Radical Islam

Time lord, whats your point, you could look at any nation and list its fighting history. Americans get hung up on Muslim beheadings etc. yet are quite happy when US forces blow the heads off people. The point is that people have been fighting over and because of religion for millenia and its not just Muslims.

There is nothing unique about radical Muslims or any other radicals. They all come out of the same mould, they all have their beliefs and they all want to kill those who don't convert and have done so throughout history so whats new, nothing.

But what is happening is that the perps want oil and gas and guess where it all is, in the ME. So lets stir up Muslim hatred to give us a reason to invade and occupy yet more countries for their natural resourxes. Is that ringing any bells at all, does it sound familiar at all. And when the Idiots that run the US attack Iran and Syria we will have even more radical Muslims won't we or is that too difficult to work out or understand.

reply to post by magicmushroom

yet are quite happy when US forces blow the heads off people.

Nonsense, if that was the situation, we would have wiped out the Middle East long ago. You care nothing about the truth or the realities of this world.

Your only goal is to spread bias against Western nations and encourage violence and murder.

Poet are you serious, just what do you think happens when you drop bombs on people, or fire missles at them, do you think the people just fall down or do you think they are blown to pieces. And just who do you think I am or where I come from.

Its rich when Americans are invading countries and killing millions but then point the finger at others, really rich indeed.

I does not matter if the world or Americans try and get the resources out of these countries that is one issue in itself. I do wish the Americans would stop getting involved because it also looks back at them.

But there are Islamic nations that treat their people badly who are run by extremists without the help of Western influence and they will kill and force people into something they don't like regardless of outside influence. There is the issue of human rights and the people can stand watching in this world and let it go on or people are forced something about it.

Maybe if they get places like Iraq to join the international community it might be able to get people some liberation and human rights. But at the same time it looks like an excuse to self benefit and a farce of an excuse except for Afghanistan.

In my view although drastic I could say if they want to live under these conditions let them, we don't need their oil, let’s move onto free energy and electric cars. If they treat their women that way and kill their people because they turn away from Islamic ideology then let them, who cares it’s their rules. Let them kill the Christian convert who turned his back on Islam, let Islam live with Islam and don't get involved or trade with nations who are not democratic or Christian. If women don't have education and they have to be covered head to toe, so be it it’s their loss.

Lets turn our attention to Africa, help them rebuild and find them water or shall we just let the fanatics there move into more ground for themselves?

Again there is a hypocrisy in Western trade but the rest of the Islamic world is not exactly helping places like Sudan become a democracy either for example because that would be seen as being a traitor to their ideologies.


[edit on 5-3-2009 by The time lord]

Timelord, Isolationism is one answer but at the end of the day we may wish to champion the rights freedoms and liberties of others, idf we do it with love and kindness we might have a chance if we do it with war thn we turn everyone against us and that is exactly what is happening. It is no different all the way through history. Occupide people have always fought back and have used anything at their disposal to do so be it children or old women.

You have to understand that somtimes our actions makes thing worse not better. That we play into the hands of ther radicals and of course don't forget that we always have our own side muddying the waters.

If real Christians were around today they would be preaching their way into these nations of trouble, they should be like saints and preach peace and regardless of a possibility of being killed for it, it might liberate some people along the way, well actually it does happen in Africa still, Christains still go there to preach for the sake of peaceful solutions and a hope to their problems without the forced conversion side of it, if done right people can walk away from it if they wish but at least spirituality and balance of freedom and faith will come out of it. If you force democracy its war and if you force islam or communism its still called war.

Islam does not allow such openness of freedoms that is why its better for missionaries to do than for the armies of this world. Then again people don't like religion so let the world fight it out their way, leave them to it.

[edit on 5-3-2009 by The time lord]

Ya I was gonna say... people should stop preaching religion period.
Let people come to you, if they want. If they dont, well, no one wants to be bothered on the street.

Everyone should preach peace without the religious aspect of it, because it doesnt matter what religion (or lack of religion) you are, everyone can enjoy peace!

What you are saying though is not all true, there is freedom of faith in a lot of the Middle East, in fact there is more freedom there than in China (except for maybe Saudi Arabia, they may be worse).

And for the list of Muslim invasions, there were just as many Christian ones, so I dont see your point. Yes some Muslims converted by the sword. A point I keep bringing back up is that Scandinavia was 100% non-Christian until they invaded and converted everyone at knifepoint!

reply to post by magicmushroom


What does this reply have anything to do with your claim that

yet are quite happy when US forces blow the heads off people.

