What is with all the "Christianity-Debunking" attempt threads?

reply to post by count66

Originally posted by count66
I do have a baseball

Christ saved me from a life of addiction - nothing else did or nothing else has ever kept me clean.

Me and at least countless thousands.

Thats bigger then any baseball

I find this to be a particular powerful point. I have seen chrisitanity influence many people in a positive way. It seems it can be a force for good when kept in check, one that is also capable of extreme evil, quod erat demonstrandum; the crusades and holy wars of the history books like Hitler's anti-Semitism.

It's like atomic theory which generally is good but then someone comes along and builds and A-Bomb.

reply to post by AshleyD

they will even out your points for you to bring you out of the negative.

Ahhh! Thank you again! Notice my BTS points? Intrepid took care of them.




You brought up good points earlier. If we stand up for what we believe, we can expect opposition from those who don't agree. Why complain about it? Just move on and let go of what others think. If we can do it with civility it recommends us to others.

reply to post by Good Wolf

I find this to be a particular powerful point. I have seen chrisitanity influence many people in a positive way. It seems it can be a force for good when kept in check, one that is also capable of extreme evil, quod erat demonstrandum; the crusades and holy wars of the history books like Hitler's anti-Semitism.

It's like atomic theory which generally is good but then someone comes along and builds and A-Bomb.

Anything that is used fanatically can be destructive. Pretty much anytime that man in involved in something, there are going to be destroyers. Often times the greatest intentions lead to the worst of outcomes.

I think a lot of the anti-Christian feeling on ATS/BTS can be attributed to the fact that it is an English-speaking conspiracy website, and the Christian faith is associated with power in English-speaking areas.

That is not to excuse a lot of what I see here.

One thing that I see as a constant theme is attributing the sins of the past, or of the few, to all Christians, without any recognition that there are differences of opinion among Christians on many issues.

Another is a lack of separation between the political and secular structures of the various sects and the belief system that is Christianity. This ties in with the first point also, in that people will argue that belief in Jesus is bad because of the Crusades, or similarly absurd connections.

It's already been pointed out, but I definitely notice the trolls who go to a thread that talks about a specific issue in Christianity to bash religion in general. I would however point out that this trend goes both ways – it's the one area on ATS that the Christians get on my nerves as much as the atheists in the religion wars. For example, a thread about the legalization of gay marriage does not call for a biblical exposition of why gay sex is a sin, any more than a thread on the impact of Marian apparitions on the Episcopal Church calls for references to witch burnings.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of people on ATS on both sides who seem to thrive on fanning the flames of hatred between the religious and the non-religious, and I see an incredible number of willfully baiting/disingenuous threads started with no apparent purpose other than to attract other trolls.

In my opinion, there is legitimate reason to examine both Christianity as a belief system and its political structures on a conspiracy website. But both can be done without the bashing that happens.

There is also legitimate reason to examine the radical materialist/"scientific" belief system that sees in religion nothing more than Marx's "opiate of the masses". Religion can be used by those in power to keep the populace appeased – it can also be the vessel for organization of change in the world. I see the extreme atheism of many posters here as actually supportive of the status quo, in that it demonizes an entire range of human experience and cuts us off from a set of institutions that could serve as a balance in our world.

Threads that are started specifically to "debunk" Christianity are at least in part a reaction to the tendency of some Christians here and elsewhere to patronize those of us who do not believe, or who practice a different religion. I do not understand why it is ever a good idea to tell another poster that they can expect to burn in hell eternally for their actions or words. And it's true that most of the Christians on ATS wouldn't do that, but it does happen.

And I think perhaps the best reaction to threads like that is simply to ignore them, unless you know the poster's history and think that he or she is genuinely interested in a dialogue on the issue. I have yet to see anything new on such threads – they simply rehash the same arguments that have been floating around for ages, and popularized by things like Zeitgeist.

Worth addressing the first time or two, maybe. But not for the three hundredth time.

My other advice, if I may, to Christians here who are offended by the pervasive anti-Christian attitudes, is to try to realize that you can learn from our spiritual lives as well. To try to view with some respect the paths that others are following – even if you think they are the wrong ones. And remember that a spiritual life is always a journey, and not one that can be judged from the outside. Even those of us who would rather call our inner development "psychology" or "emotional growth" or some such thing – the label isn't that important. Try to look beyond the labels people are using and see if there's not something you can identify with or even respect.

