Those who are Awake have no obligations to those who are asleep.

Originally posted by paperplanes

Originally posted by DangerDeath
reply to post by paperplanes

 

Everything is available in overabundance. From Heraclitus, Anaximandar, Zeno, Buddha, Lao Tze, Eckhart, Spinoza, Descartes, Nietzsche, Baudrillard, Debord, Castaneda, end so on... I won't even mention true artists...

Its in libraries, on the Internet, in peoples' mouth...
But, you have to stop sleeping in the first place.

Are you kidding? It's clear by your confidence that you haven't seen much of the world. For most people, it's a day-to-day effort to gather up more than the equivalent of a few (two to four) American dollars. Life is consumed by working, when that is available, or wasting away in absolute and utter urban or rural desolation. Books rarely play a role in a life like that, even in the lives of the few who are literate enough to read any of the works you might suggest, and internet is even harder to come by. When they are present, they are generally only accessible for a fee. Before you try to blame the victim, you need to understand that it isn't a lack of will or desire but a lack of resources at play in those lives. Understanding more than your own backyard would have proven this to you.

[edit on 1/3/09 by paperplanes]

And what force is keeping those millions of diggers and miners to organize as one and resist the exploiters?

Slaves are all volunteers, with the exceptions of prisoners who did not give their consent to the "order of things".

What keeps people so paralyzed?

Where do the soldiers come from? Policemen? Doormen? Chauffeurs? Clerks? Foremen? It is one and same mass going against itself.

They fall for cheap lures and then they are stuck for the rest of their lives.

And if you try to open their eyes, they stone you.

Don't tell me that the oppressed are oppressed against their will. They are very willing to be oppressed and I have found myself in dire danger many times I have tried to point out some consequences of their behavior. They just hated me for doing that!

Define "awake". Perhaps it is better that you soar among the eagles to avoid being stuck with the turkeys. The notion of arrogance comes to mind. Good riddance.

Originally posted by DangerDeath
And what force is keeping those millions of diggers and miners to organize as one and resist the exploiters?

Did you bother to read my original post? I quite clearly stated that the oppressed indeed often organize into rebel groups. A few saviors appear to "educate" the oppressed, urging them to join the fight against their unknown oppressors (the oppressor is rarely more than an intangible entity known only by description to the fighter). These groups are most often headed by individuals who themselves wish to exploit their newfound soldiers, but that's another matter that is not of primary importance in this discussion. The rising up of the oppressed in a swift motion against leaders is first sparked by those who are awake, who take the initiative to inform the sleeping. That last bit is very important, and something the OP has preached against. This is precisely why I take issue with this "let those who are asleep remain asleep" point of view. For most people in this world, it is of necessity that someone come forth and present the information to them--the information is not present in their natural environment, so desire to learn doesn't matter. You and the OP rail against actively informing the unaware, forgetting that all rebel groups are populated by those who were asleep, who were awakened by someone who cared to find them. It then becomes necessary for me to inquire into whether or not you have any moral opposition to letting uninformed individuals go by the wayside without assistance, when assistance is wholly needed.

Originally posted by manganesejoltIf the hordes need to be brought to their knees for their own good, it's none of our affair.

Ok, you full of it.

IF it is none of your affair then why concern yourself with the good of the horde?

reply to post by paperplanes


I never said "let those asleep remain asleep". On the contrary, I say "those who are asleep want to sleep". So what do you do about that? Forcefully awake them?

There were many uprisings in history, many revolutions. And what come out of it? Awakening?

All that happened was another manipulation of those asleep.

The awakening happens through education, and I mean "individuation" in Jungian sense of word, or "enlightenment" in Buddhist sense of word, or...

All of them need to do that. Not just few enlightened leaders who will then drag them to the promised land.

But for some reason, or lack of energy, they can't do that. They won't do that. And what are you, the awakened one, going to do? Spray them with Ubiq?

If the thoughts expressed by the OP are the criteria for being "awake" I'd recommend he takes some Valium and goes back to sleep. I 'd assume being "awake" involves having a clear understanding of the nature and troubles effecting humanity. The opinion of the OP seem to indicate to me that he's not only fully asleep but possibly in a vegetative state. I'm not religious but i always thought that people like Jesus or Buddha had the right to say they were awake, and we all know what happens to messiahs and social inovators.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by Madmagus]

Again, there is a question of "life and death". It is in the name of life that slaves chose to be slaves.

