Why the Chemtrail Conspiracy is Unplausible, and Meteorologically Innacurate

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by firepilot

 

Sorry, water crystals.
But, do they then fall down as a shower of particles, (I'm not talking about rain, either)
but a fine drift of dust-like material. I've seen it.

Yes, it is called mares tail cirrus, and been observed for a long time.

Sometimes ice crystals can fall from clouds. Sometimes is small crystals falling from cirrus, and sometimes its bigger crystals falling from lower clouds and we call that snow

There is nothing inherently suspicious about stuff falling from clouds. People get scared of everything these days apparently.

Here is a summary of a paper dealing with directly this topic, actually I think it applies completely to "chemtrails" since it directly addresses survival time of ice crystals.

Cant get it to work, URL will not copy properly. Anyways the title is "The Survival of Ice Particles Falling from Cirrus Clouds in Subsaturated Air", you should be able to search for that and find it, it is on AMS website.

Here is the first sentence of the paper
"A theoretical study has been carried out to determine the relevant microphysical processes which control the survival distance of ice particles failing from cirrus clouds in subsaturated air, and to determine the atmospheric conditions which are necessary for such particles to “seed” lower level supercooled clouds and thereby initiate glaciation."


[edit on 20-3-2009 by firepilot]

[edit on 20-3-2009 by firepilot]

[edit on 20-3-2009 by firepilot]

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
reply to post by Essan

 

you will see that radar can indeed see these CHEMTRAILS and its been noted since 2000. They work with the HAARP txtr in Alaska and are used to put domes of whatever over top of certain areas of the world. As you can see by the pictures they are being seen by radar. At first tv met techs believed it was flocks of birds or something along that line.... but birds don't show up as domes covering a whole city unless these birds are invisible...

Ok, Im starting to doubt that you are talking about met techs here, or at least proffesional ones. I dont know how you work in the USA, but we take units that deal with interpreting imagery on our weather watch radars

Those radar anomalies have nothing to with chemtrails, contrails or weather of any kind.

One thing you should know, is that weather watch radars, are set up to reflect nothing but water vapour, although back scatter does occur. The ring anomaly is usually someone dialing into the radar itself to perform a test do determines the radar is in good wroking order or not. Ive seen it done here (darwin met office) in skies with no clouds

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

Yes, it WOULD heat up the freezer!
I have canned and frozen A LOT of home garden vegetables, and you have to let them cool BEFORE putting them in the freezer!

Ok, here's a better idea, that would relate to the chemtrail/ contrail debate.

Boil approx, one millilitre of water, find an industrial size freezer (like the ones where they have meat hanging from hooks), put the minute amount of boiling water into the room. Check if the room heats up from the water....

This is a better realtion, given the size of the engine relative to the size of the troposphere

And yes, I will stop using chemtrailer if it offends you, as long as disinfo agent, shrill....liar and etc are not continued (which they shouldnt thnaks to the mods)

Originally posted by firepilot

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by firepilot

 

Sorry, water crystals.
But, do they then fall down as a shower of particles, (I'm not talking about rain, either)
but a fine drift of dust-like material. I've seen it.

Yes, it is called mares tail cirrus, and been observed for a long time.

Yep, thats correct

Its also known as virga which is defined as precipitation not reaching the ground. It happens in all the cloud types, but most often in cirrus as the cloud occurs at too high an altitude, and the ice crystals fall into drier air (or are dispersed) before they reach the ground

www.weathernotebook.org...

allthesky.com...

VIRGA is rain though, that evaporates before it hits the ground due to falling through warm dry air. VIRGA actually is actually an acronym - Variable Intenisty Rain Gradients Aloft.


[edit on 20-3-2009 by firepilot]

Originally posted by firepilot
VIRGA is rain though, that evaporates before it hits the ground due to falling through warm dry air. VIRGA actually is actually an acronym - Variable Intenisty Rain Gradients Aloft.


[edit on 20-3-2009 by firepilot]

Yeah, that what I said.

I may have got myself lost somewhere over the last couple of posts. My point was, virga is considered as precipitation, rather then just rain (well that how my met agency operates anyway). Therefore it can fall in the form of ice crystals as well as water. One of the links I showed is a picture of virga, from a site Im not related to

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Whether you doubt who I am talking to doesn't play into the picture. I doubt that your a real weatherman or one that has anything to do with the weather does that mean I don't see anything in your posts?

I have shown that the radar images are questionable and the link provided answer questions that some may have. My met tech friends would be saying the same thing I am if they were not afraid of their security. Kinda like asking a military person to talk freely about he thinks is really going on in the military. That person would be brought up on charges or reprimanded in some way.

