Question for Unbelievers...

reply to post by Trolloks

Which means you are using christianity for your own selfish ego instead of what the message actualy is, to share and help people you care and love for, instead of just yourself. And when it states that, it doesnt mean help all humanity, you think jesus would put that much pressure on people?! If he was the messiah, he would know that would never work, and it would cause too much dissagrement and rage that it will infact to the opposite in the end and cause seperation of humanity instead of a unity.

It gets into a form of counterfeit love. An illusory love. Jesus was actually quite emotionally unavailable at times. He did not always show unconditional love, for that is truly dysfunctional.

Interpretations are interesting, right? Yet, may not be based on reality.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


interperations can be dangerous, look at jihad! lol.

I do believe the bible has some good moral meterial, but be careful how you take it. I agree with you about the KJV bible, there are better sources than that.

people seem to forget too easily, that it is King James VERSION. There we have it, reading someone elses version/interperation. As bill hicks once said on the subject, "I think what god meant to say...."

Originally posted by Trolloks
I know this may sound realy pessamistic, but you cant love me, or worry about me.

To put it down to simple fact:

1. You dont know anything about me (aka, anything to do with my identity. Name, hair colour, sex, etc)

2. It is impossible to love the whole entire human race as inderviduals. You at least need to know how many there are first to make such a claime, otherwise you love the human race as a whole, therfore yo udont love me, you love what i am apart of.

3. How can you worry about me?? If you worried about everyone on the earth you would be doing nothing else but worry. You dont truly worry about me, and i would be freaked out if you did.

To sum it all up. You can not possibly love and worry about every indervidual in existance. You use the word "love" for the stregnth the word has, however the strength has gone for it being over-used so oftern. Love is one (is not The) strongest word of compasion in the english language, and you say you have that compasion about someone who you know nothing of?? Its not biologicaly/mentaly possible.

The sad fact is that the people who use your argument (im sorry for you going to hell, and i worry because i love you, as i love every human) are useualy the christians who say all that to prove to their ego's that they are a good christian and will get a garanteed place in heaven.
Which means you are using christianity for your own selfish ego instead of what the message actualy is, to share and help people you care and love for, instead of just yourself. And when it states that, it doesnt mean help all humanity, you think jesus would put that much pressure on people?! If he was the messiah, he would know that would never work, and it would cause too much dissagrement and rage that it will infact to the opposite in the end and cause seperation of humanity instead of a unity.


end of rant.

If I have an opportunity, with someone who will listen, I will try to bring them to Christ. That is love. Of course I can't love every individual, but we are communicating right now, and your unbelief makes me feel like I should at least try. What's wrong with that?

Will it get me into heaven? I doubt it.

Will Christ get me to heaven, without good works, I believe so (not all believers do though).

Do you think I claim to be better than you or something. I'll be the first to say I've done almost every drug under the sun, I've stolen, lied, cheated, drank, etc..

All I can do is try to do better.

Not sure of the Christians you are used to talking to, but the last thing I was thinking of is my ego.

Like I said all I could do is try, don't quote me and question me, and I'll never respond to you again. I'm not forcing the issue that's for sure.

God bless

Please note, that I only asked a few simple questions, I didn't start the debate.

But if you want to debate Christianity and make assumptions of course I'll defend myself and my beliefs.

Make a new thread for that, I'll be happy to join in.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Originally posted by B.A.C.
A simple question:

When you were a child, did you believe in God?

I mean before you learned anything about religion or the bible, did you believe in God, at least as the creator of the world?

If yes, explain in which way.

If no, explain why not?

Unbelievers. I am shocked.

I have a few questions for you, but I don't need your answers. You should ask these questions to yourself:

1. Why do you need answers?
2. Do you need support, confirmation, reassurance, or whatever in your belief?
3. If you were the only person who had the belief you have, would you feel less secure?
4. Are you intolerant? If Yes then why? If No, then why not?
5. How can you make sure you are right in regard to point 4?
6. No matter how many "unbelievers" (to use your words) there are, if you know the truth, why bother?

PLEASE NOTE: I would have seen nothing extraordinary in your questions, but with the emphasis put on the word "Unbelievers" puts your entire questioning into a different and negative light.

Here are is my answer to your questions:

I never held on to organized belief systems and I never had any need for that. I have always had encounters with spirits. There is rarely a person who would believe me, but I don't seek reassurance from others or confirmations. That is one major difference between someone who knows and someone who beliefs.

Positive thoughts and peace to you my friend.

Greetings

[edit on 2-3-2009 by TheWriter]

Originally posted by TheWriter

Originally posted by B.A.C.
A simple question:

When you were a child, did you believe in God?

