STOP the socialisms!

The government will decide WHETHER your life is worth saving, versus what it will cost to save your life. People will be reduced to a pure economic investment. If you're young, and capable of contributing to the wonderful socialist state, then you can have the health care procedure your doctor wants. On the other hand, if you are retired, or poor, and not contributing to the socialist state economically, you can die. I am not exaggerating. This is EXACTLY what Daschle talked about in his book.

As opposed to the current system where your receiving treatment is dependent upon how badly it will affect an insurance providers bottom line...who will stall, put up barriers and TRY and let you die so they can save a few bucks. Sounds like our healthcare is ALREADY reduced to a purely economic level.

Of course you can pay for it yourself out of pocket if you can cover the average cost of around 20-40K for cancer treatment, 15k for broken bone, when I went to an emergency room for a severly swollen throat where I couldn't breathe I only had to wait 6 hours for treatment (I thought we didn't have to wait for treatment in our system...lol!) and it only cost me $1300+.. If it is immediately life threatening you can hit up an emergency room and watch your credit get squashed cause you can't afford to pay...and then you can't find an apartment cause your credit bleeding heart yada yada. I suppose if I was rich I WOULD prefer the current system...but I'm not.

I prefer tax payer funded roads to toll roads...and I prefer tax payer funded healthcare to our current system.

Originally posted by littlebunny

Originally posted by aNdReSk
you do realize that your police department, fire department, public libraries, the US postal service and things like that, are socialist?

maybe u want to stop all that too :p but in my opinion they do a pretty good job.

What is mentioned above as socialism (police, fire, post office), is completely laughable! Those are aspects that are needed to help maintain peace and order and to provide people with a limited amount of security/safety in any and every society...

I'm pretty sure health care is needed for the limited amount of safety, and should be necessary to keep order (but hey, we're too busy nursing injuries and illnesses we can't afford to start a revolution)!

It is my belief that Socialism is pure evil! There is nothing and I mean nothing more evil then socialism, nothing! Nothing but love!

There you go, mm, this is a little more like it!

with socialism!



[edit on 15-2-2009 by anyone]

Originally posted by Divinorumus

Originally posted by sadisticwoman
I wish we had caps on how much money someone could make in a year.

WHAT? That's crazy, man. Why would you want to limit someones productivity? And besides, you can't control how much a person wants to earn. I mean, suppose there is a farmer out there with a big ranch and makes a few million a year, and your cap idea limits income at $500,000. Would this farmer have to sell 5/6th of his ranch? And, what about others that earn millions every year. Instead of working 12 months a year earning as much as they can, does this mean they can only work for the first couple of months every year before they have to call it quits until next year? And what about the guy that owns a factory? Does he have to stop taking orders in March and lay off all his employees and shut down his factory for the rest of the year because he reach the limit on income and isn't allowed to run his factory any longer?

Get real man, you and any government have no right to limit an individuals right and desire to work as hard and earn as much as they possibly can and desire, that's just wrong. What you are talking about is lowering productivity, GDP, etc. You just can stipulate that some people can only work for a few months out of each year.

Hey we are on your turf now -

Why limit PAY???

Who knows?

The point is to stop the further socialismation of AMERICA!

SO, the only thing I can think of is investing in AMERICA so the SOCIALIST government does not have 2!

IF you don't want the government to do it and you do not want to do it?

I'm in though, I can $20,000 per kidney in Mexico city!

GO GM!

Originally posted by whaaa
I'm with you MM. I'm gonna put all my money back into GM. Buy American!!

Don't toss your money away. Invest in yourself! I'm all for investing, but NOT in what isn't working. Start your own business if you have money to invest. Buy something that will appreciate over time instead of tank. Put your money into something that YOU can control. If you are not interested in starting your own business, loan what you have to someone else that you trust that wants to start their own business and become a partner.

I would highly discourage investing in ANYTHING which YOU do NOT have control over at this time. And I would recommend getting rid of any dollars you have and invest in something that will sustain you when the dollar eventually crashes. Money, gold, silver, you can't eat that stuff. Buy some land which you can farm when the economy goes to hell. Start your own little manufacturing business making things people will always need, even during horrible economic times. Regardless of what happens to the economy or the dollar, the ability to produce things we need will always retain value. Heck, even a small business making shovels will support you even during the worst of times. I mean, even once the economy crashes and the dollar is dead, people will still need shovels, and you can trade shovels for food.

Originally posted by Divinorumus

Originally posted by whaaa
I'm with you MM. I'm gonna put all my money back into GM. Buy American!!

