspiracy theories have claimed that the events of 9/11 were the result of a massive government plot and cover-up. (See, for example, www.loosechange911.com) According to their version of events, there were no hijackers. Instead, the World Trade Center buildings were blown up by explosives planted inside the buildings rather than, or at least in addition to, the effects of the passenger airplanes crashing into them. They claim that the government (or the CIA or someone other than Osama bin Laden and the hijackers) was behind 9/11.

However, a major problem for their allegation, given that they claim there were no hijackers, is that the passengers on United Flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania called home with desperate messages to loved ones, in which they said there were hijackers. Accordingly, the conspiracy theory purveyors have needed to claim that someone (namely, me) created the voices of the passengers in those phone calls. That allegation is plainly outrageous and demeaning to the memories of those courageous passengers.

I originally developed the technology of voice morphing, the technology by which it is possible to make someone seem to say something they did not say (see www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/dotmil/arkin020199.htm ) and coined the phrase. Therefore, I know what would have been required to create such bogus calls. Practical considerations preclude making counterfeit telephone calls in this situation. For example, it is necessary to have samples of the voices of the people to be imitated. In situations like this, where the goal is to participate in an unconstrained conversation, the voice sample must be extensive. I cannot imagine how I might have obtained extensive samples of the voices of the passengers on Flight 93, especially not knowing which of them would call home. Additionally, in this situation it would be necessary to know what someone would say to his or her loved ones under such circumstances. What pet names would be used? What references would be made to children and other loved ones? Do believers actually suppose that the government (or I) listens in to everyone’s pillow talk? In a separate essay, I will cover the technical aspects of voice morphing, which will further demonstrate the implausibility of the scenario set forth by the purveyors of conspiracy theories.

Whether such wild-eyed theories are worth being concerned about is problematic. However, in their own words, their conspiracy theory organization “has grown from a cult following to a grassroots organism that can no longer be contained” (op cit). I have received email from a high school social studies teacher who told me that her students actually believe that I did everything the purveyors of conspiracy theories say I did. Why they would so mistrust their government and be so naïve with regard to technical issues are interesting questions, albeit matters well beyond the scope of this essay.

-George Papcun, Ph.D

Voice Morphing

posted by screwedagain
The photo of the engine part proves it was taken at the site, but SPreston proved how that part was planted.

posted by CameronFox
he speculated what he thinks happen. He proved nothing of the sort.

posted by screwedagain
He showed convincing evidence the engine was planted. It also make sense why that is the only photo on the net that shows debris being dug up because there wasn't a plane buried and they had to stage that photo to make people believe a plane was buried there.

The government tells us most of the plane was buried and only one photo at the net to prove it, a photo that was shown to be staged. Do you need anything more to see you've been suckered by the government?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/789ad1c93c85.jpg[/atsimg]

There seems no doubt that engine part was placed there in the soft dirt by the backhoe and staged with the FBI overseeing the fraud. Is there anybody in this world who does not know that the FBI are experts at fraud and evidence manufacturing? How many whistleblowers have they had in just the past 20 years telling us so? A dozen? Twenty?

With all the photos taken at the Shanksville crime scene, how come there are no photos of the back hoe digging before the engine was 'found' or digging up other 'buried pieces' of the alleged aircraft?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aa6028f1aaa0.jpg[/atsimg]

And absolutely not one serial number from the crime scene to prove what aircraft was allegedly in that hole. It could be any aircraft or NO aircraft at all. Isn't it strange how this 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY absolutely DEPENDS on no aircraft serial numbers being found? On all four alleged aircraft?

posted by CameronFox
Employees of UA were on the scene on September 11th. Mabey not doing the digging, but they were there. You have an opportunity to find out... will you?