I mean before you learned anything about religion or the bible, did you believe in God, at least as the creator of the world?

If yes, explain in which way.

If no, explain why not?

Unbelievers.

I am shocked.

I have a few questions for you, but I don't need your answers. You should ask these questions to yourself:

1. Why do you need answers?
2. Do you need support, confirmation, reassurance, or whatever in your belief?
3. If you were the only person who had the belief you have, would you feel less secure?
4. Are you intolerant? If Yes then why? If No, then why not?
5. How can you make sure you are right in regard to point 4?
6. No matter how many "unbelievers" (to use your words) there are, if you know the truth, why bother?

PLEASE NOTE: I would have seen nothing extraordinary in your questions, but with the emphasis put on the word "Unbelievers" puts your entire questioning into a different and negative light.

Here are is my answer to your questions:

I never held on to organized belief systems and I never had any need for that. I have always had encounters with spirits. There is rarely a person who would believe me, but I don't seek reassurance from others or confirmations. That is one major difference between someone who knows and someone who beliefs.

Positive thoughts and peace to you my friend.

Greetings

[edit on 2-3-2009 by TheWriter]

You are shocked? OK please enlighten me as to what people that don't believe in God should be called? Should I have said Heretics? Maybe Imbeciles would have been better?

Let's face it, no matter what word I used to describe someone who doesn't believe in God, some will take offence. Why? I'm not sure, they need to ask themselves why.

Unbelievers says exactly what I meant, without insulting anyone.

I asked this question because I was curious about the data, quite simple really. The response has been kinda funny really. A couple simple questions and a lot of heated responses.

What is knowing, if not believing? I can use your vernacular then, I KNOW what I believe, and I don't feel insecure about it at all.

No need to seek reassurance from fallible man, I totally agree with you. That isn't what this thread is about.

God Bless

Originally posted by B.A.C.
What is knowing, if not believing? I can use your vernacular then, I KNOW what I believe, and I don't feel insecure about it at all.

B.A.C., it makes no sense to discuss this topic with you, because you are obviously not aware of the difference between "belief" and "knowledge".

Here are two examples:

1.)
You are sitting in front of a table. Someone puts a pen on the table and you can see it. Imagine you are sitting there for 10 minutes. You are continuously looking at the pen. This is knowledge. You know the pen is there.

2.)
You are sitting in front of a table. Someone puts a pen on the table and you can see it. But then you get blindfolded. Imagine you are sitting there for 10 minutes. You are being told that the pen is being taken away. You have no way of knowing if the pen is still on the table, but you think it is. This is belief.

... but about these two examples, it gets all a bit more complicated if we assume that all is a hologram. LOL

You are most likely to attack my statement now. Feel free.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
I can use your vernacular then, I KNOW what I believe, and I don't feel insecure about it at all.

Wrong. It is not vernacular. Belief and knowledge are two different words, but people use them very often interchangeably. But just because many make the same mistake, doesn't make something right.

Regarding the enlightenment you asked from me, I assume that you wouldn't want enlightenment from a fallible man, right? Therefore I will stop here.

In case you see this is a personal attack, then I can reassure you that it's never been my attention to attack. I still assume that this is a discussion forum. So we are all entitled to have different opinions, right?

Greetings and peace.

PS: oh hell ... here a quick edit:

In regard to the word Unbeliever ( the dictionary says):

un·be·liev·er (ŭn'bĭ-lē'vər) Pronunciation Key n. One who lacks belief or faith, especially in a particular religion; a nonbeliever.

Just read the definition .. can you see these words "who lacks belief..."? It's got quite a negative connotation, right?

[edit on 2-3-2009 by TheWriter]

If I have an opportunity, with someone who will listen, I will try to bring them to Christ. That is love. Of course I can't love every individual, but we are communicating right now, and your unbelief makes me feel like I should at least try. What's wrong with that?

That is not love, that is preaching or forcing your belifes upon someone. That is exactly what a salesman does. If a car salesman has an opputunity to sell a car to someone who will listen, they will, is that love??

I said it before, love is a word that gets thrown around too much that it has lost meaning.

Also, why does your belife make you feel as if you should try and make me belive in your belife?? You shouldnt, you have no right to. If i went up to you and asked about your belifes, then you are more than welcome to give me information on your belife, than i should make my own decision wheater or not i belive.

For the post a few ones up, i belive the "unbeliver" is named athiest

Originally posted by B.A.C.
I mean before you learned anything about religion or the bible, did you believe in God, at least as the creator of the world?

