U.S. vs. China

! I almost ruined my keyboard with that one!

If you get banned I hope I do to! I don�t know why I even bother to argue on this site, it�s like chocolate. You don�t want it and hate it but you can�t live without it� I guess too many people are biased or just plain closed off from reality...

Originally posted by ChrisRT

! I almost ruined my keyboard with that one!

If you get banned I hope I do to! I don�t know why I even bother to argue on this site, it�s like chocolate. You don�t want it and hate it but you can�t live without it� I guess too many people are biased or just plain closed off from reality...

lol I know, its humor arguing.

I actually figure out a way to stop liking a food, and chocolate is one of them.

One time I was sick, and I puked. Right after I puked I gargled with scope and hydrogen peroxide, and rested for a mintue. Then I made my brother make me a Turkey leftover from Thanksgiving. After that I puked like 10 mintues later. Now I will not eat any of those foods again.

I did the same thing, but cramed in chocolate so I dont eat it anymore.


Two summers ago, my Grandma made this awsome chicken breast and was good at the time, but later I woke up in the middle of the night and puked on my blanket, and then I felt so sick and wouldn't eat chicken breast again thats breaded, it makes me think of eating breading and oil and nothing else. Heres a picture of what it looks like, Its making me ewwwwwww...







[edit on 1-1-2005 by Laxpla]

So you eat something you despise and 10 mins later you gurgle with that stuff in a brown bottle and scope? You have to be sick though? I might give it a try as odd as it sounds...
And live like one of those war freaks in the movie that only east pure fat for energy and vitamins and plant roots for nutrients.

Originally posted by ChrisRT

So you eat something you despise and 10 mins later you gurgle with that stuff in a brown bottle and scope? You have to be sick though? I might give it a try as odd as it sounds...
And live like one of those war freaks in the movie that only east pure fat for energy and vitamins and plant roots for nutrients.

lol war freaks? wtf? lol

Okay, start puking from being sick. But after you puke, you are bound to puke again within 10 mintues. So after the first time, eat something you want to stop eating, and eat alot of it, and let your body puke it up, and in your mind youll despise the food.

I am creating a theory, like you know when people puke because they see puke, its kind of like that.

Sounds interesting... Come to think of it I had the flue and ate some elbow spaghetti and threw it up massively clogging the sink at like 4am; I haven�t had it since that night like 4 years ago.

Originally posted by ChrisRT
Sounds interesting... Come to think of it I had the flue and ate some elbow spaghetti and threw it up massively clogging the sink at like 4am; I haven�t had it since that night like 4 years ago.

lol that freakin sick

My bad I misread, I thought it said 4 days not years. See the theory is working.


Iam off to bed, cya



[edit on 1-1-2005 by Laxpla]

Once, but I had like 2 or 3 cups of it because I was hungry and didn�t even know I was sick. I guess it was the thought of my hand going into the clogged sink and picking out the slimy, stomach acidy, half dissolved food by the handfuls that has kept me from eating it ever since.

Originally posted by ChrisRT
Then we have a problem... How is a HARM going to fire at a SAM site with its feeder radar off? How it the SAM site going to fire with its feeder radar off? Oh, and SAM sites aren�t mobile to a fighter jet with HARMs�

The minute a missile is detected then they can shut off the radar.

More then 90% of the kills where done by USAF and USN fighter jets...

Yeah like to see some proof on that.

Make no mistake about it, USAF and USN fighters have come further along the road since Vietnam then SAMs have...

Really...wouldnt say so myself like with you FF record but heh.

Who doesn�t know where American military bases are? So, little china has all of a sudden become a super power with a 2000 plane stealth airforce that has intercontinental ability?

So americas possible 300 stealth planes will clear the way in one night?

Stealthy assets are used on the longest of missions. B-2s being sent from the Indian ocean and CONUS, F-117s that would rather be sent from the comfort of a climate controlled bunker and soon to be rapid action force consisting of F-117s, B-2s, and F/A-22s.

How could the F/A22's be effective? There is only one squadron of them.
Also do you know how long it takes to cross the pacific?

First off, get this invulnerable B-2/F/A-22 thing out of you�re head. You won�t see one shot down in you�re lifetime no matter how much you want to see the said happen...

Really, so now your saying its invunerable?

Their bases are more vulnerable then US CBGs and would certainly be wiped out the first few hours of the war.

Too many bases for one group to hit....believe me i have checked.

So, a busted, possible useless infrastructure with the only radar left operating are a few dinky SAM site's from a country that doesn�t poses a radar that doesn�t exist that cant pick up a stealthy B-2 with ~80 SDBs at angles 40?

I dont think the latest russian SAM is going to be called dinky, its better than the patriot.
Well the patriot isnt hard to beat, you only need something that doesnt shoot down friendly jets.

I don�t think tanks will be useful with ~400 or 500 Super Hornets and Vipers roaming the skies...

You will still need tanks, unless of course you think a war can be won just in the air?

