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ok, but that’s not what I was doing.
Originally posted by melatonin
I know what you said to start with. And I had no issue with that. I replied by essentially saying when people rely on 'it happens by chance', leaving out the necessity, it gives a false impression. Then you responded with:
Originally posted by JPhish
there’s no other way it happened unless there was intent.
Originally posted by melatonin
OK, what gets me is the reliance on stating the naturalist category 'happens by chance'.
i never said that. It should have been understood after my first post that every time I addressed the naturalistic universe I was acknowledging the laws of nature as being an integral part.
Originally posted by melatonin
Followed by several yes's about it just being chance for a number of well-determined natural phenomena.
Originally posted by JPhish
They don’t have to happen, but they will under the right circumstances given enough time.
Originally posted by melatonin
Which essentially removes necessity.
Some things do appear to have to happen under particular conditions. In the natural order of things it is a necessity that I die, it's natural, unless there is some surprising intervention - perhaps science, I'd depend on that more than miracles.
what do you mean if you take purified water??? Again at this point, you are simply a very complex biological machine capable of responding to a wide array of stimuli. You are the equivalent of an intricate rock. When I push a rock it moves, when I push you, there’s a little more involved. You essentially have no intent or free will because your actions are being dictated by the laws of nature. When you have a thought or take an action, it is nothing more than a glorified sneeze. You have no control. Therefore, by chance you take purified water down to -10’C at 1 am. Essentially, by chance the water solidifies according to the laws of nature. Or necessity as you say.
Similarly, if I take purified water down to -10'C at 1atm, it will form ice. It does have to happen, it is a determined feature of the molecules. Some molecules of water will be bouncing across states, but I essentially know I will get ice.
I don't need to play dice.
Originally posted by JPhish
...
You essentially have no intent or free will because your actions are being dictated by the laws of nature. When you have a thought or take an action, it is nothing more than a glorified sneeze. You have no control.
I guess we just have several posts of crossed wires. Fun and games.
Search me.
Originally posted by melatonin
I can agree that the unknown is 'up for grabs', but I don't hold out much hope for supernaturalism, lol. Has a very poor track record.
Originally posted by melatonin
I do hope all my actions are determined by 'me' and external stimuli.
Just because you are the sum of your biology and experiences does not mean that you have control.
The thought of my behaviour being uncaused and undetermined feels a bit weird - sort of beyond my control and will. I have control, it has been determined that it is so, because I am the sum of my biology and experiences. That is me. And that's the me that acts and decides. My subconscious drives and motivation are a part of me, and my conscious decisons are a part of me. My biology is a part of me, and my experiences are a part of me.
free will is not a form, you either have it or you don’t.
All that 'me' reacts to the external. I have a form of free will. It's not uncaused, though.
Originally posted by JPhish
Originally posted by melatonin
I can agree that the unknown is 'up for grabs', but I don't hold out much hope for supernaturalism, lol. Has a very poor track record.
The track record of naturalism is not immaculate. According to naturalists it is constantly evolving and changing along with their consciousness and reasoning abilities, ergo if you are a naturalist you are caught in the paradox of belittling human logic through your own logic.
Originally posted by JPhish
Naturalist philosophy does leave room for that hope. There is no, “me”, you are simply a complex rock.
Just because you are the sum of your biology and experiences does not mean that you have control.
free will is not a form, you either have it or you don’t.
All that 'me' reacts to the external. I have a form of free will. It's not uncaused, though.
So your logic leads you to believe your logistic abilities are imperfect. That’s a paradox. You forfeit your own (possible) ability of having any insight at all.
Originally posted by melatonin
I wouldn't ever say it was, it's a work in progress. I don't think it's belittling human reason, just accepting it is imperfect. We are stuck with puny senses, and technology is our way of expanding our horizons and reach. As technology develops, so does our understanding.
Me is a complex 'rock'.
There's no other me to have control. I do have more control than an ant. I can represent potential futures and the past, weigh up costs and benefits, make decisions. Even decide to change my mind mid-action.
Yes it’s “you” but you are nothing but a biological entity that responds to stimuli in greater variance than a rock does.
Even when my actions are purely driven by unconscious drives, that's still me - the complex rock, the sum of my biology and experiences.
In that case, I have it. It has been determined that I am the source of my actions and decisions. Me, a complex 'rock'.
Originally posted by JPhish
So your logic leads you to believe your logistic abilities are imperfect. That’s a paradox. You forfeit your own (possible) ability of having any insight at all.
Like you admit, you are just a complex rock, albeit more complex than an ant.
A rock has no control, an ant has no control, and you have no control.
Absolutely none.