There was never a time "before I learned about religion". I was indoctrinated right out of the womb. I don't remember God, religion and church not being the center of our lives, because I was taught about that before I walked or talked or had the opportunity to think.

So, yes. When I was a child, I believed in God. Because I was taught to.

reply to post by whaaa

Here is a website that compares the Islamic Jesus, with the Christian Jesus.

It is a very interesting comparison, the writer does give some supporting evidence for the Bible's accuracy, if you are interested.
article here

There are several instances in the Bible where prophecies were given where they came true many years after the prophecy was made.

Do some research before discounting it, the time is now to check it out because according to the Bible, we are probably in what is known as the last days.

One of the prophecies that came true is the country of Israel coming to pass within a single day, which was on May 15 1948, when documents were signed to give the land to the Jewish people.

The creation of Israel is known as God's "timeclock" and it was stated that the generation that saw Israel being created would not all pass away before Jesus comes back the second time.

I was brought up in a highly conservative Christian family. I went to Sunday School, and I learned all the hymns by heart (I was in the choir). I colored little pictures of Jesus and doves with olive branches, and had memorized almost every popular bible verse in the New Testament at age 10. At 12, I knew all of Revelations, and at 16, I led an after-school bible group for my classmates.

Some would have called me a "fanatic". However, even through all of this "brainwashing" I still never believed. I never believed in God or a heavenly afterlife with golden gates and long passed family members. I was not afraid of death (as most children aren't), and even can recall asking my mother what "nothingness" would feel like. Of course, she was at a loss for words.

Although, I guess since I'm somewhat Agnostic now, my experiences wouldn't really count in this thread...

Not trying to be a bother here (and certainly, while I know I am butting in, my intention isn't to anger anyone), but reading your post, Trolloks, I felt the need to try and provide a different point of view.

Originally posted by Trolloks
That is not love, that is preaching or forcing your belifes upon someone....

Originally posted by Trolloks Also, why does your belife make you feel as if you should try and make me belive in your belife??

From the Christian point of view, they believe that all those without Christ will suffer a terrible afterlife, and eventually be destroyed in the "lake of fire" along with Satan. Whether or not this is true is not the question. The fact of the matter is, these people believe it.

Now-- I want you to imagine something for a moment. If you, for whatever reason, thought that... let's say perhaps a Terrorist were planning to plant a bomb in Disneyland. Would you not try and warn someone as to what was happening? What if, perhaps, the police or even the FBI didn't find your warning credible? What if, perhaps, your family were planning a trip to Disneyland on the date you knew to be the most dangerous and they thought your warning was just wacky? What if, standing in the parking lot, you saw scores of people walking inside the gates, oblivious to the danger, even while you were screaming for them to stay away? What would your reaction be, I wonder?

For them, these warnings are love. They are concern. I think it's important for "unbelievers" to understand that fact.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by Rollzio]

Originally posted by Rollzio
For them, these warnings are love. They are concern. I think it's important for "unbelievers" to understand that fact.

I think it's safe to say that we do. But while I appreciate your analogy, let me put forth one of my own that is closer to MY perception of what proselytizers are doing.

Let's say one person believes that the Evil Snow Bunny is coming on June 13th of this year to steal all our eggs and ravage our cats. To avoid this terrible outcome, we must pray to the mighty apple gods for 6 days and 10 nights, fast for 2 days, go to the pharmacy every day for 2 weeks and rub the pharmacist's bald head while chanting, "apple, apple, goody-gumdrops"... This will prevent the Evil Snow Bunny from stealing all our eggs and ravaging our cats. And we'll be happy and healthy the rest of our lives.

Not quite as realistic as the terrorist at Disneyland story, which could actually happen. But see, the proselytizer believes it in his heart (about the Snow Bunny) and he's just telling us out of love and concern.

I'm not saying that I think proselytizers are nuts. I just think they should realize how their story is coming across to "unbelievers", specifically, atheists.

reply to post by Rollzio


Well, how many scenarios can you try and squeeze in?? First of, if the FBI and whatever didnt take any notice, i would say screw you and leave it.
You cant come back and say to me, "well you just let 100,000 people die", no, i didnt, i gave a warning, they didnt listen, there problem. Just becasue i knew the problem, doesnt mean its my fault they died.
The family thing, thats completly different. I have friends who are christians and who are jehovas, and they respect me by not forcing their religion upon me, and i respect them by not forcing mine upon them. If it was family i would do everything in my power to stop them, but thats my family, not random people i never met or know.
And the gate one, i would shout, but if no one listend, i would get the hell out of there myself, yea i might be a b*****erd, but hey, im garrente most people would do the same as i just said, even if they say they would help and drag every single one, the truth is, natrual instinct gives us the survival instinct. The end of the day, its every man for himself.

reply to post by Trolloks


I'm a Christian, but I do agree with your post. The bible is full of warnings to believers. Where alot of people go wrong is the bible is for believers not unbelievers. Since I'm saved by grace, I'd be extremely hippo critical to expect you to live up to laws I couldn't, and force those laws that isn't even meant for you(yet).