Don't toss your money away. Invest in yourself! I'm all for investing, but NOT in what isn't working. Start your own business if you have money to invest. Buy something that will appreciate over time instead of tank. Put your money into something that YOU can control. If you are not interested in starting your own business, loan what you have to someone else that you trust that wants to start their own business and become a partner.

Haven't you noticed that when you put this guy and the end of a sentence; it usually denotes sarcasm?

reply to post by SonOfChaos


Take the time to read this about the Health Provisions slipped into the "Stimulus Bill".
www.bloomberg.com...

Tragically, no one from either party is objecting to the health provisions slipped in without discussion. These provisions reflect the handiwork of Tom Daschle, until recently the nominee to head the Health and Human Services Department. Senators should read these provisions and vote against them because they are dangerous to your health. (Page numbers refer to H.R. 1 EH, pdf version). The bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors. But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.” Keeping doctors informed of the newest medical findings is important, but enforcing uniformity goes too far. New Penalties Hospitals and doctors that are not “meaningful users” of the new system will face penalties. “Meaningful user” isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose “more stringent measures of meaningful use over time” (511, 518, 540-541) What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the “tough” decisions elected politicians won’t make. The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs. He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept “hopeless diagnoses” and “forgo experimental treatments,” and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system. Elderly Hardest Hit Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt. Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464). The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. Treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly, such as osteoporosis.

Now compare the "Stimulus Health Provisions to the following:

In October of 1939 amid the turmoil of the outbreak of war Hitler ordered widespread "mercy killing" of the sick and disabled. Code named "Aktion T 4," the Nazi euthanasia program to eliminate "life unworthy of life" at first focused on newborns and very young children. Midwives and doctors were required to register children up to age three who showed symptoms of mental retardation, physical deformity, or other symptoms included on a questionnaire from the Reich Health Ministry. A decision on whether to allow the child to live was then made by three medical experts solely on the basis of the questionnaire, without any examination and without reading any medical records. Each expert placed a + mark in red pencil or - mark in blue pencil under the term "treatment" on a special form. A red plus mark meant a decision to kill the child. A blue minus sign meant a decision against killing. Three plus symbols resulted in a euthanasia warrant being issued and the transfer of the child to a 'Children's Specialty Department' for death by injection or gradual starvation. The decision had to be unanimous. In cases where the decision was not unanimous the child was kept under observation and another attempt would be made to get a unanimous decision. The Nazi euthanasia program quickly expanded to include older disabled children and adults. Hitler's decree of October, 1939, typed on his personal stationary, enlarged "the authority of certain physicians to be designated by name in such manner that persons who, according to human judgment, are incurable can, upon a most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death." Questionnaires were then distributed to mental institutions, hospitals and other institutions caring for the chronically ill. Patients had to be reported if they suffered from schizophrenia, epilepsy, senile disorders, therapy resistant paralysis and syphilitic diseases, retardation, encephalitis, Huntington's chorea and other neurological conditions, also those who had been continuously in institutions for at least 5 years, or were criminally insane, or did not posses German citizenship or were not of German or related blood, including Jews, Negroes, and Gypsies. A total of six killing centers were established including the well known psychiatric clinic at Hadamar. The euthanasia program was eventually headed by an SS man named Christian Wirth, a notorious brute with the nickname 'the savage Christian.' At Brandenburg, a former prison was converted into a killing center where the first Nazi experimental gassings took place. The gas chambers were disguised as shower rooms, but were actually hermetically sealed chambers connected by pipes to cylinders of carbon monoxide. Patients were generally drugged before being led naked into the gas chamber. Each killing center included a crematorium where the bodies were taken for disposal. Families were then falsely told the cause of death was medical such as heart failure or pneumonia.

www.historyplace.com...

PEOPLE, REMEMBER, THOSE THAT DON'T LEARN FROM HISTORY'S MISTAKES ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT THEM.

Originally posted by littlebunny

Originally posted by aNdReSk
Like fire, police, roads, post offices, etc that are agreed too by the populace… Not tax those who worked hard for what they make/have, so sadistwoman and those like her can take more while giving so much less.

I agree, I would much rather get a speeding ticket than have SOCIALISMS health!

You never know on what the bandages were on before you!

And reusing those butt garments

NOT really

[edit on 15-2-2009 by mental modulator]

Do you also like paying absurd ammounts of money to get a decent education? I don't support having a welfare at all, but neither I support to charge students to get their education. Many young students have to go in deep debt in order to finish college/university. That makes them slaves of the bank.

Originally posted by mental modulator


SOOOO! whos gonna join me in some stock market magic!


Where are all the conservatives?

FREE MARKET CAPITALISTS in the HOUSE!

