If Jesus was to return today.

Interesting , if no one has posted this somewhere, however, what must be realised, without care for self, indeed if it requires your question, for you kneeling before the son of god , in your heart you will know, without question, it is he the lord. you will be saved.

if you have to question these things, or have doubts, as to he his is, a suggestion would be to reconnect with him, before the event to save any embarrasement.

Originally posted by octotom
Where did Jesus say that a religion would be formed in his name by a political power? He says that in the last days, many would be deceived by a false shepherd. The certainly doesn't describe Paul! Paul was killed by Rome and Chrsitianity became established quite some time after! Paul never said that he was the father. It is true that Paul wrote a considerable amount of the New Testament, but you are aware that Peter, one of the disciples in the inner three, told everyone that what Paul taught was correct, right? Likening Paul's teachings to the Scriptures:

Well the powers of the earth are political powers, and you know who runs that based on who offers him the earth so long as Jesus worshiped him. I'll search up the scripture for you later, because I can't remember the verses off hand, and will have to go search some of my older posts where I referenced it before. At any rate, all the things I mentioned are what Christians wait and look for today. It's basically going to be those same verses, because as I say - they wait for it to happen when it already happened.

Paul is like a politician. He gives lip service to Jesus, says nice things about Jesus, but then leads people in a different direction. A politician will get up and "Praise America" or whatever your country may be. "Best Country in the world, no other like". They can never run out of good things to say about it. But then they turn around in their actions/fruits and do things opposite of what they praise. What they are doing is putting on sheep's clothing.

This is how manipulation works. It happens in government and in religion. In all places of power and control. Praise the flag, Praise Jesus. Better have on your flag pin or your cross. Can't leave home without that symbolism, if you don't have it on, people might start to question your real motives. Gotta remind them you are a "good guy". All the while walking the broad path of destruction. Leading men to commit sin in the name of god.

For example, he praises Jesus, but then he says things like - through me you are begotten, which means Paul is saying he is their father. But Jesus says call no man father, and that only that which is begotten from above(from the father) can return. You must be born anew and be born of spirit. This is John 14:20.

Jesus puts the importance on the path and keeping the commandments, Paul puts the importance on Jesus. Tell me, why does one need Paul in order to understand Jesus? John 14:26 and other places says the holy spirit will teach people. But apparently we also need Paul.

Paul even changes his story about his vision with Jesus multiple times.

www.interfaith.org...

I know a fake politician when I see one. Paul does all the things I was shown not to do. I can keep on going listing more things.

The Roman Empire forcing people to join Christianity was a bad thing because it caused what eventually became the Roman Catholic Church to stray and adopt pagan ideas, since you didn't have to be a Christian to join. It also forced on people the allegoricalization of the Scripture, which is a pity.

And all of the understandings are based on what the most powerful empire of the time wanted. There is a reason they choose so many of Paul's books, but rejected books writing by disciples. One of the most interesting things they left out, which I think is pretty telling in itself is the book of Enoch.

Jesus didn't throw a stone because he was teaching a message of forgiveness. Since he lived a perfect life, while he was here he had every right to just kill everyone. Don't worry though, when he returns, he will judge all those who sin.

You judge yourself. Or should I say, you are judging yourself.

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[edit on 22-2-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


You can say what you want about Paul, but you're neglecting the fact that the Apostles accepted what Paul was teaching! Paul was more or less interogated when he returned from being taught in Arabia and he passed. Then, in the passage I put in earlier, Peter even called Paul's writings scripture! That's huge! As for the details of his conversion being different retellings, have you ever told a story the small way each time? The differences in his recountings are minor anyway.

Yes, Paul did emphasize Jesus. Jesus emphasized Jesus, too. The most famous verse of the Bible, John 3.16, says that believing in Jesus is the way to heaven, not following rules and the Law, "...that whoever would believe in him would not perish...". In Acts, Peter echos this as well, "whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved!"

People have never been saved by following the law, even in the OT times. God said to the prophet Habakkuk, the just shall live by faith. Not, the just shall live by the law. Having faith and trust in God has. Abraham was justified by his faith, too.

The reason that the book of Enoch was left out is because it wasn't considered by the Jews to be apart of the canon. When the "Christian" Bible was being put together, the Tanahk was more or less brought over as the Jews recognized it. The 27 (39 in the Bible as we'd know it) books in the OT were recognized by Jews to be God's word.

Enoch never was part of the Jewish canon because it was written during the intertestamental period and during that time, many books had the names of famous characters just thrown on to get people to read it. It's apocalyptic literature and was more for entertainment than anything else, really.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by badmedia

 

You can say what you want about Paul, but you're neglecting the fact that the Apostles accepted what Paul was teaching! Paul was more or less interogated when he returned from being taught in Arabia and he passed. Then, in the passage I put in earlier, Peter even called Paul's writings scripture! That's huge! As for the details of his conversion being different retellings, have you ever told a story the small way each time? The differences in his recountings are minor anyway.

