Healthcare is 'a privilege...not a right': GOP lawmaker

Healthcare is

rawstory.com

President Obama is set to convene a summit on reforming healthcare Thursday, and some Republicans are already taking shots. Rep. Zach Wamp (Rep-Tenn) told MSNBC's Tamron Hall that Obama's proposed healthcare plans would be a "fast march to socialism", and that he believes that healthcare is not a right because many choose not to have insurance.

"This is almost class warfare in order for him to be able to say everyone now has health care. Listen, healthcare is a privilege," said Wamp.

The MSNBC anchor was almost taken aback by the "privilege" remark and asked Wamp to explain. "If you have cancer right now do you see it as a privilege to get some treatment?"

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[edit on 6-3-2009 by wolf241e]

Jeeze..talk about a GOP blunder.

What in the hell was this guy thinking???

I see his side of the discussion but come on man..

I think that he deserved the ass kicking that he got from the anchor who was doing the interview. I'm usually on that side of the conservatives but not this time. Learn how to speak man!! Or at least tone down your rhetoric a bit.


rawstory.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

I agree with this man.

Rights only exist so long as the method of enforcing that right does not conflict with the natural rights of any other person.

For example, everyone has a right to free will and do whatever they want. However, if they "want" to kill someone else, then they cannot as it interferes with the other person's right to life.

So how does socialized healthcare come into this? Well to provide a "right to healthcare", the government would have to tax other people. Taxes take away money from others, therefore infringing their natural property rights.

To make money requires effort and time, and time is a measure of how long a person has spent of their life. Therefore if you take away someone's property that they have worked for, you are taking away a part of their life. This is why theft and taxes are tantamount to fractional murder.

The "right" to healthcare cannot be enforced without committing fractional murder on some other person (ie the rich man), therefore it should be unenforceable, and therefore doesn't exist.

www.npr.org...

This perspective is nothing new. Dr. Paul has argued the point multiple times.

If you want alternatives to Gov't run health care, youtube: Ron Paul Health Care. After all, the man was a doctor.

Along with other documents, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, signed by all nations seeking UN membership in 1948, including the US, contains the following article: "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

Where in the Constitution does it say we have to obey the UN? Nowhere. This argument means absolutely nothing.

The way it was said by Rep. Wamp was an unfortunate choice of words, but the basic principle is right: Health care is NOT a right. (As stated in the previous posts)

If one accepts the premise that health care is a right, then one must surely accept the assertion that other more fundamental needs are a “right” as well: Food, shelter, clothing, transportation, education, etc.

You then have created a situation where everyone is entitled – by right – to claim any basic need at no cost or effort to themselves. That may be the norm in communist countries but it is not according to the principles the United States was founded upon.

The essential problem is not that people need these basic necessities of life, but the issue that if they are not providing them for themselves and then expect others to do so. It is a perversion of the notion of fairness. If you have to go to work and provide basic needs for yourself and then the government takes a part of your wealth to provide for another, then your rights are being diminished. They are infringed upon by force to provide a “right” for another. That is not the true definition of a right.

A true right is one that can be exercised without diminishing another person’s right. For example, my freedom of religious expression does not prevent another from exercising their right to choose their religion. That is a true exercise of a right.

America does not guarantee a life free from hardship, deprivation or want. Our founding fathers were wise enough to understand that. They only sought out to ensure that no one would limit your ability to succeed. They never promised that you would never fail. The idea of free health care goes against every principal the United States was founded upon.


[edit on 6-3-2009 by passenger]

reply to post by wolf241e


Healthcare is not a right. It never has been.

I honestly don't know where the sense of entitlement in this country has come from. It sure wasn't there during my grandparents' generation and it was barely there during my parents' generation.

It is sad that so many now feel entitled to things that prior generations have worked hard to earn and afford.

Got to agree with the Rep. The govt does not have a duty to provide free health care. A citizen does not have a "right" to it. Sorry. The govt may have a duty to provide affordable healthcare for anyone who is wishing to purchase but definitely not at taxpayer cost.

Let's approach it this way: What do elected officials do for healthcare? Let's make whatever they do or get available for everyone to purchase. At the same rate.

Originally posted by passenger
A true right is one that can be exercised without diminishing another person’s right. For example, my freedom of religious expression does not prevent another from exercising their right to choose their religion. That is a true exercise of a right.

America does not guarantee a life free from hardship, deprivation or want. Our founding fathers were wise enough to understand that. They only sought out to ensure that no one would limit your ability to succeed. They never promised that you would never fail. The idea of free health care goes against every principal the United States was founded upon.