Originally posted by Laxpla
Multilayering, thats the job for UCAV to wipe out the area, chances are that you cannon't detect the Raptor or UCAV. The UCAV can bypass the new and advanced S-400, allowing easy access to demolition to targets.

"Chances are" is a big step away from "cant". You cant just bypass a target if it has sites all around it and or in it.

Well, in the future maby there can be a dedicated aircraft much like the Airborne Laser, but with many 100kw lasers to discard a squadron's enemys missles and aircraft itself. It isn't that far away actually. If we got a Airborne Laser up for testing this year to shoot down Ballistic missles, iam sure it will be soon for baby missles.

The future mabye. Now? not likely.
The USAF is going to work on bombs and missiles untill they can test this new laser stuff out.

Really?
I thought a force popping up behind enemy lines would be a SERIOS threat and could tip the balance but hey there you go i get it wrong!

A small force would not tip the scale. American troops have been ambushed, and completely surrounded in every war. In Korea, there were times when marines were surrounded by 10 times as many Chinese and still won.

Thousands of pictures of high definition over several hundered square miles mabye but not all of china and thats not includeing cloud cover.

So, a satellite can take thousands of a pictures a minute, but it can't cover all of China?

UMM i think the Argyll's might have something to say about that or the RAF shooting down migs (jets) with props..

Is there a point to this? It doesn't show the European effort was important.

They handled them because the beach was clear.
They handled them because the beach had been prepared for them.
Military forces MUST send in light troops (marines) to secure the land.
I dont remember any shermans scaleing cliff faces on normandy.

Once again, this doesn't even relate to your claim that all of our tanks were destroyed at D-Day.

"First version of a Sherman Crab, developped by the British in 1943"

I already said it was developed by the British. I wasn't arguing that. Go look at your actual statement. Go find a source backing that up.

The airborne invasion force assisted the sea attack.
Both recieved heavy casualties.
Why are you still going on about mines!

There wasn't an airborn invasion force at Normandy. The paratroopers were not an invasion force.

German armoured forces could have swung through pegasus bridge, lightly defended by british 6th para division and gone and wiped out the invasion force on the beaches.
Luckily the fuhrer didnt allow any tank movements with out his knowledge or aprroval.

This is just speculation, as I've said. It very well could have been the difference maker. America had been in simliiar situations at times, though, and pulled it out.

The british had 2 battalions over there helping americans, on the front lines.
The argylls came in with 2 comanies and about 150 where killed or wounded after an american friendly fire incident and surviveing wave after wave of assualts.
Now you tell me that they "didnt do much"

Wait, you talked about the hill in regards to tunnels, not me saying the British played a small role...

Either way, you can't point out a few cases and use that as some argument to show how important they were. You have to look at the entire war to see who played the larger role.

That may be but who was manning them is another factor.
Also china has also upped her defense since then.
So those may well have been useless bu the new systems are not tested agaisnt american fighters and nethier is america's latest fighter been tested against latest SAM's in actual combat.

SAM's have never won, that was my only point.

To make claims that SAM's are somehow these unstoppable weapons is baseless.

Yeah BUT a plane can be shot down, the chinese no doubt have information of american bases and would most likely put them out of commision.

The problem is that, unlike America, China can not use their power very far outside their own borders. They'd find it almost impossible to attack American bases in Taiwan and Japan with their limited capability.

It would be useless except for supplying stealth fighters and america doesnt really use stealth fighters for long missions and now its tactics are to use AWACS to support so supprise is only where the attack will come from not if it is there.

B-2's from Michigan were used in the bombing of Iraq.

Yeah but a B2 can be shot down, a navy is very vunerable to china's latest A2S/S2S/G2S missle. THE most advanced missile in the world that america has yet to aquire.

A B-2 can be shot down, if they could find it. Fortunately they can't.

Yeah but the reasons why they are dieing change the scope completly, you cant say that a countries population will follow its army into every war.

Yet its safe for you to say that the Chinese population would fight to the last man to stop the Americans? I'd say Americans have more reason to support their government then the Chinese.

Yeah and chinese can hide quicker than america can scramble a bomber.

You can't hide massive armies, or SAM sites even given a few hours.

The Us forces where using M1A1 abrahms which now are being replaced by the M1A2 tanks but slowly.

The iraqi's did use T-55's , want a picture from the MOD site of a burnt out T-55 taken by a challenger crew to prove it?
I believe the russians where using the T-80 then.

I never said the Iraqis weren't using T-55's, but to to try and represent that as their entire tank force, or even the majority is false.

Yeah , thats all they could do really.
The germans did sort of stab them in the back. Besides russian tactics of overwhelming got the job done

The Russian leadership ran from the Germans when they first arrived.

And there was plenty of warning that the Germans would attack. Even if Stalin ignored it, the generals couldn't, and shouldn't have been unprepared. They could have taken some precautions. They even had a German deserter warning them.

Define "huge".

Means they lost far more then they killed.

I wouldnt say dissaterous, they done pretty well and why are you putting them down?
They have went up against the best of the best and although beaten they learned from it.
They still make the most heavily armoured helicopters in the world.