If weather radar only picks up water then why do those that see these images come out with statements saying that it could be birds or some other ridiculous thing.

I know about radar and how it works... thank you

Rgds

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

If weather radar only picks up water then why do those that see these images come out with statements saying that it could be birds or some other ridiculous thing.

I know about radar and how it works... thank you

Maybe I said it wrong or misinterpreted you.

I said, a weather radar is only calibrated to get reflectivity back from rain echos. It also shows low cloud such as fog Occasionally metallic objects such as chaff, do affect the return signal.

We use to radars at Darwin Met Office, one to track the weather balloons (unless we are using GPS sondes), and also one located a few kilometres away, which is primarily used for weather watch. Both radars have two different settings, as balloons, and rain typically have different echos. However if we have particularly heavy rain, it is known for us to lose balloons for the permanent echos.

Oh, and I didnt say I wanted there names or know who they are, just the station number, you dont even have to name it

Here's mine (which I am voluntarily sharing)

Darwin Met Office

WMO Number is 94120

Station Number is 014015

Nothing revealing about that is there, only us Met guys will have any clue what we are sharing anyway

I did not say it can ONLY pick up water. I said it does not pick up clouds, and clouds are water, so you are not understanding the concept I am trying to walk some of you into.

Radar is not going to just pick up clouds (with no precip), nor things like pixie chemtrail virus barium magical slyph dust either, but can sometimes pick up birds, bats, and even some insects. There is a reason for it, its designed that way too. Have you picked up on what I am talking about?

And now you think there is some conspiracy that keeps mets from talking about how radar works???? You can look online all over about how precip radars work, its not a secret at all. The company I work for has several of them for sale.

That seems to be another chemtrail believer tactic, just lump everyone into one giant conspiracy of silence. We must be up to several hundred thousand people involved by now if not more.

reply to post by firepilot


Just to add to your post Firepilot, and for anyone that is interested in learning about radar....the below link may help

www.bom.gov.au...

reply to post by OzWeatherman


There is something wrong with me providing it. My friends that have a WMO of 12345 will be identified as being from a certain office and then that lets people know that there are those that have spoken about CHEMTRAILS... they had one guy recently posted north... way north because he talked about them alot.... could have been for other reasons but my friends don't think so and they are the ones who ask for anonymity... I respect that and I'm sorry the rest of you don't...

I realize they have different types of radars... and dishes for tracking and picking up the signal from the balloon sondes... but that doesn't explain why we frequently had weird weather patterns on tv wx show up and the guys saying all kinds of weird and wonderful things about it.... That's what I show in the links I provided showing the radar 'domes' covering some cities... I'll try to find the one where there were about 35 or 40 domes across the US.... I think that their reasoning was some type of malfunction...

A malfunction of all systems across the board is extremely ridiculous and they still haven't shown how it could happen... And why is it still happening across the US but just not on such a grand scale? They've been made aware of certain things so that it won't happen again... Lesson learned...

That's why they exercise... to weed out the problems so they can be corrected or "Covered up"...

Rgds


[edit on 20-3-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

A malfunction of all systems across the board is extremely ridiculous and they still haven't shown how it could happen... And why is it still happening across the US but just not on such a grand scale? They've been made aware of certain things so that it won't happen again... Lesson learned...

Apparently meterologists and weather services are part of chemtrail conspiracy. I think we are into the millions of people now required for chemtrails.

So yes or no, when you see circular rings on a computer display from radar, do you think that there is some kind of precipitation going on in a perfectly circular pattern just that happens to coincide perfectly with that radar?

While you find the idea of several networked radars which use the same software, all having a mode failure of some kind remote, thats a heck of a lot more likely than every one of those places having perfectly round rain events surrounding the radars.

The fact that there were persistent contrails prior to 1998 does not disprove chemtrails.
The fact that persistent contrails, today as well as in the past, can and do diffuse into cloud formations, does not disprove chemtrails.

In fact, I see no reason at all why ordinary, water/ice contrails can't co-exist peacefully with chemtrails (unlike some of the people participating in this thread). Do you?

If we could all consider agreeing with two basic premises, we might get past some of this round and round bickering and actually make some discoveries or at least have some constructive discussion.

1. Some ordinary water/ice contrails persist for hours, and can, given the right conditions, diffuse to form clouds and cloud cover, and water droplets and ice crystals in air have reflective and prism-like properties which can make them appear to be different colors like yellow, red, orange, etc. (think of rainbows!).

2. There is a body of evidence suggesting that not all persistent contrails are just water or ice, some may contain other chemicals which have been dispersed deliberately.