Maybe the United Airlines employees were kept behind this red fence by the FBI
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5264ab07a173.jpg[/atsimg]

And they were most likely cordoned off by the FBI far from the digging, just like all the other 9-11 crime scenes. Maybe they sat in their cars during the engine photo op. Or maybe they arrived after all the digging and photo ops were complete. Or maybe the UA guys really were not there at all; just another Mainstream Media 'rumor'.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/735933b6ca22.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b49950429cf8.jpg[/atsimg]

More photo ops from the Shanksville crime scene

Still more photo ops from the Shanksville crime scene

There is one of the backhoes
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d46aa89cf6ec.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by SPreston
With all the photos taken at the Shanksville crime scene, how come there are no photos of the back hoe digging before the engine was 'found' or digging up other 'buried pieces' of the alleged aircraft?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aa6028f1aaa0.jpg[/atsimg]

Do you see all those red and blue buckets? Those are what they are collecting the smaller parts in. One is for plane parts, the other is for body fragments.

Your entire post is filled with nothing but assumptions, speculation, and opinion. When do you plan on dealing with facts SPreston?

posted by CameronFox

Your entire post is filled with nothing but assumptions, speculation, and opinion. When do you plan on dealing with facts SPreston?

Like you do? No thanks. I prefer to not work for traitors.

With all the photos taken at the alleged Shanksville crime scene, how come there are no photos of the backhoe digging before the engine was 'found' or digging up other 'buried pieces' of the alleged aircraft? It looks like a piece of that alleged 6 ton turbofan engine is 3 or 4 inches below ground level. That 6 ton rusty and supposedly spinning at high rpm old engine hit that soft dirt strip mine at 563 mph and buried just a foot or so? Sure it did.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/789ad1c93c85.jpg[/atsimg]

Does anybody see any pieces of 90 tons of aircraft buried in the soil with the 'retrieved' rusty old engine? No? I see junk which might go into a garbage dump; but no aircraft debris. Surely when the 90 ton aircraft allegedly slammed into the strip mine, pieces of the wings and fuselage would have disappeared into the dirt with the alleged engine. That soil should be littered with torn pieces of aluminum and aircraft debris. The engine should be buried in aluminum; not just dirt. But no aluminum or aircraft parts anywhere in sight. Can't these FBI agents stage anything right and believable?

Larger Official photo of alleged turbofan engine buried in dirt

Supposedly the landing gear were retracted and still inside the fuselage. So why weren't they there buried in the dirt with the rusty old engine? The FBI didn't have enough trucks to freight the pieces to Shanksville? Where are the seats and baggage? Wheels and tires? Steel just doesn't pulverize into powder; especially when slamming into soft dirt at an alleged OFFICIAL NTSB speed of 563 mph.

Oh yeah. Where is the perfectly folded and ultra clean red cowboy bandana they found buried in the dirt? Does anybody see it peeking up from the soil somewhere? Why did they have it cleaned and pressed if it was supposed to be used as evidence at the Moussaoui Trial? Or did the FBI have it delivered to Shanksville just like that? Maybe somebody forgot to have the backhoe run over it a few times before it was 'found'?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3c397030e2f2.jpg[/atsimg]

OFFICIAL government photo of red cowboy hijacker bandana from Flight 93



[edit on 4/3/09 by SPreston]

reply to post by CameronFox



You have “failed” to show your OS is true you only parrot media lies nothing more
911 was an inside job and you cannot prove that it was not.

Too many “lies” in the OS, and that is a FACT!
We can dance all over this all day long; however, you will not accept the real facts that I have shown you. You just hand wave everything like you always do. In addition, you only keep parroting the OS, which has already been a proven lie. Therefore, CF you need to try to convince someone else that the OS lie is true because you will not with me.

CF why do you believe in the government OS, despite all the real evidences that has been proven, and discovered that does not support the OS?

Again...

The ball Not the player.

The post Not the poster

Going forward Please focus responses on the Topic of discussion. Any further comments pertaining to a fellow member's character or person will be subject to removal.


Thank You.

Originally posted by impressme
CF why do you believe in the government OS, despite all the real evidences that has been proven, and discovered that does not support the OS?

Can you please list the evidence you have that supports whatever your theory is?

So far, you have come up with the serial numbers not being recorded. This was conceded by me many pages ago. I will kindly ask that you take this opportunity to post what evidence you have. Not your opinion, not what you "think".. I would like to see the facts you have.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

edit to add... please list the "lies" that I have posted as well.

Thanks

[edit on 3-4-2009 by CameronFox]