Are you really serious? Our country has never been in more debt as a percentage of gdp. The government debt is probably to a point where it can not be paid off - I really don't even think we could bring in enough of a tax surplus to pay the yearly interest at this point.

Our government's answer is to put us further in debt to buy a few more months before total collapse.

Unemployment is rising quickly, our education system is the worst its been in years, the Obama adminstration wants socialism and our manufacturing base is the smallest its been in decades. Promising companies that actually might help grow our economy cannot even get funding in this market because the risk is viewed as too high. The fed is actually creating whatever money the banks need to keep them from collapsing and all signs show they will need many billions more for quite awhile to keep them from doing just that.

Fraud in the financial sector has run unchecked and no one even knows how bad of shape the banks or hedge funds are in because no one has done their jobs regulating them. The fed will not reveal who they are giving money too because they do not want to "alarm" the people.

Then you have a congress who wont even vote no on a bill they have not even read despite it costing Americans nearly 1 trillion dollars. Most don't even want to let the people see the bill.

Why on earth knowing all this would you think it is a good thing to invest in the market now? At the very least there is uncertainty everywhere - this means there is a lot of risk. I would say to me it is clear we are nowhere near the bottom, and you and a few other individual investors are nothing in the realm of the big money, they determine where the market goes.

What you really need to be doing is stocking up on food and water, and saving every dime you can unless you are very wealthy and can afford to take huge risks.

Even if you are wealthy I think you should be buying property and hard assets and not some stock certificates that could easily evaporate if things get bad enough.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Well now I am very confussed...

Socialism is goverment intervention -correct?

The FREEDOM way is free market and investing- correct?

So why not INVEST it ALL? EVERYONE!

IF every person who watched GLEN BECK last week INVESTED last week, we would have no reason to SOCIALISM next week!

OH, but NO! SOCIALIMISTS win no matter what?

YOU can be socialist all you want than -NOT ME - NO way!

Originally posted by aNdReSk
Do you also like paying absurd ammounts of money to get a decent education? I don't support having a welfare at all, but neither I support to charge students to get their education. Many young students have to go in deep debt in order to finish college/university. That makes them slaves of the bank.

WELL it their choice to be educated now isn't it?

THEIR choice to in debt!

The banks create jobs - why would you punish a bank?

Education is overrated

Originally posted by SonOfChaos[/]

As opposed to the current system where your receiving treatment is dependent upon how badly it will affect an insurance providers bottom line...who will stall, put up barriers and TRY and let you die so they can save a few bucks. Sounds like our healthcare is ALREADY reduced to a purely economic level.

...I suppose if I was rich I WOULD prefer the current system...but I'm not.

I prefer tax payer funded roads to toll roads...and I prefer tax payer funded healthcare to our current system.

First of all everything in every society on this planet, everything, is based purely on an economic level/cost regardless of governmental structure… to even suggest otherwise is pure madness! Second, you want the government to have control over everyone's Medicare? Really!

Hmm, would you support a system like car insurance? Where everyone must have medical insurance, and if not the local government garnishes your wages to force you to get private medical insurance and fines those who refuse to help cover the costs on society?

If you are really upset, then you should be upset with all the bleeding heart liberal/socialist in this country. They have created this beast that you are talking about. They have forced hospitals to accept all who come to there doors... People take their child to the emergency room with temperatures of 99 degrees or for scrapped up knees, and that is why you have to wait. And then these people refuse to pay. Illegal aliens refuse to pay their bills. So guess what, everyone has to pay to cover the losses... including you! Awe sorry you can't get something for nothing because you want to be responsible, while others don’t give a damn... But that is the system socialist have forced onto this nation, and now you people think giving my life away so the government can decide yes or no is the solution? Are you people nucking futs?

Private solutions are the only answer, anything less is against a free people! Besides, if you do just a little research you would realize every single country the world over , (every last damn one of them), is going back to a private healthcare solution because socialist healthcare is stupid and does not work. It ruins their overall healthcare and costs to damn much... I mean if socialist healthcare was so damn good, why do Canadians come to America for their medical needs... Why do hundreds of thousands from Europe come here for their medical needs... If as Mr. Moore said, Cuba's medical system is so great, (even though Moore admitted he lied to make a point), why did Cuba's fearless leader go to Spain for his serious healthcare needs. I realize you probably don't get it… so let me break it down for you. Because socialized healthcare sucks!

There are private solutions, and making people get private health insurance the same way everyone is forced to get private automotive insurance is the only answer that will work for a free society and lower costs, and so as to keep us safe from a tyrannical government... Period! Everything socialist is nothing but evil pure and simple, and I will be damned if I will allow some government bureaucrat to decide my fate..

Nothing but love...

--Charles Marcello