The Russians have never really beaten the best.

The Russian leadership has always just been awful. There's really no other way to describe it. Even the rare exceptions in ALL of Russian history were only average at best.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
A small force would not tip the scale. American troops have been ambushed, and completely surrounded in every war. In Korea, there were times when marines were surrounded by 10 times as many Chinese and still won.

The enemy will be better trained than those in korea, and also better armed.
Now imagine 4 companies being let loose behind american lines? Bad news.

So, a satellite can take thousands of a pictures a minute, but it can't cover all of China?

Yeah thats the point , and your not takeing into account camoflauge, angle, cloud cover, terrain.etc.

Is there a point to this? It doesn't show the European effort was important.

The UN forces helped push them back to the 38th parralel.

Once again, this doesn't even relate to your claim that all of our tanks were destroyed at D-Day.

I never said all tank, i said in fact "your tanks where sunk 10 miles offshore" now tell me that is not true. This was true on the attack and the rest arrived by landing craft.

I already said it was developed by the British. I wasn't arguing that. Go look at your actual statement. Go find a source backing that up.

That americans didnt use them.
There are no sources which say americans haveing the crab tank.

There wasn't an airborn invasion force at Normandy. The paratroopers were not an invasion force.

They where part of one.

This is just speculation, as I've said. It very well could have been the difference maker. America had been in simliiar situations at times, though, and pulled it out.

Not speculation , pure facts. The enemy tanks where ready to sweep through and wipe out the force.
Even the people from the time agree.

Wait, you talked about the hill in regards to tunnels, not me saying the British played a small role...

I talked about the hill in regards to the part the british played not about tunnels also the tunnels would have been used to attack the position during the incident.

Either way, you can't point out a few cases and use that as some argument to show how important they were. You have to look at the entire war to see who played the larger role.

You played the larger part because you had a larger force but british and UN forces made a signifigant diffrence.

SAM's have never won, that was my only point.

Yeah but they have never really been used by a well trained force now have they?

To make claims that SAM's are somehow these unstoppable weapons is baseless.

The same can be said about the USAF and USN.

The problem is that, unlike America, China can not use their power very far outside their own borders. They'd find it almost impossible to attack American bases in Taiwan and Japan with their limited capability.

They can, they dont need to use planes.
How would they fly from taiwan? China OWNS taiwan!
Japan can be stopped by espionage.

B-2's from Michigan were used in the bombing of Iraq.

Yeah but did the enemy didnt have the ability to shoot over other countries.

A B-2 can be shot down, if they could find it. Fortunately they can't.

Yet again another arogant statement, B2's can be tracked and shot down.

Yet its safe for you to say that the Chinese population would fight to the last man to stop the Americans? I'd say Americans have more reason to support their government then the Chinese.

When they see pictures of children being killed by american troops on a larger scale than in iraq it will make a diffrence.
Also do you think they will like seeing thier troops die?

You can't hide massive armies, or SAM sites even given a few hours.

Yeah you can, you see there's this whole "mobile" thing.

I never said the Iraqis weren't using T-55's, but to to try and represent that as their entire tank force, or even the majority is false.

Even T62's are older than russian tanks of that day.

The Russian leadership ran from the Germans when they first arrived.

Yeah ever heard of tactics??

And there was plenty of warning that the Germans would attack. Even if Stalin ignored it, the generals couldn't, and shouldn't have been unprepared. They could have taken some precautions. They even had a German deserter warning them.

The soviet generals could do nothing under the reign of fear of stalin and his party.

Means they lost far more then they killed.

No , i dont think any general see's it that way.

The Russians have never really beaten the best.

The Russian leadership has always just been awful. There's really no other way to describe it. Even the rare exceptions in ALL of Russian history were only average at best.

The soviet leader ship was crap due to it being politicised and run by fear.
Now adays is a diffrent question.

The enemy will be better trained than those in korea, and also better armed.
Now imagine 4 companies being let loose behind american lines? Bad news.

The Chinese are marginally better then they were during Korea. Those troops we fought during Korea had actual combat experience. What was the last war China fought in?

Yeah thats the point , and your not takeing into account camoflauge, angle, cloud cover, terrain.etc.

Clouds aren't going to cover anything for long. We can take weeks to gather this information with our satellites. Angle is the same. These things are high up, obviously giving a large field of vision.

The rest are no different then with Iraq or Yugoslavia. Why is China going to be much better at hiding SAM's then they were?

The UN forces helped push them back to the 38th parralel

Americans just did more the 90% of the work.

I never said all tank, i said in fact "your tanks where sunk 10 miles offshore" now tell me that is not true. This was true on the attack and the rest arrived by landing craft.

I've never heard we lost tanks. I know plenty of troops were killed trying to land, and I'm sure some of the equipment was, as well. Our tanks weren't targeted more than anything else.

That americans didnt use them.
There are no sources which say americans haveing the crab tank.

The source I originally gave said it was an ally countermeasure. Whether America used them or not isn't even the point. I proved that mines aren't hard to overcome.