But in this hierarchy of physical objects starting with an inorganic rock and eventually going up to you, a complex biological entity. The only difference is, you respond to stimulus in a more complex way. The same way an ant responds to stimulus in greater variation than a rock
Yes it’s “you” but you are nothing but a biological entity that responds to stimuli with greater variance than a rock does.
In that case, I have it. It has been determined that I am the source of my actions and decisions. Me, a complex 'rock'.
No the source of your thoughts and actions are stimuli.
Originally posted by melatonin
Nope, I have to work at making it as best as possible.
I don't forfeit anything. I accept my reason can be flawed and keep testing it against the world to make it as best as possible.
But I'm not a rock. I'm a complex rock. Complex rocks can have control. As I do.
According to your theory, they’re not determined by you, they are determined by nature.
OK. And my responses to external and internal stimuli are determined by me - biology and past experiences.
And part of the stimuli are me.
In sum, I am my biology and experiences. When I was born, I was provided with the foundation of me. Since then, environment and biology has produced the current me, the one that exists in the moment, looks into the past and future.
All my decisions and actions are responses to stimuli, internal and external. But they are always sourced from me or through me. Even my very basic reflexes. When a doctor whacks my patella, I respond. Not a rock. Although it feels like I have no control, it was still my leg responding to the stimulus.
In other situations, I feel the full control of my consciousness, as I sift through past experiences, future consequences and situations, and my current subjective state to determine my next action/decision.
Originally posted by JPhish
Nature is objective. You can break it down any way you’d like. Everything eventually is a reaction to something else. Believing that you have control is merely a reaction according to your philosophy. Control implies that you have the power to change something. But if you are merely reacting to stimuli, you are not changing anything, nature is going about at its’ own accord. As I said before, you don’t play dice, dice plays you.
Your logic leads you to believe your logistic abilities are imperfect. That’s a paradox.
“If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to believe my beliefs are true…and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.”
- Professor J. B. S. Haldane - (Possible Worlds, p. 209)
In order to test something you need to use your logic. Once again you fall back into the paradox.
No they don’t, they merely react to stimuli in a more complex way. If you claim to have control you are acknowledging the supernatural; because control is something that exists outside of the natural system. If you can control the natural system the source of your control must be separate from the natural system.
According to your theory, they’re not determined by you, they are determined by nature.
No, I’ve caught you in another paradox, if you claim to have control; you are acknowledging something exists outside of nature. If you don’t acknowledge that, then control is merely a by product of nature. Therefore your “control” is nature. Nature is controlling your control, therefore you have no control.
Yes your leg responds to stimulus the same way a rock moves when I hit it. Your thoughts and actions do in the same fashion according to your theory. Anything you say think or do is a glorified sneeze.
Just because you “feel” control doesn’t mean that you have it. You’re determining your thoughts by feeling which as we know is irrational to do. For a theory that claims to be so scientific with experiments and testing, your only source of evidence is now FEELING, not rationality.
You’ve been caught in a paradox with your logic.
You’ve been caught in a paradox with your control.
Now the sole basis of your theory is a FEELING. Which according to your theory is just a byproduct of nature.
No, I’ve caught you in another paradox, if you claim to have control; you are acknowledging something exists outside of nature. If you don’t acknowledge that, then control is merely a by product of nature.
If the brain causes mind, then:
1- Brain states will correlate to mental and behavioral states.
2- Brain maturity will correlate with mental and emotional maturity.
3- Changing the brain’s function (with drugs, electrical or magnetic stimulation, or other methods) will change mental function.
4- Damaging the brain with damage the mind - producing specific deficits that correlate to the area of the brain damaged.
5- There will be no documentable mental phenomena in the absence of brain function.
6- When the brain dies, mental function ends.
You’re determining your thoughts by feeling which as we know is irrational to do.
Originally posted by AshleyD
It may be true that evolutionary theory and abiogenesis are not technically connected but it doesn't take a Harvard graduate to realize there are questions for evolution arising from the issues with abiogenesis.
If the law of biogenesis is accurate, then I believe there is some hardcore explaining to be done.
Originally posted by JPhish
So your logic leads you to believe your logistic abilities are imperfect. That’s a paradox. You forfeit your own (possible) ability of having any insight at all.
Originally posted by JPhish
Like you admit, you are just a complex rock, albeit more complex than an ant.
A rock has no control, an ant has no control, and you have no control.
Absolutely none.
once addressed with the question of the origin of life, to automatically hear 'Oh, evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis.'
Anyways, [naturalistic] abiogenesis in itself seems to be a direct conflict of the law of biogenesis. Essentially, life can only come from life.
Originally posted by Welfhard
A virus isn't technically alive as it only fulfils one of the requirements for life; movement (MRSGREN).
Originally posted by Welfhard
Perhaps becuz it doesn't. Evolution explains the diversity of life, abiogenesis explains the origin of life.
Then how it relates to biogenesis.