Originally posted by TheWriter
B.A.C., it makes no sense to discuss this topic with you, because you are obviously not aware of the difference between "belief" and "knowledge".

Here are two examples:

1.)
You are sitting in front of a table. Someone puts a pen on the table and you can see it. Imagine you are sitting there for 10 minutes. You are continuously looking at the pen. This is knowledge. You know the pen is there.

OK

2.)
You are sitting in front of a table. Someone puts a pen on the table and you can see it. But then you get blindfolded. Imagine you are sitting there for 10 minutes. You are being told that the pen is being taken away. You have no way of knowing if the pen is still on the table, but you think it is. This is belief.

If I was told the pen was being taken away, yet I was blindfolded, why would I necessarily "believe" it was still there?

Regarding the enlightenment you asked from me, I assume that you wouldn't want enlightenment from a fallible man, right? Therefore I will stop here.

Why stop now, you're on a roll LOL I assure you I'm just as fallible as you.

In case you see this is a personal attack, then I can reassure you that it's never been my attention to attack. I still assume that this is a discussion forum. So we are all entitled to have different opinions, right?

Absolutely.

In regard to the word Unbeliever ( the dictionary says):

un·be·liev·er (ŭn'bĭ-lē'vər) Pronunciation Key n. One who lacks belief or faith, especially in a particular religion; a nonbeliever.

Just read the definition .. can you see these words "who lacks belief..."? It's got quite a negative connotation, right?

If you lack belief, it's a perfect description, nothing negative about it.

I would have used the word Atheist, but unbeliever is a better description, because some religions, such as Jainism and Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god. Yet, they are not Atheists.

See my logic now? I'm not trying to label anyone negatively, just correctly.

Originally posted by Rollzio
Not trying to be a bother here (and certainly, while I know I am butting in, my intention isn't to anger anyone), but reading your post, Trolloks, I felt the need to try and provide a different point of view.

Originally posted by Trolloks
That is not love, that is preaching or forcing your belifes upon someone....

Originally posted by Trolloks Also, why does your belife make you feel as if you should try and make me belive in your belife??

From the Christian point of view, they believe that all those without Christ will suffer a terrible afterlife, and eventually be destroyed in the "lake of fire" along with Satan. Whether or not this is true is not the question. The fact of the matter is, these people believe it.

Now-- I want you to imagine something for a moment. If you, for whatever reason, thought that... let's say perhaps a Terrorist were planning to plant a bomb in Disneyland. Would you not try and warn someone as to what was happening? What if, perhaps, the police or even the FBI didn't find your warning credible? What if, perhaps, your family were planning a trip to Disneyland on the date you knew to be the most dangerous and they thought your warning was just wacky? What if, standing in the parking lot, you saw scores of people walking inside the gates, oblivious to the danger, even while you were screaming for them to stay away? What would your reaction be, I wonder?

For them, these warnings are love. They are concern. I think it's important for "unbelievers" to understand that fact.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by Rollzio]

Exactly, I also said I wasn't pressing the issue, and never mentioned it again. Except in response.

Originally posted by HooHaa
reply to post by Trolloks

 

I'm a Christian, but I do agree with your post. The bible is full of warnings to believers. Where alot of people go wrong is the bible is for believers not unbelievers. Since I'm saved by grace, I'd be extremely hippo critical to expect you to live up to laws I couldn't, and force those laws that isn't even meant for you(yet).

Not sure which Bible you read but:


M't:9:11: And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
M't:9:12: But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
M't:9:13: But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I never did believe.
I remember sitting in 1st grade class @ St Williams, thinking that this was nonsense. Especially when I asked questions and got the standard reply of "How dare you question what god does"

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Perhaps I should have used an analogy closer to yours. (It really did make me laugh ) After re-reading my own post, I realize how one-sided it appears. That was not my intention. I agree with your stance on their behavior, and certainly I wasn't trying to excuse it in any way shape or form. However, since for the most part, to them, their religion is as realistic as the keyboard under my fingers, I think a degree of understanding is required by the "unbeliever".

Then again, that's just my opinion.