They where part of one.

They were just playing their role in the whole invasion. I fail to see what the point of mentioning them was. They were mainly being used to slow down German reaction.

Not speculation , pure facts. The enemy tanks where ready to sweep through and wipe out the force.
Even the people from the time agree.

You can't count something that didn't happen as fact. Stating the outcome as if there was no way of countering it is just dumb. It doesn't have impact on today, anyway. Any forces near the beach could be whiped out. America now has more capability to move heavy equipment faster.

I talked about the hill in regards to the part the british played not about tunnels also the tunnels would have been used to attack the position during the incident.

I've yet to see see anyone mention tunnels during this. And yes, you did mention this in regards to my statement on tunnels in Korea.

You played the larger part because you had a larger force but british and UN forces made a signifigant diffrence.

There were barely any UN forces.

Yeah but they have never really been used by a well trained force now have they?

The Iraqis weren't nearly as poorly trained as people like to make them out to be. Their elite units were no worse then the large bulk of the Chinese or Russian armies, and they were still no match for the Americans.

The Serbs weren't so bad, either.

And my point isn't that SAM's are or aren't effective. It's that no one has any basis for these statements. They are really untested weapons. They've always been beaten by the aircraft. So, until someone has some proof, I don't want to hear how they are going to stop American B-2's.

The same can be said about the USAF and USN.

The stealth aircraft have proven themselves in combat, and done it against Russian SAM's.

They can, they dont need to use planes.
How would they fly from taiwan? China OWNS taiwan!
Japan can be stopped by espionage.

China lays claim to Taiwan. I don't know if you've noticed, but Taiwan kind of disputes that, and holds it own military with missiles pointed right at China. China can't even extend its authority over Taiwan, to think that they could attack American bases in Japan or Australia is absurd.

Yeah but did the enemy didnt have the ability to shoot over other countries.

China doesn't have the ability, either. I don't think its a good idea to give other nations an excuse to join up with America to fight them. Australia and Japan have formidable militaries.

Yet again another arogant statement, B2's can be tracked and shot down.

It hasn't happened yet. I'm more inclined to believe that a plane that America is investing billions into is going to beat some cheap Russian SAM's that have never proven themselves in combat.

When they see pictures of children being killed by american troops on a larger scale than in iraq it will make a diffrence.
Also do you think they will like seeing thier troops die?

Iraq is completely different. Many see it as an unjust war. Most people in America still don't care about the Iraqis anywhere near as much as Americans.

Americans never backed down during WW2, the Civil War, or even the Revolution. America has proven that when it believes in a war, its willing to sacrafice as much as anyone else.

And Americans do not go slaughtering kids. Making that claim only shows your own bias.

Yeah you can, you see there's this whole "mobile" thing

SAM sites are large, and even the mobile sites aren't all that mobile. The radar is also very easy to find, and thats not mobile.

Even T62's are older than russian tanks of that day.

The T-80's were basically just modified T-72's. They weren't a big step-up.

Yeah ever heard of tactics??

They weren't tactics, the officers were just scared and unprepared.

The defense of Moscow was close to not even taking place. Stalin was ready to flee the city. Most of his cronies did. It never would have succeeded if the Russian winter hadn't weakened the German forces so much.

The soviet generals could do nothing under the reign of fear of stalin and his party.

The generals could warn their soldiers? They were hundreds of miles away from Stalin, and knew a German attack was coming. They could have taken precautions.

No , i dont think any general see's it that way.

What general feels he's really won a good victory when he's lost more men then the enemy?

The soviet leader ship was crap due to it being politicised and run by fear.
Now adays is a diffrent question.

What exactly has changed? The Russians aren't all that much more free now then they were throughout the Cold War.

The Russian leadership wasn't just poor during WW2. You can look back before that to when Napoleon invaded, or the Crimean wars. How many times did the Russians fail to extend their borders to the Black Sea?

The Iraqis did use many Russian style tactics. They didn't look so good.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
The Chinese are marginally better then they were during Korea. Those troops we fought during Korea had actual combat experience. What was the last war China fought in?

Any proof thier "marginally" better or is this just an honoest opinion.

Clouds aren't going to cover anything for long. We can take weeks to gather this information with our satellites. Angle is the same. These things are high up, obviously giving a large field of vision.

Weeks! Things can change in less than 24 hours!

The rest are no different then with Iraq or Yugoslavia. Why is China going to be much better at hiding SAM's then they were?

Because china has the most number of sams and most likely the best trained crews in thier reach.

Americans just did more the 90% of the work.

Any proof americans done 90% of the work?

I've never heard we lost tanks. I know plenty of troops were killed trying to land, and I'm sure some of the equipment was, as well. Our tanks weren't targeted more than anything else.

No they where not targetted they sunk, ten miles out because the USA comanders made a mistake and sent them too far out in bad conditions.

The source I originally gave said it was an ally countermeasure. Whether America used them or not isn't even the point. I proved that mines aren't hard to overcome.

