Why the Chemtrail Conspiracy is Unplausible, and Meteorologically Innacurate

reply to post by Heike

All right. I'll play.

1.

Barium is emitted mainly from mining and refining industrial processes, in the production of barium chemicals, and as a result of combustion of coal and oil (HSDB, 1993). It is used as a catalyst for organic reactions, as a lubricating oil additive, as rat poison, in the manufacture of paper electrodes, in fireworks, and in electroplating (Proctor, 1991). Barium is also used as a carrier for radium and radioactive barium forms (133, 137M) which are used as standards in gamma spectrometry (Merck, 1989). It is used as a deoxidizer for copper, in Frary's metal, as a lubricant for anode rotors in x-ray tubes, and in spark-plug alloys (Sax, 1987). It is also used in paints, soap, paper and rubber, and in the manufacture of ceramics and glass. However, one of the larger uses is to remove the last traces of gases from vacuum and television picture tubes (HSDB, 1993). The primary stationary sources that have reported emissions of barium compounds in California are electric lighting and wiring manufacturing, office furniture manufacturing, and national security (ARB, 1997b).

www.scorecard.org...

2. The grid patterns of contrails are created by air traffic patterns.
Similar to what can be seen here:

3. Contrails cannot cause sickness. The period from October through April has been known as the "cold and flu season" since I can remember (late 50's). The cold weather which causes people to stay indoors and become more susceptible to disease, is the same weather which is conducive to the formation of persistent contrails.

Originally posted by Heike
1. If the Barium, which is consistently reported at unsafe atmospheric levels, is not coming from "chemtrails," then where else could it be coming from?

Ground sources. There are a lot of manufacturing plants that release large amounts of barium into the air, as well as natural sources of barium.

2. Please choose one or two of the pictures on this site: Strange Days, Strange Skies and explain what is in the picture if not chemtrails.

NKC-135

The only actual spraying plane that I've ever seen. However, it's the only one in use, and it only flies out of Edwards AFB. It sprays water on other aircraft to test their ability to handle icing and how they react to various types of icing. It would be pretty hard for it to be in more than one place to be laying all these chemtrails.

DOE Gulfstream I

This one collects samples of different aerosols in the atmosphere for testing. It's used by the Department of Energy.

G-1

Wake Vortex

This looks like a wake vortex test. They want to see what kind of wake vortex is given off from the plane in the lead. The only way to really test it is to fly another plane behind it. Using a bigger plane like they are in this, keeps you from risking the second plane in case the front plane has a bad vortex. A 757 is capable of taking a smaller plane and flipping it on its back.

767 tanker test

Looks like the tests they did for the KC-767 tanker. They had to see how the receiver would be affected by the wake of the 767, so they used two that were waiting for modification.



[edit on 3/19/2009 by Zaphod58]

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Hi HotBakedTater... thanks for the question...

What I would do is meet one of them and ask questions about anything other than chemtrails and contrails... Show them that they are the intelligent ones and they will be volunteering info after a while... Get closer by trying to meet after work when the shop is closed and they show you how their weather radar works and how they 'predict' the weather. This will have them feeling open enough to let you in on some things that they wouldn't tell others...


Drop by with a coffee a couple of days in a row and they probably will tell you the spraying routes if they knew them...

Rgds

Phage and Zap, thanks very much! You've just proven to me, and everyone, that you are both reasonable and sensible folks who are willing to answer questions when not being insulted or accused of anything.

Phage, not to disagree with your answer, as I do understand that humans are notoriously prone to confusing concurrence with cause and effect, but what about the "epidemic" reported in Ontario in Summer? Do you have any ideas regarding that?

Now for a real question that I have, not one of my debate questions but one that really bugs me about all this.

"Chemtrails are reported all over the world. US, Britain, Canada, Australia, Italy, China, Germany, France, Japan, and others.

Who could be behind this? The Americans say the US Govt, Brits say their govt, and presumably the Aussie believers suspect their government. Now, I might believe that the US, UK, and Aussieland are in "cahoots," but not some of the others.