Actually, they rejected him at first as well. The story says they eventually warm up to him, but I am skeptical. Paul does exactly what I am told not to do, but when I read Jesus I see the father I know in him. Paul's entire story/journey is filled with inconsistencies.

The story of my experience and vision has been the same way each and everytime. Because my experience and vision hasn't changed. These aren't small little details that Paul changes, it's the entire story. Oddly enough, it also appears to go from being out of line with what the bible says is the true way at first, to getting more and more inline over time, probably after people rejected him he changed his tune. Just like a politician making up lies.

Acts 9
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

In this passage, Paul see's a light. The men hear a voice but see nothing is claimed.

Same book, later on into it:

Acts 22

6And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

10And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Now the men see a light but here no voice?

Lets continue on. Same book

Acts 26

13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Now he is the only one who sees it, it speaks with a hebrew tongue, he isn't blinded for 3 days and apparently the men don't hear or see anything at all.

But I know he is a liar from my own experience. I had a vision and in my vision the room I was in was completely white. And yet, the father was there in a golden light, like a figure made out of the sun, with no destinct features, and it was very bright. But my eyes never hurt, and I was never blinded. Why? Because it is a vision and it happens within the mind's eye, not with your 2 eyes. As the bible says it will happen.

Numbers 12

5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

Surely you wouldn't have me believe that Saul is faithful in all the houses of god? By the 3rd time he tells the story he is more in line with the bible. Probably because of people knowing he was full of it because of numbers.

There is much more. Here is a book someone gave me a link to, it is very interesting. I didn't believe Paul right away because as I say, he does exactly what I was told not to do. Jesus does what I was told to do and tells of what I was taught.

www.interfaith.org...

Yes, Paul did emphasize Jesus. Jesus emphasized Jesus, too. The most famous verse of the Bible, John 3.16, says that believing in Jesus is the way to heaven, not following rules and the Law, "...that whoever would believe in him would not perish...". In Acts, Peter echos this as well, "whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved!"

What does it actually mean to believe in Jesus? Just accept him? NO! Jesus says over and over again that if you believe him, then you will keep his commandments and do as he says. This is no different than a politican who says he loves America and believes in America. But if that politician truly did love America and believe in America then that political would follow the constitution. It's called lip service and their hearts are far away.

People have never been saved by following the law, even in the OT times. God said to the prophet Habakkuk, the just shall live by faith. Not, the just shall live by the law. Having faith and trust in God has. Abraham was justified by his faith, too.

I believe you are taking a single word and instance of "faith", and applying it to men many things outside the verse you quoted. You can have faith in anything, so just saying you have faith is a bit vague. Have faith in what? In the case of the verse you mention, it appears to me that he is talking about having faith that the vision he has been given will come true.

Habakkuk

1I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.

2And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

3For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

4Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Going back to the Moses verse from numbers, where it mentions faith. It says he is faithful in all his houses. Again, faith in specific things, not just blind faith.

I'm not a man of faith in such a way. However, I have alot of faith that what I have been shown and known is true. I have faith that in the end the good will win, and so forth. I have faith in the father. If I just accepted and believed everything everyone said and called it faith, then what good is it?

Proverbs 8

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Is it possible that the just live on faith alone because the only thing left for them is faith that the knowledge and wisdom they have received is true?

Originally posted by octotom
The reason that the book of Enoch was left out is because it wasn't considered by the Jews to be apart of the canon. When the "Christian" Bible was being put together, the Tanahk was more or less brought over as the Jews recognized it. The 27 (39 in the Bible as we'd know it) books in the OT were recognized by Jews to be God's word.

Enoch never was part of the Jewish canon because it was written during the intertestamental period and during that time, many books had the names of famous characters just thrown on to get people to read it. It's apocalyptic literature and was more for entertainment than anything else, really.

I'll take your word for it. I'm not a biblical scholar, so as far as this stuff goes I'm going off second hand knowledge. However, the thing that caught my attention about that book is because I was told Jesus makes mention of the book and quotes it or something.

As well, I don't know how much I put on the whole "accepted books" stuff too much. Alot of things were oral as I understand it, and well history is flush with examples of things that were not considered "acceptable" by the mainstream standards but are completely valid.

So I dunno.

Short answer Jesus returning will be the rapture and it’s not going to last long enough for questions. Now the next person claiming to be Jesus or of that nature is going to be the Biblical Anti Christ.

Originally posted by Ant4AU
Short answer Jesus returning will be the rapture and it’s not going to last long enough for questions. Now the next person claiming to be Jesus or of that nature is going to be the Biblical Anti Christ.