Thats was then, mines are better now and mine detection is harder.
Look at the road side bomb problems in iraq.

They were just playing their role in the whole invasion. I fail to see what the point of mentioning them was. They were mainly being used to slow down German reaction.

Mainly being used to cause chaos and destruction and to get vital targets,like pegasus bridge.

You can't count something that didn't happen as fact. Stating the outcome as if there was no way of countering it is just dumb. It doesn't have impact on today, anyway. Any forces near the beach could be whiped out. America now has more capability to move heavy equipment faster.

With what though?
You must land light troops in first to secure it and to counter that you just need snipers.
To land the heavy stuff you can have to use a HLC to transport them but they are vunerable to fire.

I've yet to see see anyone mention tunnels during this. And yes, you did mention this in regards to my statement on tunnels in Korea.

okey i will provide evudece of tunnels in korea but i did mean for the hill 282 thing to be about how we supported the UN force,

[urlwww.koreanwar-educator.org...[/url]

There were barely any UN forces.

Define barely.

The Iraqis weren't nearly as poorly trained as people like to make them out to be. Their elite units were no worse then the large bulk of the Chinese or Russian armies, and they were still no match for the Americans.

Yeah thier elite units , which means chinese elite troops will be far better trained than them.

Russian army training is the best that can be exspected under the recent economical problems.

The Serbs weren't so bad, either.

Ofcourse they wheren't they have been fighting for over 80 years.

And my point isn't that SAM's are or aren't effective. It's that no one has any basis for these statements. They are really untested weapons. They've always been beaten by the aircraft. So, until someone has some proof, I don't want to hear how they are going to stop American B-2's.

Until someone proves to me that a B-2 cant be stopped by them i dont want to hear they are unstoppable.

The stealth aircraft have proven themselves in combat, and done it against Russian SAM's.

Yeah they where the first stealth craft in the latest form of combat which i doubt the SAM's where made for.

China lays claim to Taiwan. I don't know if you've noticed, but Taiwan kind of disputes that, and holds it own military with missiles pointed right at China. China can't even extend its authority over Taiwan, to think that they could attack American bases in Japan or Australia is absurd.

WHA?
Only a small percentage want seperation.
Most want statues quo aka being part of china.
China has thier own president yet is a terrirtory of china.
They can attack bases all over the world, of course this is unless you believe this will just be a good old fashioned war with tanks and planes and no black ops.

China doesn't have the ability, either. I don't think its a good idea to give other nations an excuse to join up with America to fight them. Australia and Japan have formidable militaries.

They can attack and be completely free of blame, i mean who can blame them if there is no evidence pointing towards them.

It hasn't happened yet. I'm more inclined to believe that a plane that America is investing billions into is going to beat some cheap Russian SAM's that have never proven themselves in combat.

The B-2 isnt invisible, its just stealthy.
Its allegedly been tracked by rapier SAM's used by the RAF.
These SAM's are the best in the world, better than the patriot.

Iraq is completely different. Many see it as an unjust war. Most people in America still don't care about the Iraqis anywhere near as much as Americans.

Did you see the reaction to the vietnam war?
Anti war demonstratters,
Frankly once america tries to break in they will find it a hard and impossible battle, the body count will rise above any so far.

Americans never backed down during WW2, the Civil War, or even the Revolution. America has proven that when it believes in a war, its willing to sacrafice as much as anyone else.

America was attacked twice so they seen it as a defensive war.

And Americans do not go slaughtering kids. Making that claim only shows your own bias.

They bombed bagdad and falluja knowing there where civilians there.
In falluja they got a chance to escape but in bagdad they didnt.

SAM sites are large, and even the mobile sites aren't all that mobile. The radar is also very easy to find, and thats not mobile.

They have thier own radar as well.
The rapier system is pretty mobile, and thats inferior to most SAM's.

The T-80's were only introduced a few years before the Gulf War. Russian probably didn't have all that many. Even still, the T-80's were basically just modified T-72's. They weren't a big step-up.

yeah that was over 10 years before operation telic.
10 years is enough to replace front line units and some reserves.
It was a step up.

They weren't tactics, the officers were just scared and unprepared.

Yeah a retreat and regroup tactic.

The defense of Moscow was close to not even taking place. Stalin was ready to flee the city. Most of his cronies did. It never would have succeeded if the Russian winter hadn't weakened the German forces so much.

Russian winter was the perfect defense for them and they exsplited it perfectly.

The generals could warn their soldiers? They were hundreds of miles away from Stalin, and knew a German attack was coming. They could have taken precautions.

Generals had a political officer that reported everything to his superiors which where part KGB or what ever intel agencies.
No one was safe from stalin, faluire meant death.

What general feels he's really won a good victory when he's lost more men then the enemy?

Every general when he gets at least 60% casualties feels like crap and knows the war is going bad.

What exactly has changed? The Russians aren't all that much more free now then they were throughout the Cold War.

Wha?
Its a democracy!
Now they dont have the KGB takeing you away in the middle of the night for saying something bad about stalin or the party.