Yeah, I gotta pretty good idea what bombs do. Do you get a thrill every time some terrorists blows up a bunch of people, cause it seems like you do, you talk with glee about blowing people up? Your continuing support of terrorist, and attempts to justify terrorism makes you the one who loves blowing people up.

Sorry, but Muslim are doing almost all of the invasion of other nations. How many links do people need to provide to prove this. Oh yeah, right, you don't care, you are just here to support the bloody violence.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Red, what do you mean "their culture" tens of millions of Muslims have adopted a western way of life so what is "their culture".

I was specifically referring to the post that was talking about "their culture" being bad (by you) and how this was one of the causes of the problem. I was saying, in a nutshell, even if it is, so what.

If you want this to stop its quite simple, stop kiling them.

So apparently you arrived on earth sometime in the last... week. Because it takes little more than searching to track back to the 1970's if not earlier, official jihadic terrorist acts all over the world and toward America(ns) specifically with written or publicized statements of globalized intent. If you would like to blame this all on the USA's involvement in Kuwait in the 80s or various places after -- I suppose you could blame George Bush retroactively (he will need the aliens and their time travel technology for this I suspect) since God knows he is apparently guilty of everything else on earth -- you can, but I think it's a bit nearsighted.

Do you think the US would be in the ME if there was no oil, gas or opium, no it would not. Those incontrol would not give a toss about Muslims radical or otherwise.

Actually, I htink they would. The difference is that we would have our Marines officially not in there having an officially not a war with the officially not in power warlords, like Central America, rather than having an official WAR that costs a lot more and makes the papers like Iraq.

As an example if Mexico suddenly attacked the US would you not expect the people and the Government to fight back or would you just give in.

Well, it might be better with an analogy that was not humorous.

(That reminds me of some fiction story I once read about a tiny island of starving people and half a dozen got in a boat and came to the shores of America to officially declare war. Then America went and put a military base on their island and gave them money and so on. LOL. Probably remembering it wrong...)

It is like Gaza, which has this same storyline you are using, though I'm not sure if you're referring to that or not, but it's a decent analogy: I am SO SICK OF hearing how Israeli's are at war with Gaza. Man, you fire rockets into my hometown from your hometown, I'm going to blow that hometown all to hell with a lot LESS concern than the Israelis have shown--extensively--for trying to limit civilian casualties. And if you build and store that crap in the greenhouses and in the middle of where the women and children are and they die when the source-location is targeted, that is the fault of the people setting off the rockets and LETTING them do so. Yet all I hear when I browse the internet is Israel is so evil and innocent children died in Gaza, yada yada yada. Let me guess, if only Israel would cease bombing the homes of suicide bombers and missile sources, the whole arab world would just up and love everybody! We could all sing kumbaya and go home and live in peace! The fact that all the jihadist crap was begun and continued before the responses began coming as a reduction strategy, is completely ignored.

It is the failure of the average American who has never had war on his doorstep or occupation of his country to so completely not understand why Muslims feel the way they do.

Are you actually suggesting that the entire jihadic movement is because the USA is in Iraq? Or Afghanistan? That if only we were not in Iraq there would be no terrorism? Could you please go back in time decades and around the world and address the hundreds and hundreds of bloody jihadic activities with this logic? Be sure you cover the fact that a good chunk of the planet is at war in various ways right now and 90-odd percent of those involve muslims.

That doesn't count, of course, all the wars that are not officially going on around Western europe. Because you know, France can burn for days, even weeks, dominantly from Islamic youth, before the news "chooses" to "mention" it, at which point they will only call them 'disaffected youths'. Or, you can be a sniper named mohammed murdering random people around the USA but if the news mentions you, they will use a name you don't use and avoid mentioning, under any circumstances, that you are muslim. You can try to get into a sports arena with tens of thousands of people and a powerful shrapnel bomb in a backpack--set off IMO by remote when the guy ran into the parking lot from security--and the news will try and avoid mentioning that your roommate is islamic, you've been visiting the mosque, you have radical literature all around, etc. In fact given the western media's approach to this situation, you'd think nothing was EVER related to radical islam.

It's merely that the USA is so mean. apparently the jihadists were just acting in advance--and toward EVERYBODY including other Muslims who are "not Muslim enough!"--that this has been going on so long, without regard to more recent years of Western involvement.

