Healthcare is 'a privilege...not a right': GOP lawmaker

reply to post by on_yur_6


I won't disagree with you there about the return. All returns on ponzi schemes, especially socialist ponzi schemes, are pathetic for those that enter into them late.

But, we all have our favourite taxpayer funded socialist program, eh?

reply to post by Rockpuck

At least, I have never seen in the Constitution that 20% of my income should pay for the old, the decrepit, and the poor who refuse to buy health insurance.....

It's amazing how people pick and choose what they consider "rights".
Interesting, you talk about the "poor who REFUSE to buy health insurance". I doubt that they are refusing to buy health insurance, they just can't afford it.
No, it is not in the constitution, nor are federal highways, the FDA, the FBI, the CIA, 90 % of the bureaus within the federal government, social security, tax rebates, and just about every other law passed by congress.
Does that mean since they are not in the constitution, you plan on ignoring all of those other things?
Those "old" that you talk about were once young, and had money withheld from their wages to fund social security.
It is also not in the constitution that fine young men and women died to protect your right of speech, no matter how misdirected it may be.
Remember your statement when you are "old, decrepit, and poor".

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Your feelings and opinions matter not to me, it's no constitutional. And you are correct in assuming that most of those agencies are unconstitutional, except for the CIA (states are prohibited from such activities and thus levied to the Federal government), the FBI (inter state crime, granted by the constitution) and the FDA (interstate trade, as granted by the Constitution).

reply to post by Rockpuck

Your feelings and opinions matter not to me, it's no constitutional.

So then, are you going to refuse to pay income taxes, since the 16th Amendment to the constitution was never properly ratified?

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by Heike

 

Just my opinion, and an expression of my frustration with how this type of thread always turns into arguing about who the "bad guys" are instead of considering possible solutions.

You did a great job of describing examples of many of the things that ail our health care system.
I completely agree with your frustration.
You've laid out symptoms of the problem, and identified the major causes- insurance, government regulations and lawsuits. The only thing I would disagree with is your statement about "who the bad guys are".
In order to fix the problems, you must identify the problems, AND the causes of the problems(in fact, the prime movers of the problems).

Insurance: Problem #1-
Cause: Greed
Parties: Everyone- Insurance companies, Doctors, Providers, Patients
Rationale: Insurance companies are "for profit" organizations. They wish to
maximize profits, and cut costs. Therefore, they constantly raise
premiums, co-pays, exclusions, and minimize reimbursements.
Doctors, providers, want to get as much as possible in
reimbursements. So if they would charge $500 for a given
procedure, but know that an insurance company reimburses
$700, they will charge $800, knowing that you'll be happy to
"only" pay $100. The insurance company doesn't care, because
they will just increase premiums for the additional costs.
Patients will go along, because they look at it and say "What the
heck, if I didn't have insurance, I would have paid $500.

Government Regulations: Problem # 2
The FDA is in the pockets of the pharmaceutical
companies. Enough said there.

Lawsuits: Problem # 3
Cause: greed on everyone's part, which results in costs of
lawsuits being passed on in the form of increased costs across the board.

It was not that long ago that we had health care without the benefit of insurance. In fact insurance was unheard of just like a hospital operating for profit was unheard of and the system worked fine.

It was not until BC/BS came along with their innovative concept of health insurance that the whole system came tumbling down.

Get rid of health insurance companies all together they are a plague to health and wellness and their motive is pure greed.

A couple of points that I want to make about this issue:

Sometimes I don't understand the conservative mindset, I hardly think that they can understand themselves though.

- Condemns abortion, but don't care about those already born.

- Would go to court to prevent someone who wants to die with dignity to rightfully do so, instead having them been raped by Big Pharma and their endless cocktails of drugs no matter the torture the person has to endure.

- Yes to George W. bailouts and golden parachutes of a few, no to a measure that would bring some form of help to many.

Thats why the Republican Party lost the elections in 2006,2008 and would keep losing them in the near future, its a party with no vision, so out of touch with the reality of everyday America that at somepoint they look like this guy...

Like many others here have said health coverage might not be a right under the Constitution, then again our founding fathers never could envision a society where healthcare would become the business that today is. Societies are evolutionaries and those who can not adjust or adapt are doom to fail, we can not pretend to live in 2009 of a document formulated in 1787....

Im not saying that Governemnt run healthcare is the best course of action and although I dont see this Obama plan as intrusive as in Canada for instance, I think is a step in the right direction and hopefully the private sector takes notice and start changing the way they operate from within.