So, how or why would all these different countries be doing the same thing? Keeping up with the Joneses? Some of the countries over which chemtrails have been reported don't even have the technology to do it! So who is? Surely China, Japan, and France among others aren't going to let the US or British governments spray their citizens with harmful chemicals!

So unless you believe that there is already a controlling "shadow" government the likes of the Illuminati or NWO worldwide, who could be doing this in so many different countries all over the world? Not to mention, WHY?

reply to post by Heike



The chemtrail phenomena is prevalent everywhere it would seem:

Chemtrails over Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Turkey and Cyprus

Chemtrails over Argentina, Bangladesh, Brazil, China, India, Italy, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Morocco, Pakistan, Russia, Spain, Ukraine and Uzbekistan.


It would seem, with the popularity of chemtrails that to most people, any contrail is now deemed a chemtrail.

This is worrying.


Also, to add to question 1:

Here's a list I've drawn up showing the TOTAL amount (in pounds) of barium, aluminium and their alternate forms released over 10 years.

• 1997 - 41,479,841
  
• 1998 - 273,161,271
  
• 1999 - 367,405,383
  
• 2000 - 381,077,404
  
• 2001 - 300,338,671
  
• 2002 - 255,367,294
  
• 2003 - 252,116,329
  
• 2004 - 283,923,691
  
• 2005 - 286,765,468
  
• 2006 - 272,520,410
  
• TOTAL - 2,714,155,762
  

2,714,155,762 pounds or 1,231,120,344.6 Kilograms!

From just two chemicals.

Taken from here

reply to post by Zaphod58

Ground sources. There are a lot of manufacturing plants that release large amounts of barium into the air, as well as natural sources of barium.

This statement as well as all the rest have been proven to not have much in the way of credence to the discussion here. It's been proven that yes we have barium being emitted from various sources on the ground. Its a given and been acknowledged but what you must remember is that they have found higher amounts directly after the chemtrail spraying was noticed. They also had samples of the goo analyzed that streamed from the mixture emitted from the plane and they found it to have various things within it as well as barium and aluminum derivatives. This is proven quite extensively here.

That link will also help point you to the connection that HAARP has with these chemtrails. All covered there and in some of his links.... The man states throughout his website that he is not a scientist or chemist etc... but like I stated earlier, you don't have to know that a pitbull that is choking itself on a chain to get to you is the kind of dog you don't want to play with.

The whole debate thing is already off sided with the questions....

1. Presumably the folks in charge of the Chemtrail program are human. They have friends and family which are not immune to the effects. Why, then, would they do this knowing that their friends and family would also be harmed?

Ever hear of an antidote given to someone before they go into an area where it may be needed. Or maybe the malaria shot if you go into this type of area...

2. Why are the 'effects' of chemtrails not seen in indicator animal species? (Or, if you say they are, please provide links to evidence of such).

Animals are dying around the world as we speak. Bees are dying because of chemtrail spraying, directly or indirectly... link

3. What evidence is there that the illnesses and effects of "chemtrail" fallout are not caused by pollution, soil/water contamination from other sources, and ordinary person-to-person transmission?

Link

Like I stated all covered in earlier posts and reiterated numerous times in later posts...

1. If the Barium, which is consistently reported at unsafe atmospheric levels, is not coming from "chemtrails," then where else could it be coming from?

It's been proven here, that the barium levels are not coming from a ground source at that level.

2. Please choose one or two of the pictures on this site: Strange Days, Strange Skies and explain what is in the picture if not chemtrails.

Please choose forty to fifty pictures from this website and explain why would these contrails that are suppose to dissipate are forming into clouds and causing extremly weird visual phenomena that is not normal.. Unless you include chemtrails into the theory then these visuals are normal...

3. Many people claim to be getting sick or having their health negatively impacted after seeing "chemtrails." Assuming this is not mass hysteria since thousands of otherwise reasonable people report it, how could ordinary contrails cause illness?

Most will claim that there is no difference and all remains the same. If you follow the story of morgellons then you will find that there is a link...