Can you give the biblical verses for the rapture? Because to be honest, it doesn't make much sense to me. A personal rapture I could more easily believe.

I mean, why are the people of the end times so much more special than all the people who have been killed and tortured in the past? People who lived through the Dark Ages for example. What about all those people? They are all made to suffer, but for some reason everyone else who happens to be alive at this time isn't going to have to suffer as others did?

There have been some pretty brutal events in world history. I don't understand why suddenly all the people from a certain time are more special than others.

I do believe a couple of you are misinterpreting the Holy Spirit for the Second Coming. It's easily done but it's wrong. The whole point of Jesus coming in the first place was so that we could have the Father's Spirit lift up in us. God never meant to be sought in vain, but just because the Son of Man lifts up in a person and one suddenly knows all truths doesn't negate the fact, that one day the Spiritual realm and this physical realm will merge in a head on collision.

He could aleady be here? The Holy Spirit is here so we aren't left as orphans until the Second Coming and so we are being taught correctly, but the day of the Lord will be unmistakable according to both the Old and New Testaments.



[edit on 22-2-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by badmedia


Of course this is open to interpretation as the rest of the Bible is but here is a verse.

Mark 13: 26-27

26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27And then shall he send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This comes from Mark where Jesus is speaking of the time of Great Tribulation.

I'm an Atheist, but I'll comment in a strictly theoretical way.

I'd say he'd be placed in a mental institution. Where do people get sent that believe they are the son of god? There is your answer.

Would god intervene and force people to see jesus for who he was? I'd say no because he didn't stop him dying the first time.

Unless jesus started turning lakes into Johnny Walker or some other miraculous deed I doubt there would be any way to differentiate him from the average loony with severe issues.

Originally posted by gate13
when son of god returns all living creatures will know.

no one will escapse his coming.


a good place to start for your self would be the book of revelations

No, this would be the worst place to start. As a matter of fact, don't start in the bible period, but it is true, no one escapes his coming. His name means "SELF EXISTENT SALVATION"...you can't escape that one.

Start with yourself. If you're the one making a choice to be saved or not saved then guess what, you are the only one saving, as only you can choose.

Just remember this. "When something sounds to good to be true...it usually is. Do anything you want your whole life and get out of it by saying a magic name? You probably didn't know that Abra Kadabra was designed for this, but now people call it Jesus Christ.

It is so far from truth, the "image", it is executing the ones "hatching" nothing but air.

They didn't know Jesus then, and they still don't.

Jesus is the head of the body and that position never changes, everyday new ones are born, and theirs is the kingdom of heaven...to exist.

The head always has fresh ideas and thoughts, not one of them is new, but we toss the bad ones away...they die off like dinosaurs.

Peace

Originally posted by Ant4AU
Of course this is open to interpretation as the rest of the Bible is but here is a verse.

Mark 13: 26-27

26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27And then shall he send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This comes from Mark where Jesus is speaking of the time of Great Tribulation.

Still think something is missing / not right. What about all the people in history and stuff. Was their suffering not as bad? What makes these people more special than those in the past? If true, great for those who aren't made to suffer. It's not like the world needs more suffering IMO.

As well, from the same chapter you quote:

13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

reply to post by badmedia


The book of Enoch was quoted by Jude. Jude 9 I think is where the quotation is. He talks about Michael and Satan arguing over Moses' body.

The three recountings of Paul's conversion do match up. The men obviously heard the voice, but it is never said that they understood it.

The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. Acts 9.7 (ESV)

Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me Acts 22.9 (ESV)

The third telling makes no mention of the men hearing the voice or not.

I would expect one's conversion experience to be basically the same. But, details are going to be different based on the audience that you're talking to.

Naturally, Peter and the other Apostles aren't going to just willy nilly accept Paul. Remember, he was trying to kill the Christians! There would have to be some "warming up time" to make sure that a person is truly saved. Many Baptist churches practice this today in regards to baptism. They'll wait and see if the person has made a genuine conversion.

Even if he was Jesus, i would not accept him. For he is not the only son of god, despite what many believe. If Jesus was truly a god, or even a good person, he would have come down here many years ago, and cleaned up his mess.

You can blame the Vatican, you can blame other religions, you can blame political leaders, but the stuff that was done in Jesus of Nazareth's name, was just that, done in his name.

He should Man up, and Take Responsibility.

So now that i have stated my Opinion, let the village people with their Torches and Pitch Forks Burn the heretic witch at the stake.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by darcon]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by Ant4AU
Short answer Jesus returning will be the rapture and it’s not going to last long enough for questions. Now the next person claiming to be Jesus or of that nature is going to be the Biblical Anti Christ.

