U.S. vs. China

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by D
I just did a bit of research. There are currently no US bases of any kind in any part of Australia. There was talk of establishing one but the US Defence Department dismissed it saying that i wouldn't happen for a while.

Also as I earlier said, I don't think many countries would want to invade Australia. All you get is a mass of desert with a few cities and towns along the coastline. NO strategic gain in any way. What are you gonna use it for? Invade New Zealand? and it's too hard to ship a lot of men and equipment to Australia without getting harrassed or destroyed by the RAAF. The most any country would do I believe would be to isolate Australia and force it into some sort of diplomatic or economic tight spot.

and Madman, I'm curious where you get your info on American bases in Australia. Any links?

Here's a few links concerning US military bases in Australia.

US Department of Defence Page
www.defenselink.mil...

Australian Newspaper
www.theage.com.au...

ASEAN site
www.aseanfocus.com...




[Edited on 15-4-2004 by D]

They are not US bases, but Australian bases which we use

It is a very common practice with our UK english speaking allies as well. We do not set up our own bases, but rather we use theirs and put the equipment there to support our planes.

I hope I clarified that, and did not mean to imply that their were US only bases over there, as there is no need. The australian government is more then accomidating.

As for why invade Australia, it has a great deal of natural resorces. Plus, it is simply "in their neck of the woods." An imperialistic country would want it if for no other reason then for domination over there own are.

As for it having no strategic value - I believe the fact that we are even discussing the US launching sorties from australia would be enough for them to think of it as a strategic location. Think about it.

I'm ok with that.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by American Mad Man
This is pathetic. No one in America that isn't thinking about military hypotheticals (ie - over 299 million people) is scared of China. No one in America is brought up to despise any country that does not walk in the same line. This is a foriegn perception. We do hate those that threaten us and we do dislike those that oppose us taking action against those that threaten us.

Well, I don't think you were replying directly to my post but to the guy who quoted me. And I don't entirely agree with him but then nor do I totally discard his comments.
I was over in the US when the spyplane was brought down a couple of years ago. I seem to remember that the US media blew it all out of proportion and people were up in arms. From the reaction of people in Miami, where I was staying at the time, a foriegner would have got the impression that this spyplane had been brought down over US territory and not close to mainland China where it was operating.

I also seem to remember a poll held at the time of this incident and China came out as the main opponent of the US - even over Saddam. Something like 75% of US citizens viewed China as a threat and as an enemy of the US. Only 27% of Americans saw China as even being remotely friendly.

www.cnn.com...

Granted, this incident was over 3 years ago, but from what I've seen in my last couple of visits, views seem to have polarised.

I do agree that Americans aren't brought up to despise other countries, but they are brought up to fear some. And unfortunately, fear leads to hatred.

[Edited on 15-4-2004 by Leveller]

OK, first, like it was said - it was not a spy plane. Second, the plane was operating IN INTERNATIONAL AIRSPACE. Thus, it had every right to be their - as much as any Chineese plane did. The fact that a crapy Chineese pilot tried to hot dog and ended up crashing into the plane should be noted as well, since we lost very secret tech to a rival because of it. Also, if efevyone was concerned with China at the time, it is only natural.

I'd also like to remind you that taking down an aircraft in international airspace is enough to be considered an act of war. I think this should show the US is not some war hungry blood thirsty nation.

As for fearing other countries, it is only those that are a threat to America that are feared - which I would say is quite normal. I would say Europe was quite afraid of the USSR during the cold war just as we were.

OK - back to the discussian at hand...

Heres a question to be considered - what role would allies play on both sides? The US has a large group of allies to draw upon, but does China like wise have anyone to come to their aid?

Of special importance is Russia. Most would assume that IF they got involved, it would be alongside China - but I'm not too sure. Any thoughts?

I don't think many nations would come to China's aid. Russia would probably support China quietly, without actually sending troops and that. Just send equipment, guns, ammo etc. Maybe North Korea? I'm not sure. I'm sure the US would have plenty of allies, what role they would play I'm not sure.

The reason I singled out Russia is that at first glance, as you said they would support China - but what if they were offered part of China post war by the NATO side in exchange for their assistance. Imagine Russia storming through their northern boarder when China believed Russia would at worst be nuetral.

I think it would be very difficult to try to predict what Russia would do in that situation. The Chinese and Russians have been fairly strong military allies for a while now but Russia I'm sure would be quite tempted to take such an offer.

If Russia did ally itself with the NATO side, they would then lose quite a bit of money from arms sales to China, but then again with the territory they gain from China it could make up for it. Then again Russia might be given one of the poorer areas of China which might not generate much of an economy.

So it hard to tell in a situation like that.

And what about North Korea?

Does anyone think they would play a role in a China vs. US war?

Considering North Korea has openly said they are producing WMD they would most probably take the side of China.

There is a good chance that Russia would go with China.

Because Russia really hates border violation.

Example: Poland joined NATO and now its easier to attack Russia.

Also US is make allies all around Russia and Russia is very unhappy about that.

That is the reason I think Russia would join China.

Also Russia is not a bad friend of China either.

Russia is selling tech and weapons to China. Why would they want to lose a customer.

If China got beat by US then Chinas next government would buy weapons from US and Russia would lose money. But is Russia help China and China won then China would be more depended on Russian weapons and would buy more. That would bring money to Russia.

Out,
Russian

I dunno about NK. China is not exactly happy withthem either, but if they were to choose a side, it would most likely be Chinas

Originally posted by Russian
There is a good chance that Russia would go with China.