The muslims who blew up 250 kids in a school in Russia probably just did that because they didn't like George Bush, ya think. It's all our fault.

And how does one compare a suicide bomber to a pilot who drops tons of bombs on people from a distance.

"Less efficient."

PJ

reply to post by Beltha
You say you're not talking about the moderate Muslims. My question is, "What moderate Muslims?"

After 9/11, when Jerry Falwell stated that we were seeing God's punishment on our society for our tolerance of the gay lifestyle (paraphrased, but that was his message and intent), spiritual and secular leaders everywhere were stumbling over each other trying to disassociate themselves from his ideas. That's how we know that Falwell was fringe. The "moderates" self-selected themselves away from him.

The only people I hear talking about moderate muslims are people who really want there to be moderate muslims, because otherwise, they'd have to admit that the situation is far worse than we've dared admit.

So here's the thing: any moderate muslims out there, give us a shout out, all right? Wave your hands, send up a flare or two... we'll see you. Believe me, lot's of people are looking for you and so far, they're just going on hope and trust that you're really out there because every time there's a beheading or a suicide bomber, the silence is deafening.

We're waiting. Come on home!

reply to post by edgework

Wow... that is the dumbest thing I've heard all week.
I'm assuming you can say this because you dont have any Muslim friends... probably because you try to avoid them?

I would say something like "how many Muslims do you know who cheer when they see hear about American casualties in Iraq?" but sadly your answer would be inaccurate, because it is default zero, seeing as you dont know any period. Because if you did know any you wouldnt have said what you did.

Im ashamed of people like you in this thread, go out and meet some people before you criticise them as a whole. Every Muslim I've ever known has been peaceful and protest ANY act of war.

Your analogy is like saying "when some radical Christian bombs an abortion clinic and kills an innocent passerby, why dont the entire population of Christians storm the streets and denounce him?" Because they dont need to be publicly vocal over people they have no control over. Just like the Muslims. Do you think if the moderates tell them to stop, the extremists will simply drop their weapons and change?? Anyone who has extremist ideology isnt going to change overnight because someone has an opinion of them. Get a clue.

I have Muslim friends, although they moved back to Turkey, and I moved to Oklahoma, in a small town where it's hard to find a catholic, never mind a jew, and forget a buddhist, and the new-agers hide, so it's not surprising I haven't met any Muslims here.

They were beautiful people. They introduced me to the story of the man who's become of my personal heroes, Ataturk.

Of course, Turkey is western culture, and I don't mean like Muslims who live in the west as most are actually leaned on to avoid that culture, I mean like turkey which really IS a western-influenced culture, although that is changing.

My friend sends me emails absolutely terrified about the horror her country is becoming. She's an engineer. When I met her in a park, she was wearing shorts and beating her husband at tennis. If things don't go well she'll be living in a veil, or worse. Life sucks there and it's getting worse.

Because of radical Islam.

Wait, wasn't that the topic of this thread??

As for moderate muslims -- there are absolutely bazillions of peaceful muslims, but since few of them are saying anything about -- nor seeming to prevent the chronic growth of the radicalism and violence and segregation and this includes in North America and Western Europe as well -- then they become, by their own choice, invisible.

They don't seem moderate, they seem nonexistent. Which I think was the point of that previous post.

Best,
PJ

Poet stop telling lies, just point out where I said I side with terrorists, or talk of blowing people up and also stop discussing me the thread in question is Radical Muslims not me

reply to post by poet1b


I think you are being a bit misrepresentative of magic mushroom by assuming that he literally thinks this is that is the case and then assuming that he is more inclined to Radical/Extreme Islam than America...

Originally posted by magic mushroom
Time lord, whats your point, you could look at any nation and list its fighting history. Americans get hung up on Muslim beheadings etc. yet are quite happy when US forces blow the heads off people. The point is that people have been fighting over and because of religion for millenia and its not just Muslims.

By citing 'any nation and its' fighting history, magic mushroom is referring to implicit acceptance of wartime atrocity by the complicity of the nation's populace.

I am quite bored reading your misdirected animosity towards a fellow member so pleaseconsider that you may have misinterpreted his point.

I thank you in advance.

Red, read up on some history and again where did I say America was responsible, I was merely making reference to its recent activity in the ME. And if you want details how about going back to the crusades. America was not around then was it but Europe was engaged in holy wars with the Muslims. The simple facts are that we are all as bad as each other yet some people try to make others seem worse when they are not.