(bold text is my emphasis)

I believe our founding fathers sought out to ensure, and I quote: "...endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

not to mention, and again I quote: "...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government"

Personally, I don't want Gov't health care, but to go even further, I don't want Gov't to force their unconstitutional "laws" upon myself, nor upon any other free man, as long as it does not tread on another's right. (i.e., on my property I should not be subjected to anyones oversight if I do not infringe on their rights. This would include growing a garden for my own use, using medicines of my choice, distilling liquer, practicing freedom of speech and religion, not paying unfair taxes or bailing out thieves who are not subject to law of the land when caught (red-handed, none-the-less), taking property of others, wehether real, intellectual, or monitary....
I agree that in the public domain there are a seperate set of rules that would ensure other's rights are not restricted, however, this is about the only exception, other than protection from foreign invasion.

I know there are debateable holes in most quick summaries, but this is only to make a point not a precise outline.


[edit on 6-3-2009 by imd12c4funn]

Originally posted by skeptic1
reply to post by wolf241e

 

Healthcare is not a right. It never has been.

I honestly don't know where the sense of entitlement in this country has come from....

I think the overall sense of entitlement comes from our political leadership.

They, themselves, are quite fond, and fervent defenders of the 'entitlements' they have: They get to choose the president, they get to conceal their endless maneuvering within the government as 'confidential deliberations,' they get to engage with international, transnational, and corporate influences, behind walls of secrecy; they account to no-one (unless politics dictates otherwise). All of these extraordinary entitlements, are granted and codified by these people who are beyond the reach of most Americans.

When Mr. and or Ms. Smith need healthcare to provide a healthy standard of living for themselves and their family, they are not asking for John and Jane Doe to pony up some cash. The politician's translate that into the effective method of acheiving that goal, but that is NOT what was requested.

President Obama often stands on a soapbox decrying the inordinate impact healthcare costs are to this country. But he always fails to address the most importnat aspect of that cost...

The price-setters.

Healthcare COSTs too much because SOMEONE is making a killing instead of a living off the service. It IS that simple and transparent.

Just like solar energy, when we are told it would be too expensive..., we never discuss who is setting the price. Why?

I suspect we will find that, like in all things related to profit, the profit-makers are shielded by those who are 'entitled' to sheild it. Since it costs a king's ransom to 'get elected', they can't afford to resist the revenue flow of those who put them there.

THAT's where the most problematic 'entitlement' mentality comes from.

The effort to redefine the 'right' of healthcare (if such a thing can be said to exist) is underway.... but instead of the object being to see how we can make Americans healthy, we're fixed on determining how we can do it - within the paramaters to which the price-fixing profiteers think they are 'entitled.'

[edit on 6-3-2009 by Maxmars]

and the UK gets even more USA health tourists wanting free health care

Originally posted by 44soulslayer

So how does socialized healthcare come into this? Well to provide a "right to healthcare", the government would have to tax other people. Taxes take away money from others, therefore infringing their natural property rights.

While I agree with what you have to say in general, I think you left out some important things in your big picture.

People need to protest the way the health care system is run. People don't just choose not to have insurance in many instances. Even people who do have health care do not have the same benefits they did, say a decade ago. Employers consistantly have to increase the share of health insurance premiums on the the employees.

Why is this? The SERVICE providers, meaning hospitals and Dr.'s charge outrageous fees for their services. That is why it is increasingly difficult for the average Joe working an average job to be able to afford insurance.

Why is it acceptable for an insurance company to have to pay $10.00 for a single tylenol tablet?

Think about it, it's the hospitals who are in bed with INSURANCE companies who created this whole mess.

Everyone has a right to health care, even people that can't afford it.

If you want your insurance company to pay $10.00 for a single tylenol pill because they are paying for it, and not you, then people who accept this type of problem are part of the problem.

We have become so accustomed to entitilements that we now have a society which has come to believe that the world owes them a living. When my grandparents and parents were living through the depression, it was considered shamefule to "be on the dole." Now, it is almost a point of pride for some to be recieving welfare and wic.
I live an an extremely poor area and I have found that even when they are offered a job, they won't take it. They would rather sit around watching gameshows and soaps.
It is time for the working people in this world to stand up and say "Enough!" We don't have to take this any longer. If our Senators and Representatives won't uphold the constitution, the we have the right to recall them, and put someone in office who will do the job the way it is supposed to be done.
It doesn't happen often, so we don't think about it. But it is an option we have, and frankly, must consider.