Living at all cost is philosophy of slaves.

You want people to be free, but you limit their freedom with life and death idea. This is the ultimate mistake.

But if I say a thing against life, I will be ostracized!

So, go ahead, do what you think is good, but you will be doing wrong.

Before people even try to educate themselves, they fall for it, they get married and must work and so kiss it goodbye! Must go into the hole and dig coal. And what they get in return? A feeling of pride! God, they are so proud contributing to the nation's efforts... Sounds familiar?

Slaves are paid with emotions and ideas just like the slave masters. And the most valued idea is the false idea of survival and the feeling of being threatened.

Slaves live the idea of "securing" their families against death.
The ruling class lives by the emotion of being threatened, and therefore they provide "security".

It is all plain in daylight, but alas, you don't open your eyes and completely miss it.

Let's play our music loud enough and wake the angry mob

reply to post by Madmagus


Both Buddha and Christ were about saving from life, and not about "saving life".

The wrong interpretation of their teaching is part of the "game". Part of a "dream".

You know, "I had a dream..."

Originally posted by DangerDeath
I never said "let those asleep remain asleep". On the contrary, I say "those who are asleep want to sleep".

This implies a choice, a decision between remaining asleep and achieving some version of an awakening. This can only be so if the individual has an awareness of the fact that they are indeed asleep; as I've stated before, most are wholly unaware. It is certainly not a matter of "wanting to remain asleep"--there is no want, no choice involved unless new, contrary information is presented to offer an alternative thought about the goings-on of the world.

The awakening happens through education, and I mean "individuation" in Jungian sense of word, or "enlightenment" in Buddhist sense of word, or...

Do you not discern between a spiritual awakening and the material awakening professed by the OP? He is not speaking of any realization of the self, of consciousness, of energies--he is speaking of understanding the government that pulls your strings, your slovenly place in this material, tangible world. Spirituality has no place in his argument. Individual awakening in the sense of consciousness and higher being is an altogether different topic--as I said in my original post, that is freely available, and just about the only thing that is.

All of them need to do that. Not just few enlightened leaders who will then drag them to the promised land.

I think we're both arguing about different things. I am speaking of the awareness of political, governmental, tangible things described by the OP. You seem to be speaking of the individual responsiblity to undergo spiritual awakening. That isn't the subject I am addressing at all.

reply to post by paperplanes


This whole discussion is about whether someone can be awakened by someone else. That is the problem.

I have experience that I cannot awaken anyone.
And I have experienced people trying to "awake" me, although I considered myself already awakened

It is easy to get entangled into such a cobweb.

One must clear things for himself in the first place, and the criteria for being awake is always so evasive.

I didn't read any responses to this post, but it is clear that who ever started it is a slack jawed jack ass. You wake up dude. Do you not get laid enough to feel human? ...don't answer that ...i can see it in your text. Im sorry for you.

reply to post by DangerDeath


I'd argue that they were about improving life, especially for the masses. Prior to Christian values the poor and diseased had no form of representation in their society. I am of course talking about people living in the area thats currently Israel

reply to post by paperplanes

Do you not discern between a spiritual awakening and the material awakening professed by the OP? He is not speaking of any realization of the self, of consciousness, of energies--he is speaking of understanding the government that pulls your strings, your slovenly place in this material, tangible world. Spirituality has no place in his argument. Individual awakening in the sense of consciousness and higher being is an altogether different topic--as I said in my original post, that is freely available, and just about the only thing that is.

The awakening of the OP is simply a cunning thought. It is absolutely not spiritual awakening. He is deluding himself, even though in this case he may simply be provoking a discussion, a simple sabotage to invoke movement.

Provocation is an artists' method to "awake" people, and it is valid and operational in my opinion. But do not stick to contents of the provocation. Rather concentrate on the energy released from it.

So it is "free available", that's my point too.

Therefore, it is a "matter of choice". And this "choice" opens doors to communication with others who have something to contribute.