The Russian leadership wasn't just poor during WW2. You can look back before that to when Napoleon invaded, or the Crimean wars. How many times did the Russians fail to extend their borders to the Black Sea?

They where ruled by monachy which was just as crap!
Russia had crap command because of politics and monarchy getting in the road.

The Iraqis did use many Russian style tactics. They didn't look so good.

Yeah tactics dont always work, russian and american generals cross train in tactics.
Some american tactics dont work today, it depends on many factors.

Frankly speaking, I think most American Marians or troops....most of them, from what I saw on TV instead of on Movies, act really suck. 99% they are going to call for air strike before they even WANT TO do anything. You must have watched too many Hollywood movies when you think every marian act like hero.

And, I have no idea why you make claim that Chinese are marginally better than they were during Korea war. In fact, it is obvious bias sentence just like I claim that all high school American teenagers math score are below C-. One example I can give to you is that the guerilla war between China and Vietnam was the almost the most horrible and cruel war in the world in last 40 years. Don't forget the fact that American lost the war basically to Vietnamines and Chinese basically defeated them (Of course, I admit China withdrew the troops after they face threaten from Soviet Union). Besides, trainings inherited from communism system are crueler than what looks like in western countries.

The only left advantage of American military is the high tech weapons. Unfortunately, even NASA has 1/3 engineers are Indians or Chinese. And the number of American-born scientist is dramatically shrink in last 10 years. (In fact, even in 1950s or 1960s, most famous scientist in America were not American born either-------Those who helped to design and gave innovative idea of atomic bomb, super sonic jet plane, satellites or even Apollo space ship were barely American-born scientists-----if you do little history fact check. When most industrial innovative R&D shift to Europe or Asia, I don�t see a reason the military R&D can still keep strong. So, god knows this only advantage can keep how long for Americans.

By the way, the other argument you made about Taiwan was completely ignorant about the basic fact and relationship between China and Taiwan. (There is a long thread about China and Taiwan in this website, please check that before you even want to claim anything about China and Taiwan, please). China DONOT want to destroy Taiwan by war because the Chinese consider Taiwan as part of China, that is the reason most time China just threaten Taiwan away from independence movement but never really did anything before things get really ugly. That does NOT mean that China is not capable of wipe out Taiwan. If things go ugly, Taiwan can only stand up to few hours even according to Rand�s report.

No other words, your argument about Taiwan and China alone has demonstrated you know very little about China.

Keep enjoy your government's propaganda. We all live in the systems of propaganda--whether you admit it or not. And, yeah, we all can claim each other that "you have been brain-washed". And you can claim everybody else in the world is ignorant when you watch more Fox news later just like if I watch too much Chinese central TV channel.


[edit on 1-1-2005 by proteinx]

Frankly speaking, I think most American Marians or troops....most of them, from what I saw on TV instead of on Movies, act really suck. 99% they are going to call for air strike before they even WANT TO do anything. You must have watched too many Hollywood movies when you think every marian act like hero.

Marians...? For someone going around making fun of an entire nation's intelligence, you don't seem to be too bright yourself.

And, I have no idea why you make claim that Chinese are marginally better than they were during Korea war. In fact, it is obvious bias sentence just like I claim that all high school American teenagers math score are below C-. One example I can give to you is that the guerilla war between China and Vietnam was the almost the most horrible and cruel war in the world in last 40 years. Don't forget the fact that American lost the war basically to Vietnamines and Chinese basically defeated them (Of course, I admit China withdrew the troops after they face threaten from Soviet Union). Besides, trainings inherited from communism system are crueler than what looks like in western countries.

Wait, I'm biased and you're making an idiotic claim like all Americans get C's in math?

America is home to the best colleges in the world. We're the richest nation. We've been the most technologically advanced nation. We design the best military weapons. We're all bad at math, though, right?

The war between China and Vietnam was hardly great. It lasted a few months. The Chinese had 120,000 troops, that's more then twice as many as America ever had in Vietnam, and we only had troops in the South. We never tried an invasion like the Chinese did. Worst of all, the Chinese got a whopping 25 miles into Vietnam, and the Vietnamese were able to take the war into China for how long it lasted.

What exactly did China succeed at during the war to call it a victory?

And cruelty has never made great military units. If it did, every petty dictator in the world would have the most disciplined troops. The Iraqis certainly wouldn't have fled.

The only left advantage of American military is the high tech weapons. Unfortunately, even NASA has 1/3 engineers are Indians or Chinese. And the number of American-born scientist is dramatically shrink in last 10 years. (In fact, even in 1950s or 1960s, most famous scientist in America were not American born either-------Those who helped to design and gave innovative idea of atomic bomb, super sonic jet plane, satellites or even Apollo space ship were barely American-born scientists-----if you do little history fact check. When most industrial innovative R&D shift to Europe or Asia, I don�t see a reason the military R&D can still keep strong. So, god knows this only advantage can keep how long for Americans.