If we could all agree to those two simple points, we could get past all the pre- and post- 1998 stuff and arguing over pictures and what's what. A picture can not tell us what a fluffy white trail in the sky is composed of. Our eyes can not tell us what a fluffy white trail in the sky is composed of. Only analysis of samples can tell us what the trails are composed of, so arguing about duration, persistence, and what is shown in old or new pictures is really pointless. No amount of "looking weird" in a picture proves what a particular trail or cloud formation is composed of! As someone else pointed out earlier (in a great post btw), you can't tell a glass of salt water from a glass of fresh water by looking at it, and you can't tell a contrail from a chemtrail by looking at it!

I for one think it would be really nice if we could get past either "all persistent contrails must be chemtrails" or "since persistent contrails exist there can't be any chemtrails" and get on to talking about the other evidence such as air and soil samples and some illnesses possibly having a connection to chemical-laden contrails.

reply to post by firepilot


While those perfectly round rain events that you speak of may be possible they are not what is indicated when on the ground people take pictures of perfectly clear skies and no rain....

And yes I know that equipment can malfunction and they are tied into each other in some way but they have safeguards that protect against this and they do tests to prove the system...

rgds

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

There is something wrong with me providing it. My friends that have a WMO of 12345 will be identified as being from a certain office and then that lets people know that there are those that have spoken about CHEMTRAILS...

Ok fair enough, but stop doubting my abilities and what I do for a living, and I will respect your choice not to post any details about their station

A malfunction of all systems across the board is extremely ridiculous and they still haven't shown how it could happen... And why is it still happening across the US but just not on such a grand scale? They've been made aware of certain things so that it won't happen again... Lesson learned...

Well, we look forward to that information. If its what I think it is, which is one radar after another over the network showing the rings, then it is a complete quality control check of the radar network. If it was weather then, I would expect the METARAWS, and observations to reflect the wx at the time.

Oh and by the way, the images you showed were from biased websites, that seem to know nothing about radar. But of course, Im assuming that along with the 96,000 odd met offices in the world, plus the WMO, and all the private meteorologists, and weather enthusiasts and airline pilots, and aircraft mechanics, plus all the governments in the world....the radar makers will be in on the conspiracy

I thought a conspiracy was supposed to be between only a few top ranked officials...not millions of them

[edit on 20/3/2009 by OzWeatherman]

2. There is a body of evidence suggesting that not all persistent contrails are just water or ice, some may contain other chemicals which have been dispersed deliberately.

No, there is not. Thats exactly it, there is no evidence. Just point people at clouds and contrails saying "I know what it is when I see it".

There are no pictures of chemplanes, no photos of chemplane bases, no sampled contrails, just a bunch of junk science and absolute garbage posted online.

Look at all the webpages that accuse airlines of being involved, yet never a photo ever of any airline outfitted with spraying gear. My challenge is still going though, I would love for someone to browse through photos on airliners.net, or even better yet, take photos of aircraft in flight and show me a chemplane.

Some chemtrail webpages even have up pictures of "magical slyphs" that go around and eat chemtrails.
educate-yourself.org...

This one say we are being sprayed with AIDS
www.chimachine4u.com...

Garbage, absolute garbage.

Originally posted by Heike
I for one think it would be really nice if we could get past either "all persistent contrails must be chemtrails" or "since persistent contrails exist there can't be any chemtrails" and get on to talking about the other evidence such as air and soil samples and some illnesses possibly having a connection to chemical-laden contrails.

Thats interesting Heike

I agree, that contrails cant be doing anything good for the upper troposphere environment, just like exhaust from hydrocarbon burning vehicles here on the ground, cant be doing anything good for the air close to the surface

Contrails also reflect incoming radiation from the sun (ice has the ability to do that), as well as trapping outgoing radiation when the earth cools at night, particularly if you have alayer of cirrostratus formed from the spreading out of cirrus of contrails.

You will prbably notice on days where there is a layer of cloud, whether it be a layer of stratus, stratocumulus, altostratus, altocumulus or cirrostratus, the temperature gradient is much less, than it would be on a clear day, but the maximum temperature for the day will also be less, as incoming heat doesnt penetrate the clouds very well.

So on a clear day you may have:

Max Temp 24 degrees celsius
Min Temp 12 degrees celsius

On a cloudy day you may have:

Max Temp 17 degrees celsius
Min Temp 14 degrees celsius

This thread is like listening to two people who speak different languages trying to figure out where the train station is located.

It's so weird, I can't stop following it.

Originally posted by MrPenny
This thread is like listening to two people who speak different languages trying to figure out where the train station is located.

It's so weird, I can't stop following it.

Thats quite true I think

It seems most of us with the science background are using our own logic, and raw data to prove our points, while the other side is using pictures, youtube and other conspiracy websites as evidence