If you want a holy war then go and fight it, its what man the dumb beast has been doing for millenia. You talk as if radical Muslim actions are done in isolation with no reason or rhyme when we are giving them plenty of reasons to attack us. How many Muslims attacked America on 9//1 NONE, how many Iraqis attacked, NONE how many Afganis attacked NONE.

How many Iraqis have died because of the US, millions and the dumb people cannot see why they are being attacked. Well its simple when you invade and occupy other peoples countries irrespective of race colour or creed they have a habit of fighting back using whatever means at their disposal usually terrorism against soft targets. So whats new, nothing, our actions creat a reaction simple as.

Red, your point of asking why arent moderate Muislims doing anything about the radicals who does. Would you care to point out just one historical incidance where the moderates have fought back againt, the radicals, tyrants, depsots etc. It does niot happen and when people try they all end up dead. Are Americans mobbing the corrupt US government the parasite banks ot the multinationals no they are not. Did the greater mass of the German people fight against the Nazis no they did not. And the reason IS, well most peace loving law abiding citizens don't go around attacking people.

Thats why its always easier for a small but dedicated group of people can overthrow the masses, its wolf against sheep every time and for a while the wolves have it. It is far too simplistic to state why don't the moderates do something about it, yes I agree that they should but they need help and asssistance in doing that but that does not happen. And whats even worse there is plenty of well documented evidence that Western Governments use form supply and equip many terrorist organisations for there own ends be it fighting the Russians or destabalising a country. That just makes matters worse, we creat a beast and then let it lose.

reply to post by magicmushroom


I'm doing unto you as you have done unto me, and numerous other posters on these forums. Misquoting people is your number one technique, which is why you have zero credibility.

When you start backing up all of your misquotes, I'll start showing where you have betrayed your true feelings towards terrorism, which you support.

reply to post by TrustMeIKnow


Personally I am bored by people like you and MM who constantly misrepresent others on these boards, and support the racist opinions that MM has made here repeatedly. This post of yours is a good example of how poorly you fail to analyze what is being said.

You claim

By citing 'any nation and its' fighting history, magic mushroom is referring to implicit acceptance of wartime atrocity by the complicity of the nation's populace.

When MM clearly points out the U.S.,as he does over and over again trying to paint the U.S. as the root of all evil. Clearly MM goes out of line when he makes this statement.

Americans get hung up on Muslim beheadings etc. yet are quite happy when US forces blow the heads off people.

Do you really think all Americans are quite happy when U.S. forces blow the heads off of people?

Or is it that you just didn't bother to think this statement through.

reply to post by magicmushroom


UMMM, reality, YES, many, many Americans openly protested against the Iraq war, and plenty of other wars as well. Remember the Mother of a soldier killed in action camping out in front of GW's ranch? Protesting the actions of our government is a common practiced front in the U.S.. And, large numbers of people actively protest against religious extremists in our country as well as those abroad.

No, the extremists do not always win. The real reason Western nations are so much more successful than Middle Eastern nations is because moderates in the West stand up to, and defeat the extremist when they emerge in our midst. Hitler lost, remember?

Originally posted by poet1b
Personally I am bored by people like you and MM who constantly misrepresent others on these boards, and support the racist opinions that MM has made here repeatedly.

Evidently you are not familiar with my post history as I neither make an effort to misrepresent other posts or support rascist opinions.

This post of yours is a good example of how poorly you fail to analyze what is being said.

I stand by my interpretation. And I do not claim any support or endorsement for the views of magicmushroom, however, if disagreement is to be had and subsequent argument ensued then it may as well be predicated on accurate impressions.

When MM clearly points out the U.S.,as he does over and over again trying to paint the U.S. as the root of all evil. Clearly MM goes out of line when he makes this statement.

He indirectly suggests that the U.S is an imperfect entity and has potentially helped provoke terrorist activity. Which is a potentially accurate observation. I'm not saying I agree with it, I am saying that was the likely intented communication. Your inferrence to an immediate absolute of his "anti-U.S." position is fallacious and your subsequent posting in condemnation has only exasperated the discussion and prevented rational discourse.

Do you really think all Americans are quite happy when U.S. forces blow the heads off of people?

Do you really think that all Americans are disagreeable to that? We can't even say all American members of ATS are disagreeable to it.

Or is it that you just didn't bother to think this statement through.

With all due respect, I think you have failed in thinking this through.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by TrustMeIKnow]