But if something we have learn from these bailouts after bailouts (Car industry, financial industry, airline industry, steel industry etc) private sector only come to changes when they have no choice, when is too late, when they have reaped the benefits of mismanagement and greed and have secured golden parachutes and have run their industries to the ground.

Why should we wait for Big Pharma execs do the same? So we have to bail them out later when they have managed to artificially inflate treatments prices so high and have made financial commitments so enormous that then they would become TBTF? (Too Bif To Fail)

[edit on 9-3-2009 by Bunch]

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


"not pay" .. no never.. it's called loop holes silly.

Originally posted by pikypikyWhether the government has the right of ‘cap’ on fast and effective treatment is something to consider in light of how socializing healthcare system didn’t work for the Canadians.

Which particular idiot are you listening to who is saying that socialising the health care system didn't work for us Canadians? Yes, the system is stressed, but every system is, due to global financial shenenigans...which incidently didn't just start in October.

Yes, somebody just died on a gurney in an emergency room because he got 'misfiled'...and that is creating a huge fuss. But that is not the norm...and it is not the exception that proves your point...it is a total abberation.

Our system is not perfect, but I got cured of cancer for $32 out of pocket...as everybody is sick of hearing. I'm sure You cannot argue that private insurance works on the principal of profit. One can deliver medicine much cheaper by eliminating the profit motive from its delivery. No, it's not creeping communism...if anything it's creeping Christianity.

And the dumbest argument going is that it will never work because the government will only screw it up. So take some accountability fer cryin' out loud! If you see waste or crap in the system, report it! Make noise out there...not here!!

Jeez...it's like listening to social commentary by Eeyore. I would take the Canadian system any freakin' day over the American one, and the sooner you folks stop absorbing the Bravo Sierra about how it doesn't work here, the sooner you can start taking care of your fellow Americans like your good Lord intended.

Rant over...thanks for your attention.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
I'm sure You cannot argue that private insurance works on the principal of profit. One can deliver medicine much cheaper by eliminating the profit motive from its delivery. No, it's not creeping communism...if anything it's creeping Christianity.

Well said! But a difficult concept for the Right wingnuts to comprehend.
It's much more satisfying for them to listen to el Rushbo and parrot back
"socialism" or "communism" than deny ignorance.

I find it ironic that many conservatives embrace the Christian religion but
reject the basic tenents in favor of greed and selfinterest.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
I agree with this man.

Rights only exist so long as the method of enforcing that right does not conflict with the natural rights of any other person.

For example, everyone has a right to free will and do whatever they want. However, if they "want" to kill someone else, then they cannot as it interferes with the other person's right to life.

So how does socialized healthcare come into this? Well to provide a "right to healthcare", the government would have to tax other people. Taxes take away money from others, therefore infringing their natural property rights.

To make money requires effort and time, and time is a measure of how long a person has spent of their life. Therefore if you take away someone's property that they have worked for, you are taking away a part of their life. This is why theft and taxes are tantamount to fractional murder.

The "right" to healthcare cannot be enforced without committing fractional murder on some other person (ie the rich man), therefore it should be unenforceable, and therefore doesn't exist.

What complete utter pure unadulterated nonsense.

Shall I state the bleedin obvious to everyone reading......no I won't because if I need to you are too stupid to even understand this reply, so it would be pointless! A jaw dropper.

This reply only insults those incapable of reading!

Originally posted by whaaa But a difficult concept for the Right wingnuts to comprehend. I find it ironic that many conservatives embrace the Christian religion but reject the basic tenents in favor of greed and selfinterest.

To be entirely fair, I have had this discussion on this site before, and have talked to people who identify themselves as caring, generous, moral Americans who simply don't believe it is the role of the Federal Government to deal with the administration of medicine. And/or further, that if people want a better lot in life, that they should simply work harder.

I don't see things that way, and obviously most Canadians don't either. You want the sociological stance, I think it comes down to an American frontier mentality...same reason y'all wanna carry your guns, while we prefer to carry our health cards. In the formative years, settlement down there outpaced the law. Up here, law got there first...helps to define national identity.

That being said, I just can't say that all right-wingers are nut jobs (though Holy Hannah, some sure are!). And it ain't all greed and self interest...some of this opinion is based on carefully thought out principals.

Which is not to say I understand it...

My son-in-law is Canadian. He met my daughter here in the states when he was working for a Canadian company. He lives here now. They filed all the papers and did it all legal - just in case anyone needs to know that.