That was a lot of words, and I don't think I actually expressed half of what I feel about the religious divides on this board.

For the record, I am agnostic, I struggle to believe in anything beyond the material world but have let go of the absolute atheism of my earlier life. I was raised without religion, I am a strongly moral person with a capacity for real generosity, and I am fascinated by the human spiritual life in all its forms.

It is to be expected that the one true religion would be attacked more so then the others. This statement alone read by many will rise up anger in them to defend and to attack.

Matthew 24:7-12 (New International Version)

7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.

----------------------------------------------------------------


2 Peter 3:3

3 "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."


----------------------------------------------------------------

To the poster who said islam is the same as christianity:

islam: convert or kill the entire world by force, no free will, kill your own brothers if they convert away from the faith. CONQUOR THROUGH FORCE - through deceit (fake peace treaties to bring a lull in fighting to re-arm)

(to anyone who denies the above statements you are the same as the luke-warm-professed-to-be-christian who does not know or read his bible- to deny the koran says convert or kill the entire world, is to not know your own religious text's)

christianity: convert without force, free will, show each other love, turn the other cheek, love your neighbor as yourself.

------------------------------------------------------------------

It will not matter how much reasoning i put in this post, to those who read this that already hate christianity - they are poor, pitiful and blind -



Rev 3:14

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realise that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Anything that is used fanatically can be destructive. Pretty much anytime that man in involved in something, there are going to be destroyers. Often times the greatest intentions lead to the worst of outcomes.

Then add an agenda and you have a recipe for disaster.

reply to post by Stormdancer777

I understand, Christians spend a lot of time arguing among themselves too, in regards to doctrine.

I came to the realization one day, Christ didn't come to start a new religion.

Yes, it leads one to reason: wouldn't it be far more successful IF Jesus actually really HAD started religion? For it has served to divide the masses rather than unite them.

reply to post by Good Wolf

Then add an agenda and you have a recipe for disaster.

Yes, there is ALWAYS that!!!

I believe that Jesus actually came to set us free, but until we can accept that truly, there will be problems. Perhaps debunking Christianity is a first step? But...even then, it only will work for those who are ready to let it go.

Originally posted by americandingbat
For example, a thread about the legalization of gay marriage does not call for a biblical exposition of why gay sex is a sin, any more than a thread on the impact of Marian apparitions on the Episcopal Church calls for references to witch burnings.

Sir, this statement right here...this is what religion is all about, to not bring scripture into a thread in which the sin God hates more then any other sin is ludicrous. EVERY EMPIRE IN HISTORY to where homosexuality runs rampant FALLS AND CRUMBLES - OF COURSE its relevant.

it is brought up, because the true battle for the souls of mankind are fought with realizations and words, to say that Christianity cannot talk about why gay sex is a sin, is to say Christianity has nothing to offer, shut them up, sit them down, and be quiet.


WHY GOD HATES SIN: he is not limiting your freedoms for sake of limiting and ruining your "fun". Every sin on this earth carries with it A: Pleasure. B: a negative consequence. God who only wants best for you does not want you inviting negative influences in on your life. Sin is a ever-increasing-plague where by your own strength you stop 1 sin, another will rise in its place. If you do not fight this Sin and believe it does not exist, it will grow exponentially until you find yourself thinking, this life is crap, im crap, this isn't worth it, i want to kill myself.

SIN = DEATH

God see's in the future, not in our time sense, so what is a tiny sin to us, is a very very serious death threat to your life, because it spreads like a plague over your body ridden on silk sateen sheets that feel O-So-Good, until they catch on fire and melt to your body....

reply to post by daersoulkeeper

To the poster who said islam is the same as christianity:

islam: convert or kill the entire world by force, no free will, kill your own brothers if they convert away from the faith. CONQUOR THROUGH FORCE - through deceit (fake peace treaties to bring a lull in fighting to re-arm)

(to anyone who denies the above statements you are the same as the luke-warm-professed-to-be-christian who does not know or read his bible- to deny the koran says convert or kill the entire world, is to not know your own religious text's)

christianity: convert without force, free will, show each other love, turn the other cheek, love your neighbor as yourself.