Can you give the biblical verses for the rapture? Because to be honest, it doesn't make much sense to me. A personal rapture I could more easily believe.

I mean, why are the people of the end times so much more special than all the people who have been killed and tortured in the past? People who lived through the Dark Ages for example. What about all those people? They are all made to suffer, but for some reason everyone else who happens to be alive at this time isn't going to have to suffer as others did?

There have been some pretty brutal events in world history. I don't understand why suddenly all the people from a certain time are more special than others.

The key passage for the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18. Jesus mentions it in John [sorry, I'll have to find the reference] and Paul speaks of being raptured in 1 Corinthians, when he ascends to the third heaven. There have also been types of the rapture, namely Enoch, Elijah, and John [in Revelation]. The same verb that's used in 1 Thessalonians is also used to describe Philip being transported to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. Many point to Revelation 3.10 also because, in that particular letter to the church in Philadelphia, Jesus says that they'd be kept from the hour of trial.

A fun thing to do to understand the idea of the rapture better is to study the Jewish wedding and it's events.

It's not that the people in the end times are any more special that the early church or anyone in between. It just happens that they're on the earth when it happens. Don't forget that the dead are raptured too, not just the living. In fact, the dead rise first. Never forget as well, that even though there has been hell on Earth many times before in the Earth's history, the Tribulation is like nothing that has ever been. To quote Jesus:

For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. Matthew 24.21-22 (ESV)

[edit on 2/23/2009 by octotom]

Originally posted by darcon
Even if he was Jesus, i would not accept him. For he is not the only son of god, despite what many believe. If Jesus was truly a god, or even a good person, he would have come down here many years ago, and cleaned up his mess.

It's not his mess but rather, fallen man's mess. He will come back and finish things once and for all. "Once the fullness of the Gentiles have been brought it." God has a timetable and he sticks to it.

reply to post by octotom


He should have come back sooner. He can blame it on man all he wants.

If he is as powerful and loving as everyone thinks he is, than why isn't he here, excommunicating the many Christian priests, ministers, and nuns who have sexually molested and some cases RAPED thousands of innocent children around the world.

Or why didn't he not intervene when the Christian Armies of the first crusade, raped and pillaged Jerusalem.

Yet he had to stick to his timetable instead. God had nothing to do with this.

Of course the men and women up above will have karmic consequences, and many already have. The fact is, it was carried out in Jesus Christ's name.

Therefore he has karmic consequences too.

and that is all i will say.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by darcon]

reply to post by darcon


Believe me, I wish that he would've come back a while ago! But Jesus came with a mission--to redeem the lost. He can't come back until all that are going to be redeemed are redeemed especially the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Once national Israel accepts Christ as their savior, their messiah, that's when he'll return.

Originally posted by octotom
The key passage for the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18. Jesus mentions it in John [sorry, I'll have to find the reference] and Paul speaks of being raptured in 1 Corinthians, when he ascends to the third heaven. There have also been types of the rapture, namely Enoch, Elijah, and John [in Revelation]. The same verb that's used in 1 Thessalonians is also used to describe Philip being transported to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. Many point to Revelation 3.10 also because, in that particular letter to the church in Philadelphia, Jesus says that they'd be kept from the hour of trial.

Paul doesn't cut it for me. I guess it explains where you get your beliefs etc, but doesn't help me at all since I do not accept him.

I do believe in personal rapture, as I had it offered to me. Every day I am here it is by my own choice.

And in Revelations 3, he is going to make the christian church into the church of Satan, just as I do. Yeah, it says Jews, but the Christian religion didn't exist at the time.

Personal rapture also makes a lot more sense. As well as personal trials and tribulations people have gone through in the past 2000 years as a way of teaching them. Seems like the great tribulation is more towards the powers of the earth rather than those on the earth. Judging the nations and such.

I seen it as more like the truth gets exposed, and the people themselves tear down the powers of the world. As it is a time of great revealing etc. Have to see I guess.

A fun thing to do to understand the idea of the rapture better is to study the Jewish wedding and it's events.

It's not that the people in the end times are any more special that the early church or anyone in between. It just happens that they're on the earth when it happens. Don't forget that the dead are raptured too, not just the living. In fact, the dead rise first. Never forget as well, that even though there has been hell on Earth many times before in the Earth's history, the Tribulation is like nothing that has ever been. To quote Jesus:

For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. Matthew 24.21-22 (ESV)

I see Jesus as coming to people as meaning the truth comes to people. And once the people see the truth, then they wake up and walk the path and are no longer deceived. Only good people need to be deceived anyway, if they were totally evil then they wouldn't need to be tricked into doing evil. And so when it says that nobody would be saved if it isn't stopped, it's because the evil on the earth gets to the point where nobody is able to see the truth and nobody would be saved.