He still works for the same Canadian Gold mining company and will follow the company when it moves to a new location.

He thinks Americans are crazy out of their minds - - for fighting against socialized health care.

This entire discussion is an oxymoron... Many will say this and that about health care. But it is a necessary when you have a huge gap building between the rich and the poor. Thats it! Bottom Line! Although it may not be covered in the constitution, many things really aren't. yet we still have them. We were originally at our core were suppost to be a republic. WE ARE NOT SUPPOST TO BE A DEMOCRACY!!!

reply to post by FoxStriker


you get sick at work and miss a few days, it just might your company's policy to require you get a doctor's note before you come back to work to prove you weren't just playing hookie.

you kid twists his ankle, you watch him do it, it's not that inflamed and you are pretty sure that he really didn't do much that's not gonna heal itself but he has gym class. you'll give him the benefit of the doubt and admit that running and jumping around on it might not be the best idea. but before the school will excuse him from that running and jumping, he will have to have a note from the school....

society's expectations, such as these, also make healthcare a necessity. if it is a necessity, then steps should be made to ensure it is possible for all to have it...if it's a priviledge, then your job, your child's education shouldn't be relying on you having it.

Why not have socialized medicine? You could always have your own private thing going too. Ever think of that? If you're so intent on paying way too much for healthcare, and like feeding the insurance companies, why not?

Too much money would come from the taxpayer? Because the taxpayer is paying the right amount of money right now, for all the right reasons, for spending exactly where we want it? Right? Wrong.
Sure, it might be a small burden, but wouldn't it be nice not to watch people die from poverty?

Oh, I see. So many people have bought the whole "Socialism IS Communism" thing that's been forced down their throats. Well, logically that means "Conservativism IS Fascism". QED.
Exact match, based on the logic of the first statement.
All conservatives are fascists. Hoisted by your own petard.
Or am I wrong? Can't have it both ways....

What's so wrong about having healthy people in the populace? What's so wrong about caring for others? Why is there such an "every man for himself" scream going up from the right?

Why the hell not?
Will it help people? Yes.
Will the standard of service go down? Probably not. And it wouldn't preclude private health plans.
Will people be generally more healthy? Yes.
Will this increase productivity? Yes.
Does it 'work' in all the countries around the world that have it? Yes.
Are they so far behind the US in productivity, work ethic, wealth? Not really.
I just believe that being vehemently against 'socialised' medicine is basically just driving another wedge between the haves and the have-nots.

Insurance companies want your premiums. They don't want to pay for your damned health care. Doctors/Hospitals do want to take care of you, but they are too busy filling out paperwork to help the insurance companies deny your claim.

Life,liberty, freedom! (So long as the "life" bit doesn't include any pre-existing conditions, eh?)

Originally posted by Badgered1
Why not have socialized medicine? You could always have your own private thing going too. Ever think of that? If you're so intent on paying way too much for healthcare, and like feeding the insurance companies, why not?

Too much money would come from the taxpayer? Because the taxpayer is paying the right amount of money right now, for all the right reasons, for spending exactly where we want it? Right? Wrong.
Sure, it might be a small burden, but wouldn't it be nice not to watch people die from poverty?

Oh, I see. So many people have bought the whole "Socialism IS Communism" thing that's been forced down their throats. Well, logically that means "Conservativism IS Fascism". QED.
Exact match, based on the logic of the first statement.
All conservatives are fascists. Hoisted by your own petard.
Or am I wrong? Can't have it both ways....

What's so wrong about having healthy people in the populace? What's so wrong about caring for others? Why is there such an "every man for himself" scream going up from the right?

Why the hell not?
Will it help people? Yes.
Will the standard of service go down? Probably not. And it wouldn't preclude private health plans.
Will people be generally more healthy? Yes.
Will this increase productivity? Yes.
Does it 'work' in all the countries around the world that have it? Yes.
Are they so far behind the US in productivity, work ethic, wealth? Not really.
I just believe that being vehemently against 'socialised' medicine is basically just driving another wedge between the haves and the have-nots.

Insurance companies want your premiums. They don't want to pay for your damned health care. Doctors/Hospitals do want to take care of you, but they are too busy filling out paperwork to help the insurance companies deny your claim.

Life,liberty, freedom! (So long as the "life" bit doesn't include any pre-existing conditions, eh?)