------------------------------------------------------------------

It will not matter how much reasoning i put in this post, to those who read this that already hate christianity - they are poor, pitiful and blind -

Wow.

You can post as many bible passages as you want, it does not change the issue.

You come out right off on the defensive, which isn't a good look, nor is it civil. Calling people poor pitiful and blind for having different beliefs makes your entire Religion look like bigoted egotists, and guess what, a lot of the world already perceives you as such because of that attitude.


The issue here is not the idealogical differences between Christianity and Islam, which you haven't seem to have grasped, but the issues of their rights on this forum.

They are both Religions, albeit vastly different, and they are both free game for discussion, debate and criticism. Just because you post a wall of bible quotes does not mean your Religion can get some kind of immunity from the debate.

Please understand, it does not matter how vehemently you believe in something, in this case Religion, it does not make it untouchable or immune to criticism.



I'm going to quote myself again here, and please absorb these words.

When I get told I'm going to hell etc etc. by some pompous zealot who spends more time singing hymns than doing good works, then that angers me.

I feel like saying, 'Please, if your God exists, stand us both before him and let him judge who followed the teachings of his Son more closely'.

[edit on 7-2-2009 by fooffstarr]

[edit on 122828p://bSunday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

I understand, Christians spend a lot of time arguing among themselves too, in regards to doctrine.

I came to the realization one day, Christ didn't come to start a new religion.

Yes, it leads one to reason: wouldn't it be far more successful IF Jesus actually really HAD started religion? For it has served to divide the masses rather than unite them.

Now that's a deep subject.

it seems as they cant find evidence of aliens so they are trying to debunk god .

Maybe its an ego thing? Stuff you religion people i proved you all wrong hahahah....!!!!


maybe they are jelouse that people beleive in something so strong?

maybe it could be they are yet to find god in there heart and the devil is driving there soul?

who know to be honest they just cant except people beleive in god and dont concentrate there energy on there own beliefs and want to make every one elses life misrable.

people want to see hardcore evidence and just cant beleive thats how scripture was given from the word of god and it has been passed down through the years.

Originally posted by SumnerKagan

Originally posted by GTORick
A lot of people find it is a sport.

You are absolutely correct! That is how it seems. Like people are actually "digging" for anything negative, so it can be posted, and then stroked by others.
And, make no mistake, it is an attempt at spreading a view of hate directed toward this belief system.

Maybe you're wrong about that. Maybe people aren't trying to 'push your buttons' at all. Maybe people see something wrong in the world and want to change it. And it isn't just christianity that needs to change, it's any religion who claims to be the 'only' correct religion and/or way to 'heaven'.

You mentioned in the OP that 'christianity has done so much good'...would you mind, please, listing all of this good? Because as far as I can tell, missionary groups coming from every direction have one goal they consider the utmost priority and that is to convert more christians, not feed the starving or clothe and shelter the homeless. They will build a church in a needy village before they build one home for a family.

There are more 'bleeding heart' people in the world today who claim NO religious affiliation who participate in charities all over their communities and worldwide.

As far as 'attacking mostly christians', it's the largest religion, at this moment, so of course it has the most critics.

Because of the fact that information is so widespread, and most christian religion groups allow their members to enjoy the freedom of accessing this information, christianity will probably not be the largest religion in the world for long. The religion who will stand against the information age is the more violent and threatening one. Not that christianity doesn't invoke a certain amount of fear into its members, but not nearly as much as is needed to keep them in place once the veil is lifted from their eyes.

I am really thankful for ATS for several reasons ...On this subject especially..
For one ...this is the only place you can discuss it indepth without a Mod sitting next to you thumping you over the head in every post and erasing behind you ...sometimes even locking the threads ......

I think they do a great job of allowing us all our freedom of speech as much as possible before stepping in ..(there really is a time for them to step in and they do when it is very derogatory) >..
We are not kids (well ok some of you arnt totally mature yet) ...I think we have enough crackdowns on our rights and our freedoms out here in the real world dont you think ? >>It is getting rediculous even...

I think that people really do need to be a bit more respectable towards eachother ....(being respectable really is a golden rule for all beliefs (even Athiests) ...........
If we could all just respect eachother then the Mods would not even have to babysit all of us adults to make sure we dont get out of hand ..(but unfortunately not everyone is going to be able to control their mouths and tempers here) .............so because of a few ..we have to have Mods .(thanks Mods I for one do appreciate what you have to do here at ATS) .