Health care is a right of every citizen in this world, and those that worked for a system of equality and true justice, would be greatly saddened that so many have allowed a small right-winged group representing the neo-con mindset to dismantle the long slow journey humanity has made in civilized caring approaches. Stop being such sheeps!

reply to post by Blanca Rose


The prices are outrageous, true. Due to a chronic illness, I see how crazy things are on my bills.

But, it is not the government's job or responsibility to provide healthcare to everyone just because prices are high. They already manage Medicare and Medicaid and we see how screwed up they are.

It is not a right. People are not entitled to anything from the government. It is not their job to prop people up and take care of them and provide form them from cradle to grave.

Originally posted by skeptic1 Healthcare is not a right. It never has been.

I honestly don't know where the sense of entitlement in this country has come from...It is sad that so many now feel entitled to things that prior generations have worked hard to earn and afford.

Universal Health Care is a mark of a civilized society, and taxes are the price one pays for civilization. In my opinion, anything else less is barbarism.

reply to post by Harlequin


Bingo!!!! you got it there, I guess America is the only country that can not afford free health care while forcing tax payer bail out big banking institutions.

But hey this America right, we citizens should bend over and take it by the private sector and pay for their failures, but how dare the tax payer have some free health care.

I suggest that people in this board look at what is happening in America and then think about who is been screw here and who is not.

Health is affordable to those that can afford it sadly is the children in the nation the ones that can not.

The GOP lawmaker is obviously a whore to the private medical insurance business and he will do as his masters tell him to do.

Even coming out with stupid statements as the one this thread is talking about.

Remember while he tells you that your health care is a privilege he probably can afford the best health care money can buy and is probably free for him sucking up to big interest butts.

reply to post by mystiq


Don't dare tell that to the misinformed around here because they believe that people do not deserve it anyway.

Still they don't get it, people will get sick people will need health care and the tax payer will be footing the bill anyway but as usual more pricey because is not control in this nation, like its not control of how the nations private sector gouge the consumer.

Originally posted by skeptic1


The prices are outrageous, true. Due to a chronic illness, I see how crazy things are on my bills.

Yes, once again. This is where the problem starts. Everyone is entitled to healthcare that is affordable. I believe services should be supplied on a sliding scale based on a persons ability to pay for them. If you are unemployed due to illness, should you have to suffer because you got laid off due to illness, or a slump in the economy?

But, it is not the government's job or responsibility to provide healthcare to everyone just because prices are high. They already manage Medicare and Medicaid and we see how screwed up they are.

I agree with you, here as well. It's a huge beaurocratic mess, because each state runs medicaid differently. If a person lives in one state, happens to become ill in another, their benefits don't apply. This whole mess needs to be cleaned up, starting with uniform policies for everyone.

It is not a right. People are not entitled to anything from the government. It is not their job to prop people up and take care of them and provide form them from cradle to grave.

My taxes are already going towards Medicare and Medicaid programs, of which I get no benefit. My taxes entitle me to likewise services, even if I am not qualified for them.

reply to post by Blanca Rose


Cost is part of the issue, I agree. However there is no better solution.

Would you suggest that governments step in to limit the amount a company or doctor can charge for their services? Because aside from being unconstitutional and immoral (in my opinion), it will also lead to:

a. poorer quality of healthcare- why bother when there's no competition (ie price cap).

b. poorer quality of doctors - why bother with 8 years of school; 8 years of specialization to reach only a paltry income?

c. less research into drugs, fewer breakthroughs etc. For every billion dollar blockbuster that Merck produces, they have 10 failed drugs that cost them tens of millions of dollars.

In essence, the market is finely balanced to take into consideration all those factors. Imposing a dictatorial cap on costs will inevitably lead to a diminished quality of care.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


That's such a glib phrase... it's actually a cop-out. You're not arguing any factual points, you're just demeaning the other side by inferring that we are uncivilised and barbaric.

I find your collectivist notions of free healthcare unworkable and despicable. Is Cuba a more civilized society? Is the UK any more civilized than the USA? No. Yours is an expensive pipe dream, and it would be more honest to just come out and say it like it is- you want the successful to fend for the weak, the rich to pay for the poor, the able to pay for the inept. I would hate to live in a dysgenic society like that. Entitlement and reliance are the two worst things about my country (UK). If we reverted to a more natural-rights based system we would fix a lot of the long term maladies of our society.

The simple fact is that civilization and forwardness comes from more than just "treating people nicely". In my opinion, America was the most civilized country in the world a few decades ago. The unavailability of socialized healthcare has never been a concern or a hindrance.

reply to post by marg6043


It isn't that I believe people don't deserve health care.

I don't believe that providing health care is the job of the government.

[edit on 3/6/2009 by skeptic1]