I had what the doctor thought was a tick removed from my upper leg the same day they did a biopsy on a mole from my back. The thing they thought was a tick turned out to be a couple of colored fibres after the doctor pulled it apart and showed me. He told me he had never seen anything like it before and sent it to the lab for tests. It never came back but the biopsy was negative.

Rgds


[edit on 19-3-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

reply to post by Heike

So unless you believe that there is already a controlling "shadow" government the likes of the Illuminati or NWO worldwide, who could be doing this in so many different countries all over the world? Not to mention, WHY?

All you have to believe is that someone higher up in the hierarchy has the ability to make certain functions of the government, not a single government, any government, secret. All it takes is for a Exercise or Operation to be classified topsepret and they have the right to lock you up for speaking like a human being should be speaking, in defense of those in the world that he loves... Just like I'm doing, defending all those that are being led by the nose by those in the government that seek to hide the truth and prevent the average citizen from seeing that their governments are killing them. That's all I'm doing. Why? I've been asked this a number of times... Why?

Because I love each and everyone of you on ATS. Even the ones that are against all that I stand for. I love those that have prevented me from getting a doctor within my community, thereby leading me down the road to me being near my end and a doctor won't help. I love those that have done me wrong because I recognize that we are all human and that for all evil done there is some good. Before Hitler did his dirty deeds he was acclaimed for his great leadership and love of his mankind.

Rgds
Time for a Coffee... (substitute)


[edit on 19-3-2009 by AllTiedTogether]

TO make it short, and passing this analysis is garbage. The chemtrails are real, they are used for different purposes depending on the chemical mix. One is barium and it reduces the immune system, to prepare the body of those that have the flu shots, designed to kill, and preexisting conditions to be effected by breathing problems, high blood pressure, depletion of potassium and magnesium, preparing for the assault coming from Mexico, Canada, Cuba and Alaska, plus the over 1,000,000 ++ UN troops already inside the us what have the real vaccine...to help establish martial law.

These are the facts.............you best buckle up for a whole lot of culling.

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
WW2 planes emmit much more particulate matter then modern day jets... which equal= more ice formation and = heavy contrails especially with when the propellers are spreading out the particles much more then a jet would in a much tighter area... Again too compare an old WW2 bomber to modern day jets in contrail formation is the most ludicrous and one of the funniest things I have every heard... I guess that's why you'r a "weatherman" keep to what you know ..the weather and aviation are two diff fields.....

So all of you think those WW2 aircraft pics are just smoke? Do you all seriously think every WW2 aircraft somehow had no piston rings and all of them somehow smoked their way across the sky?

Then look at that video and notice some of the lower level B-17s have no contrails while some of the ones at higher altitudes are making a contrail. I it was just smoke, wouldnt everyone of those planes be smoking continuously, especially on takeoff?

How come videos of all these bombers taking, which is when they would be at maximum power, never showed any giant smoke clouds from B-17s

Sorry, but the same process that made contrails from B-17s makes contrails from jet turbine powered aircraft. They both burn petroleum fuel, water vapor results which condenses in cold air, comes a water drop and possibly freezes into cirrus. And then some of you insist cirrus can not last more than little while. Are ice crystals unstable or something?

Yes, i have flown a type of radial engine aircraft that was a WW2 cargo plane. No, it did not leave billowing clouds of smoke behind it as it traveled.
There are LOTS of radial engine aircraft flying, many with the same kinds of WW2 engines. Show us a video of them leaving smoke across the sky.

One last little nail before I go to bed. Those piston engines burned much less fuel than jet engine aircraft of a similar size would do. Propellors are actually more efficent, as are piston engines, compared to the average jet turbine.


[edit on 20-3-2009 by firepilot]

Oh. and can someone show us an actual focus and detailed photo of one of thse "chemplanes". Its 2009, some chemtrail believer somewhere has had to have gotten a hold of a camera than can actually focus.

Or you can go to Airliners.net where they are MILLIONS of aircraft photos, find the ones that are chemplanes.