Because Russia really hates border violation.

Example: Poland joined NATO and now its easier to attack Russia.

Also US is make allies all around Russia and Russia is very unhappy about that.

That is the reason I think Russia would join China.

Also Russia is not a bad friend of China either.

Russia is selling tech and weapons to China. Why would they want to lose a customer.

If China got beat by US then Chinas next government would buy weapons from US and Russia would lose money. But is Russia help China and China won then China would be more depended on Russian weapons and would buy more. That would bring money to Russia.

Out,
Russian

Point well taken

However, I was under the impression that Russia and China were not on the best of terms - not really hostile or anything, just not close allies. Am I wrong?

Thats about right. They don't really hate each other, don't really like each other. The relationship between the 2 countries seems strictly business (weapons)

Ok guys. I'm asian,

and the one thing tha I don't get is: why would you want to "liberate" China in the forst place? If it's just a show-off betwen two modern forces (which I might add China is a few decades behind), then what's the point?

If the US suspects China of "illegal" activites, well look at your own governent! What has the NSA been up to? With all the Echelon crap, cmon - theyre a daned bunch of trigger happy hypocrites!

Somebody just end this thread already.

[Edited on 16-4-2004 by Socalbmx]

Take it easy buddy. I'm Chinese Australian (parents are Chinese, I was born here in Australia). We're not talking about liberating China, its the scenario of a China and US war. Many would agree that the US is hypocrticial and in many aspects it is. But we're not China bashing here, we're just discussing a scenario.

Originally posted by D
Take it easy buddy. I'm Chinese Australian (parents are Chinese, I was born here in Australia). We're not talking about liberating China, its the scenario of a China and US war. Many would agree that the US is hypocrticial and in many aspects it is. But we're not China bashing here, we're just discussing a scenario.

Exactly
This is hypothetical ONLY
A "what if?" scenerio at best
the reason it comes up is because China is the most likely country to be able to compete with the US in the not so distant future - take it as a compliment

And a US/China conflict currently, is highly unlikely (except for the Taiwan situation). Trade between the two is better than ever, political relations have been getting better ever since Hu Jintao was put into the presidency. Hu is one of the younger communist guys and he and much of his administration have been commended by the US for opening China up. Even Colin Powell said that since Hu has been the president, he has been able to talk to his Chinese counterpart without hearing all the Communist rhetoric and just having a normal discussion. So don't worry, at this point in time things are pretty stable between China and the US.

AmericanMadMan,

Im glad you corrected your statement about the US having bases in Australia. The US has no more than 500 - 1500 military personnel in Australia. These people are generally here for cross training and research positions scattered around several bases nationally or are stationed at the Pine Gap facility in the Northern Territory, which is basically a large satellite communications and intelligence centre. A small contingent of about about 2,000 Aussie troops (Commando, SAS, flight controllers etc.) were sent to Iraq as Australia's coalition commitment, so as you can appreciate the numbers of US troops stationed here and the Aussies sent to Iraq are small fry on the grand scale of things.

I believe our bases do not currently provide the US with stealth bomber deployment capabilities or any combat aircraft, only MAC outposts. If anything the bases can be made available to the US but I am not aware of that happening (outright provision of bases for unconditional use).

I must also make it clear to you that the Australian population is very sensitive to the basing of US forces on Australian soil. The push to build a joint US-Australian military training facility is getting closer and closer to getting a go ahead and even US General Richard Myers explicitly stated that the move should not be seen as an attempt by US to develop a base for its troops on Australian soil. Because he understands this sensitivity.

But with all that said, it would not surprise me in the least if the Australian Government sold out it's citizens and gave full access to the US military to do as it pleases on Australian soil. They sent our troops to war in Iraq (albeit a small but extremely effective contingent) regardless of significant opposition to it amongst the Australian population and that move speaks volumes.

Originally posted by Socalbmx
Ok guys. I'm asian,

and the one thing tha I don't get is: why would you want to "liberate" China in the forst place? If it's just a show-off betwen two modern forces (which I might add China is a few decades behind), then what's the point?

If the US suspects China of "illegal" activites, well look at your own governent! What has the NSA been up to? With all the Echelon crap, cmon - theyre a daned bunch of trigger happy hypocrites!

Somebody just end this thread already.

[Edited on 16-4-2004 by Socalbmx]

Chill. Read the first post. I never asked why they would fight, I asked what would happen IF they fought.

It's a really interesting topic.

Anyone who said Russia would take China's side is right. Russia has doesn't have a lot much to gain by helping America. They're not on THAT good terms with U.S. either.

One thing Russia has always disliked about America is how the U.S. dominate EVERY discussion. It's almost like their opinion is the only one that matters, and Russia doesn't like that. It threatens other nations' interests, including Russia. A war with China would certainly threaten any interests Russia has in the region.

About America having allies, that depends. Do we go in response to a threat or attack? Or are going in "preemptively?"

Originally posted by D
And a US/China conflict currently, is highly unlikely (except for the Taiwan situation). Trade between the two is better than ever, political relations have been getting better ever since Hu Jintao was put into the presidency. Hu is one of the younger communist guys and he and much of his administration have been commended by the US for opening China up. Even Colin Powell said that since Hu has been the president, he has been able to talk to his Chinese counterpart without hearing all the Communist rhetoric and just having a normal discussion. So don't worry, at this point in time things are pretty stable between China and the US.

The only way we'd go to war with China, I believe, is if we go to war with North Korea. But that depends on whether China sides with us or not, and I think they'd side with NK.