Yup, we use a bunch of Chinese and Indian scientists to do all of our work. The Chinese are just brilliant, right? That's why they couldn't even reverse engineer a C-130.

By the way, the other argument you made about Taiwan was completely ignorant about the basic fact and relationship between China and Taiwan. (There is a long thread about China and Taiwan in this website, please check that before you even want to claim anything about China and Taiwan, please). China DONOT want to destroy Taiwan by war because the Chinese consider Taiwan as part of China, that is the reason most time China just threaten Taiwan away from independence movement but never really did anything before things get really ugly. That does NOT mean that China is not capable of wipe out Taiwan. If things go ugly, Taiwan can only stand up to few hours even according to Rand�s report.

China would take weeks to invade Taiwan, and that's based on their own biased simulations, not taking into account American intervention. That's pretty pathetic for a nation the size of China.

They could not gain air dominance, or even naval dominance over Taiwan in days, let alone hours.

I never said China intended to destroy Taiwan, either. I never really said anything near what you seem to be claiming.

Keep enjoy your government's propaganda. We all live in the systems of propaganda--whether you admit it or not. And, yeah, we all can claim each other that "you have been brain-washed". And you can claim everybody else in the world is ignorant when you watch more Fox news later just like if I watch too much Chinese central TV channel.

The only people who say this are those that have never come to America. Is that just a coincidence?

I suppose the constant bashing of Bush, and the Micheal Moore's, and hell, even the fact that I have access to any site on the internet I want doesn't mean anything, right?

I've never seen anyone in America get arrested for undermining the Iraq War, or the broader War on Terrorism. I think Micheal Moore would have been dead before he made his movie.

Originally posted by proteinx
Frankly speaking, I think most American Marians or troops....most of them, from what I saw on TV instead of on Movies, act really suck. 99% they are going to call for air strike before they even WANT TO do anything. You must have watched too many Hollywood movies when you think every marian act like hero.

And, I have no idea why you make claim that Chinese are marginally better than they were during Korea war. In fact, it is obvious bias sentence just like I claim that all high school American teenagers math score are below C-. One example I can give to you is that the guerilla war between China and Vietnam was the almost the most horrible and cruel war in the world in last 40 years. Don't forget the fact that American lost the war basically to Vietnamines and Chinese basically defeated them (Of course, I admit China withdrew the troops after they face threaten from Soviet Union). Besides, trainings inherited from communism system are crueler than what looks like in western countries.

The only left advantage of American military is the high tech weapons. Unfortunately, even NASA has 1/3 engineers are Indians or Chinese. And the number of American-born scientist is dramatically shrink in last 10 years. (In fact, even in 1950s or 1960s, most famous scientist in America were not American born either-------Those who helped to design and gave innovative idea of atomic bomb, super sonic jet plane, satellites or even Apollo space ship were barely American-born scientists-----if you do little history fact check. When most industrial innovative R&D shift to Europe or Asia, I don�t see a reason the military R&D can still keep strong. So, god knows this only advantage can keep how long for Americans.

By the way, the other argument you made about Taiwan was completely ignorant about the basic fact and relationship between China and Taiwan. (There is a long thread about China and Taiwan in this website, please check that before you even want to claim anything about China and Taiwan, please). China DONOT want to destroy Taiwan by war because the Chinese consider Taiwan as part of China, that is the reason most time China just threaten Taiwan away from independence movement but never really did anything before things get really ugly. That does NOT mean that China is not capable of wipe out Taiwan. If things go ugly, Taiwan can only stand up to few hours even according to Rand�s report.

No other words, your argument about Taiwan and China alone has demonstrated you know very little about China.

Keep enjoy your government's propaganda. We all live in the systems of propaganda--whether you admit it or not. And, yeah, we all can claim each other that "you have been brain-washed". And you can claim everybody else in the world is ignorant when you watch more Fox news later just like if I watch too much Chinese central TV channel.


[edit on 1-1-2005 by proteinx]

Most soldiers I have read about are actually very decent, hard-working guys. It takes professionalism to run the best military on the face of the earth. Sure, there are your occassional idiots and assholes, but all militaries have those. You really think Chiense troops are all decent??? And you get your view of American troops from TV? No really, from the biased media who doesn't like the military!?

And NASA 1/3 Indians and Chinese!? Like D.B. said, America is home to some of the best colleges and universities in the world. The U.S. gov't plucks people from these into their research and development programs; and they do not outsource that stuff. The people who research and develop America's weapons are AMERICANS, some native-born, some foreign-born, whatever, they're Americans. And they cannot do such work if they come from a country considered an enemy of the United States.

Europe will NEVER be a major military power. They lack the $$$, and they bicker amongst each other too much. Nor will Asia. Maybe China in the future.

And "all America has left is high-tech weapons?" Hmmm, you seem to forget the training and committment the American troops have too.

[edit on 1-1-2005 by Broadsword20068]

Good, Good, if you realize that my claim that all american get C in math is stupid, then you shall realize that your claim about chinese is little better than 50 years ago is same stupid. get it? C-level-math-and-brain-washed you.