Unbelievable! 26 pages on an idiotic topic. Chemtrails do not exist. Period. End of argument. Contrails exist. Chemtrails do not. Only deluded fools would believe in chemtrails and their associated BS.

Alltiedtogether...

I ignore all the people who present information

That says it all. Now I am shaking my head in pitty for you, and for myself for trying to debate this topic with you.

Ignoring all people who present information? so, all the info you linked to about chemtrails is something you ignore, but still use it to back up your theory?

You really need to get a grip there my friend.

I now believe this is just a kid having fun on ATS......sigh. Shaking my head again.

Boo to you!!!!!!!!!!

The strongest case for chemtrails v. contrails is the altitude factor. For a jet to emit a contrail, they are generally at a cruising altitude of 30-40K ft. The heat exhaust combined with the extreme cold air at the high altitude generates condensation and if you observe contrails they extend probably several hundred feet behind the aircraft and dissipate very quickly, within seconds - the natural dominance of the colder air over the evaporating heat source.

Chemtrails generally appear at less than 15K ft, usually 10K. They will exhibit similar characteristics, regardless of the season - the primary element is their "hang time". I have observed and tracked chemtrails lasting 30 mins to an hour and find that the predominant occurrence is during the fall - spring when clouds are manifesting - using them as cover? Though sometimes they are so bold as to put them out on a clear day - I've witnessed jets flying side-by-side, same altitude, for probably 50 miles, then it just shuts off and the jets go who knows where.

Evergreen Airlines has long been considered a source for chemtrails and if you check their website under the photo gallery for uses and applications there is a very interesting pic of 4 aircraft flying over a metropolitan area blasting spray into the canyons of the city - the sales pitch is geared to homeland security.

I know a contrail and I know a chemtrail. I'd love for someone to fly up near one of these aircraft while they are emitting their spray - get their craft id# and trace them back to their landing site. Yeah, right. With all the revelations about government experiments on the military as well as civilians over the years, you think this is too far-fetched? Sorry, but you didn't convince this simpleton - I know what I see and no one has yet to prove otherwise with any validity or certainty. They are chemtrails, but certailnly not contrails. Simple science.

reply to post by Chadwickus


In the above post, you posted some information. I think you have posted it twice, but what I wondered is this. Do you know why the number rose so dramatically from yr one of the chart to the next yr?

"Here's a list I've drawn up showing the TOTAL amount (in pounds) of barium, aluminium and their alternate forms released over 10 years.



* 1997 - 41,479,841
* 1998 - 273,161,271
* 1999 - 367,405,383
* 2000 - 381,077,404
* 2001 - 300,338,671
* 2002 - 255,367,294
* 2003 - 252,116,329
* 2004 - 283,923,691
* 2005 - 286,765,468
* 2006 - 272,520,410
* TOTAL - 2,714,155,762



2,714,155,762 pounds or 1,231,120,344.6 Kilograms!

From just two chemicals.

Taken from here"

I mean, it looks like it quadrupled in one year! Thats a major difference.



[edit on 20-3-2009 by hotbakedtater]

reply to post by firepilot


Here is a link to a picture I took today, but I don't think anyone could make out what kind of plane it is from the pitiful zoom I have.

media.abovetopsecret.com...

I took it because I thought it was strange there was a gap in the trail below it, but the new trail is continuous.

reply to post by hotbakedtater



That is explained here:
www.epa.gov...

1998-2002 period. Seven industry sectors were required to report starting with the 1998 reporting year, including metal mining, coal mining, electric utilities, chemical wholesale distributors, petroleum bulk storage/terminals, hazardous waste management facilities and solvent recovery facilities. These industries are included for analyses covering the 1998-2002 period, but not for periods covering years prior to 1998.

reply to post by sensfan



I think that most people that have seen my posts can see that you as well as the others are taken my words out of context and they will read that the words directly after that are...