Originally posted by Madmagus
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

I'd argue that they were about improving life, especially for the masses. Prior to Christian values the poor and diseased had no form of representation in their society. I am of course talking about people living in the area thats currently Israel

In my opinion, this "improving life" leads to spiritual overcoming of life, like "second death". So, Christ invites the rich to: Give up everything he has (facts of material life) and follow in his steps.

But...

That is a difficult thing to do, if you don't have full understanding.
And here is a problem, obviously. You must already be enlightened in order to follow that road. It is a quantum leap, not simply linear historical event.

Originally posted by DangerDeath
reply to post by paperplanes

 

This whole discussion is about whether someone can be awakened by someone else. That is the problem.

I have experience that I cannot awaken anyone.
And I have experienced people trying to "awake" me, although I considered myself already awakened

Again, I think this is a matter of what type of awakening you are speaking of. A spiritual awakening is an individual endeavor, I absolutely agree; a material awakening of the type our OP describes, an awareness of your surroundings (e.g., of government corruption, your worldly puppetmasters) is certainly something that can be taught, something the awake and fortunate have a responsibility to teach if they deem it important. For spiritual enlightenment, particular information is not necessary. A tribe living in the middle of the Masai Mara is no less able to achieve this than a man living in New York City. Worldly awareness, however, requires particular information. Those who are without that information need those who are aware to relay the information to them, to "wake them up". I see now that we are apparently speaking of these two different forms of awareness. I am arguing against the OP's promotion of neglect in material awareness, while you are arguing against me believing that I am arguing about spiritual awareness . Is that correct?

Interesting enough, see how many new members joined exactly this thread

Perhaps it did what was intended by OP - raising the asleep!

Or just gathering the awakened...

reply to post by paperplanes

A tribe living in the middle of the Masai Mara is no less able to achieve this than a man living in New York City. Worldly awareness, however, requires particular information. Those who are without that information need those who are aware to relay the information to them, to "wake them up".

Yep.
There are two kinds of knowledge.
Absolute knowledge, "how things are".
And "Technical knowledge" - knowledge of manipulation of physical world.

The first kind of knowledge is attained through meditation, "mindfulness" and this kind of awakening is completely personal affair. One must decide to do it.

The other kind of knowledge is attained through concrete practice. That's what we learn in school.

If you have the knowledge of how things work, it will be very easy to learn just about any trade in the world without a problem.

The PTB tend to hide this operational kind of knowledge, and their biggest effort is to prevent people from "awakening" to the knowledge of "how things really are".

This is the objective of this "battle" and we have to figure out how to "trick" the asleep into awakening. Because being asleep is a very cozy and a very lazy thing to do

[edit on 1-3-2009 by DangerDeath]

It's both gratifying and amusing to regard the volume and level of discussion these simple, powerful ideas have generated!

A few posts have questioned why I have not returned to this thread...the simple fact is, I had other things to do. It was, after all, a Saturday night.

I dislike the term "Yaleie", but I am, in fact, a Yale man, as was my father and my father's father (I consider this a matter of honour). I do believe in the idea that privilege is ineluctably the father to responsibility. Those of us who are awake have the responsibility of the entire world on our shoulders and we will always carry that burden. Whatever we owe to Culture and Society, however, we do not owe to individual derelicts and slumber-addled somnambulists who make their way through the world oblivious to the myriad mysteries. The life they choose, the life they earn, is the life they will have.

At the moment, I am working on a book and living pretty monkishly. My family has always believed in young men standing on their own two feet and failing or succeeding on their own terms. Despite the numerous accusations that I am spoiled and entitled, I am living on ramen noodles (though the thought of chateaubriand and good caviar still makes my mouth water), and if I can make my own way without needing charity from my family or (heaven forbid!) the government then so can everybody else. It is a fuller, richer, wideawake way to live.

Looking down at the altruism in this post, I think it is futile and some of us have long ago given up the romanitcization of futility. We see the desire of those who do have talent and insight to try to help the "less fortunate" as little more than the ambition to play out a doomed position. There is nothing sadder and duller than self-destruction.

To those of you who have eyes and ears and are enlightened, by all means, stay the course. Things are changing more rapidly than most seem to realize right now.