Star for you Badgered1, my thoughts exactly, and summed up far better than I could ever do. As a non-American on this site who comes from a country that has/had a 'socialist' health system, its replies like a large number in this particular thread that make me stick my head in my hands and moan.

Only problem is my countries new government is the one that loves big money and puts business and employers first, so I dont see what we have left of a 'socialist' health care system lasting to long, especially considering what that same party did to it the last time it was in power.

Pull the 'Socialism is bad mkay!' stick out your damn butt and start caring for your fellow human beings. Rather than bitch about where your tax money goes into such things as healthcare, education and welfare, why not demand from your government that your tax money be used properly so its used efficiently to help society rather than getting shuffled away in bureaucracy or some politicians private yacht. I mean that is what Tax is or should be for right?... the up keep, infrastructure and social funding of society to make it a better place for all?.

I dont know the heartlessness of some people amazes me, and im hardly the most caring person myself.

reply to post by NightSkyeB4Dawn

It was not that long ago that we had health care without the benefit of insurance. In fact insurance was unheard of just like a hospital operating for profit was unheard of and the system worked fine. It was not until BC/BS came along with their innovative concept of health insurance that the whole system came tumbling down. Get rid of health insurance companies all together they are a plague to health and wellness and their motive is pure greed.

Excellent point. A few weeks ago, I was going through old papers and came across the hospital bill, which my mother had saved, when I was born. The entire bill was $250.00 That was during WWII. Last year, I had minor same day surgery. I was in the hospital for about 5 hours. The hospital bill alone, excluding surgeon and anesthesiologist, was over $14,000.00! My parents are long gone now, but I know that growing up, we never had health insurance. We went to the doctor's when we had sore throats, etc. but other than that, not much need for medical. None of us ever took any long-term prescriptions.
I believe that much of the "health care" that is pushed down people's throats (literally), does nothing but fatten the purses of Big Pharma and the Insurance companies.Contrary to what some posters have said, many of the doctors, especially family doctors, don't net much more than the insurance reps that hound them in their offices. A good friend of ours, a family doctor, just gave up his practice, because the malpractice insurance, and the insurance companies had squeezed him to the point of throwing in the towel.
I do think that at least some basic care, such as an annual checkup, generic antibiotics for the proper illnesses, free clinics for basic illnesses.would be affordable in the US budget for those that could not afford it.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I actually do agree with this.. health insurance is the biggest reason for the increase in costs to patients. Among other things, I do not believe health care should be private.. that is to say.. states (not the federal government) should own all hospitals and clinics (exception of private practice). Do this, costs will deflate.. of course this assumes that the whole system doesn't crash being in the care of government, which has a knack for killing all it touches..... it would be important that the FEDS have nothing to do with the system.

I wouldn't mind paying for my neighbors health... honestly.. or his/her retirement..... just as long as I am not paying for people thousands of miles away, under a different state, different government, different taxes.

Apparantly a previous post I made offended ,or was deemed to be offensive by the Mods, and I would like to take a moment to apologise for my vitriol on this subject. I hope that what I said had no lasting effects on anybody here on the thread. On the subject of healthcare in any nation, I have been known to get extremely angry , particularly where inadequacies occur in "developed" nations.
Where doctors are concerned, they get paid an awful lot of money as we know, but what not everyone is aware of , is that there are doctors all over the world who do it because they want money, and not because they want to help people. The companies making tonnes of cash and keeping prices way up when compared with manufacturing costs, are not helping this situation , and are also in part responsible for the fact that the african nations cannot purchase enough vaccines for illnesses there.
The reason things have become this way, is that there are too many incentives for doctors, and drug companies, outside of the ideological benifit of healing the sick.
Now this may sound extreme but this is how I believe it should work.
One day you decide you are going to be a doctor. You leave all your ego, your "needs", and wants behind you, and you study hard , and live like a monk the whole rest of your life, because you want to help people, not because you want to be a filthy rich ,ferrari driving wideboy. The government can house you, and feed you, but you get no luxury, except for the honour that comes of giving your whole life to serving the sick while taking nothing from them.
Now , if that was the way of it , then I would have less to say when some one tells me " trust me , Im a doctor" . And you can say what you want about everyone having the right to renumiration , and you can blab on about how no one would take the job if that was the case , blah blah blah... nonsense. If being a medical proffesional meant that you had studied without distraction, without alterior motive for all your life, then that would make you a saint... a real life balls to the wall saint, and this planet, and its people , need them a hell of a lot more now than we ever have before.