I do not judge a persons thread on their avatar or title... I will take the information and go with it to find out for myself... Always have and always will.... I may find something that is interesting and then make a comment etc but I won't believe it being fact until I view evidence pointing to it....

so, in the context that the rest of the paragraph states it means, for those that do not understand that you just can't take a phrase and cut it and make something else true, that I do not take a persons identity into my thoughts when I judge a contribution to a thread. That would be like saying that chad there wouldn't have anything to contribute because he use to have a wrestler as an avatar. Some ATSr believe this shows a level of intelligence... I do not. Chad has shown in many threads to be a highly intelligent person. I don't use a persons ATS identity to give me any preconceived idea of a persons mentality.

I hope I've explained that to all those that are in disagreement with what I say.

...a cloud formation is a chemtrail..

This is one of your quotes and I just wanted to show what taking things out of context does. Are you now stating that a cloud formation is a chemtrail?

See how that works... please refrain from doing this guys it doesn't look good you and the ATS community. Very low...

Rgds

reply to post by firepilot


Dude . nobodies really arguing about contrails from ww2 bombers . I would suggest that at altitudes lower than around 2o thousand , fighters running on full boost in a combat situation may blow a little smoke because that supercharged pressure would be fairly hard on piston ring seals . Merlin engines did burn oil and we all know what happens when the rings go on your car .

Running a merlin 'through the gate' for any length of time would certainly cause it to crap out under the strain.

But with so many variables its only a moot point really . The operational cieling of radial engines was lower than liquid cooled .

Originally posted by AllTiedTogether
reply to post by sensfan

...a cloud formation is a chemtrail..

This is one of your quotes and I just wanted to show what taking things out of context does. Are you now stating that a cloud formation is a chemtrail?

Actually, that's what you're saying. We say they are just clouds (albeit manmade ones).

If someone could explain why they think whatever it is that they think is being sprayed manifests itself in the form of a cloud, acting just like a normal contrail would, I'd be very grateful. Because the only thing I can think of that'd do that is water vapour. Could chemtrails be water vapour? Well, er, yes. In which case they'd be clouds .....

Originally posted by Heike
Contrailers:

1. If the Barium, which is consistently reported at unsafe atmospheric levels, is not coming from "chemtrails," then where else could it be coming from?

I think Phage has already answered this, but IMO its coming from low level pollution, most likely industry.

It occurs to me that making people think it comes from aircraft is a good way of diverting attention away from the real cause, but then, I'm always open to conspiracy

2. Please choose one or two of the pictures on this site: Strange Days, Strange Skies and explain what is in the picture if not chemtrails.

Unfortunately to me they look just like normal contrails and my question would be to ask why anyone should think otherwise. These are pictures of contrails produced by normal commercial aircraft flying over England and they look very much the same

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/da2e00629c7b.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/23d0c09e6386.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e053f60431c4.jpg[/atsimg]

Of course, the counter argument is that what I'm seeing are chemtrails ..... to which I guess there's no answer!

But the pictures also look the same as pictures linked to elsewhere in this thread from the 60s, 70s and 80s.

I do concede we are seeing more of them nowadays, but that is simply down to increased air traffic. It is perhaps telling that the increased incidence of persisetnt contrails is now of great concern ie:

www.imperial.ac.uk...

3. Many people claim to be getting sick or having their health negatively impacted after seeing "chemtrails." Assuming this is not mass hysteria since thousands of otherwise reasonable people report it, how could ordinary contrails cause illness?

Like the assertions that chemicals found on the ground came from chemtrails, this is a non sequitur argument. Unless we have a proper study it is in any case merely anecdotal. How many people do not get ill after seeing chemtrails? How many people get ill without seeing chemtrails?


I'll finish by reasserting what I have often said before: if chemical spraying is taking place I see no reason why it would be visible from the ground and so far as I'm aware, there is no evidence of confirmed high altitude spraying being visible and persiting in the way chemtrails are alleged to.

I do not deny chemtrails. I deny that what people see and claim to be chemtrails are chemtrails (other than in the sense that since the water vapour coalesces around particles in the aircraft exhaust, all contrails (like car exhausts) are technically 'chemical trails' of a sort.

[edit on 20-3-2009 by Essan]