Your arguments about vietnam and China again shows your funny logic. After the chinese officially announced "punishment", within one week China reached their capital. Yes, the war last for about 10 years, It was Vietnam being dragged in the war and had no chance to develop economy, NOT Chinese. Chinese began to reform economy system and it started to soar since 1978. You simply did not get the basic fact. Chinese later use those battle field to do rotations for troops to practice.

Regarding your questions about what did China do in WWII, you just has no idea China alone made Japan had to use 70% of its troops stay in the mainland,---simply because Chinese never stop fighting and China is too big for Japan. So Japanese never got chance to attack Soviet Union or kept more troops in South East Asia.----That means Soviet Union never need to worry about their back so they can concentrate on Europe, that means German had to face strong pressure from Soviet Union. Beside, Germen, most people I know, admit they were defeated by Russian, not by you.
So, go back read some history book before you yell here about WWII. People use to say American is idiot about history, that is so true from your performance up to now.


HAHA, you argument about training, is especially funny, you only know about Iraq, do you?

And, do you know why NASA has to hire a bunch of Chinese and Indian to do all the work for top level project? simply you can not find enough smart American-born people. And thinking about attacking China with Chinese every where in USA research projects? what a nut.

I know Fox news is your favourite, that is fine for me. Jut let you know all the world is joking about that. Sorry, I am a traveller, I am sure I have been more USA places than you do. you might only stay in a small village in the southern yelling with your redneck fellows that Jesus name you guys to rule the world. Ha, keep doing it. Most American I know feel funny about you southern guys. You shall really seperate from USA and dont tarnish the good name of 'Great America" if there is one.





[edit on 1-1-2005 by proteinx]

[edit on 1-1-2005 by proteinx]

Good, Good, if you realize that my claim that all american get C in math is stupid, then you shall realize that your claim about chinese is little better than 50 years ago is same stupid. get it? C-level-math-and-brain-washed you.

China's military budget is really as meager as ever. They still keep a massive army. Nothing points to a major increase in training.

Your arguments about vietnam and China again shows your funny logic. After the chinese officially announced "punishment", within one week China reached their capital. Yes, the war last for about 10 years, It was Vietnam being dragged in the war and had no chance to develop economy, NOT Chinese. Chinese began to reform economy system and it started to soar since 1978. You simply did not get the basic fact. Chinese later use those battle field to do rotations for troops to practice.

The Chinese went 25 miles into Vietnam.

Regarding your questions about what did China do in WWII, you just has no idea China alone made Japan had to use 70% of its troops stay in the mainland,---simply because Chinese never stop fighting and China is too big for Japan. So Japanese never got chance to attack Soviet Union or kept more troops in South East Asia.----That means Soviet Union never need to worry about their back so they can concentrate on Europe, that means German had to face strong pressure from Soviet Union. Beside, Germen, most people I know, admit they were defeated by Russian, not by you.
So, go back read some history book before you yell here about WWII. People use to say American is idiot about history, that is so true from your performance up to now.

The Japanese never had any intention of attacking the Soviets, and they made that perfectly clear. They had no reason to, unlike attacking America. They didn't even want to actual fight America.

And I never asked what role China played in WW2, so you had no questions to answer.

HAHA, you argument about training, is especially funny, you only know about Iraq, do you?

I suppose you're talking about when I said cruelty didn't lead to well trained troops...

Go take a look at great militaries in the world. The Macedonians, the Romans, the Spartans...None of them were cruel to their troops.

The Chinese have never had a well trained military force. They, like Russia, have always relied on overwhelming numbers and geography to keep them safe.

And, do you know why NASA has to hire a bunch of Chinese and Indian to do all the work for top level project? simply you can not find enough smart American-born people. And thinking about attacking China with Chinese every where in USA research projects? what a nut

You know, how about a source to back up any of these claims? A real, credible source that states 1/3 of NASA is Chinese and Indian.

I know Fox news is your favourite, that is fine for me. Jut let you know all the world is joking about that. Sorry, I am a traveller, I am sure I have been more USA places than you do. you might only stay in a small village in the southern yelling with your redneck fellows that Jesus name you guys to rule the world. Ha, keep doing it. Most American I know feel funny about you southern guys. You shall really seperate from USA and dont tarnish the good name of 'Great America" if there is one.

I'm from New York, and I get most of my news from the BBC.

It's funny that you'd keep calling us brainwashed, without even addressing anything I said that would make such a thing impossible.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068


Europe will NEVER be a major military power. They lack the $$$, and they bicker amongst each other too much. Nor will Asia. Maybe China in the future.


[edit on 1-1-2005 by Broadsword20068]

Actually the GDP of JUST the EU let alone all of the other countries that are lining up to join... is higher than than the US by about.5 trillion dollars
Once Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Turkey and Ukraine join than expect the EU's lead to increase by quite a large margin.

Belarus will probably not join as they are in the russians pocket

They have a larger GDP, but they have a smaller GDP per capita. Adding poor nations won't make them richer.