As far as the fact so many posts have been made about the bible,Jesus,God,Etc .....I think it is a good thing ..hey everyone is reading their bible (maybe for the wrong reasons ..just to debunk it lol) ..but they are certainly getting informed by it (it will also stimulate their brains and hopefully eventually even their hearts and this is a good thing) ..

Also the Christians are having to dust off their bibles that they should have read years ago instead of just believing the preachers teachers or even stuff a friend has told them .....and for once now even they are back reading it and learning it again (maybe for the wrong reasons too lol like debunking the debunkers LOL) ...but still their brains are also being stimulated and hopefully their hearts are too ) ....And everyone will end up for the better from threads like those ...
Everyone learns something from those threads ..once everyone gets past the insults etc then they get really deep ..and are very educational in the end ......
I learn alot from them .And I know others do too .

There is always going to be some bad apple though who wants to spoil the whole bunch ..(those who let their anger and ego get the best of them).
I say just get the hammer out when needed ....and let us all learn self control ...that is what is needed around here more than anything ..
LEARN SELF CONTROL people so no one has to make you control


I used to tell my youngest son who has a temper problem and a rebellion problem ........I would tell him when he was a teen that if you do not learn self control ..someone will make you learn it ..Not only do parents make you learn it (by enforcing the rules) but when your older the cops,the Gov,God,your wife etc ....they will make you learn it ......so dont wait till you end up in jail or something where your forced to learn it ..
Just learn it now ..Get yourself under control ...then no one will have reason to force the issue ....................

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
Why is it happening, and why is it ok?

I don't understand why it is so inscrutable to you.

Most of the posters on this board come from countries dominated by the Christian religion. There are many who enter adulthood disappointed and scarred by what they endured as children in the name of "Christianity." These people are angry and rightfully so. They didn't suffer such indignities at the hands of any other religion.

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
First of all, IF there are threads out there, that are attacking other religions, I wasn't able to find them. So, at the very least, Christianity seems to be assaulted more than any other belief system on this site.

I beg to differ. Islam and Judaism have been attacked.

Originally posted by SumnerKagan
Second, why is this happening? Why are there so many people bent on the downfall of Christianity? All religions have components that are debatable. All religions have histories that are less than pristine. At one time or another all religions have been twisted by men, used for personal gain, and have been responsible for much human suffering. But, on the other hand, few have done as much good as Christianity. Definitely a double-edged sword.

Please elucidate on all the good Christianity has done and against what yardstick this "good" is measured.


[edit on 8-2-2009 by argilla11]

There are real problems with many of the presumptions on both sides of this discussion.

How many ATS posters here are as conversant in Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.. as they are Christianity?

When someone tells me, "I am a Christian", I would like to believe that means that this person follows the examples and teachings of Jesus the Christ.

But the body and doctrine of an enormous percentage of so-called Christians, are driven by "the letter of the law" of the Old Testament, as the justification for moral superiority, judgement filled words and deeds.

Old Testament "Christians"... you had best read the books of The New Testament. THAT is where you will learn how to live the example of The Master, Jesus The Christ. If you do NOT hew to Christ's words and teachings, then please, CALL YOURSELVES SOMETHING OTHER THAN CHRISTIANS. Christians follow Jesus Christ... PERIOD.

I am amazed how many folks who call themselves Christians, go to churches and follow pastors, preachers or priests, that DO NOT FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST's example.

The "law" of the Od Testament is the same scriptural bastardization used to justify the criminality of the man from Galilee, Jesus, and then coerce his execution on the cross!

That is not Christianity. It is anti-Christian. Read the New Testament... please... then start living the way Jesus taught you to live, and treat others the way Jesus treated those he had contact with. Then you WILL BE Christians.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I think that people really do need to be a bit more respectable towards eachother ....(being respectable really is a golden rule for all beliefs (even Athiests) ...........
If we could all just respect eachother then the Mods would not even have to babysit all of us adults to make sure we dont get out of hand ..(but unfortunately not everyone is going to be able to control their mouths and tempers here)

Thats the main issue here I think, and you are the first to really touch on it.

It is in no way wrong to debate Christianity / God / The Bible, as long as it is done in a civil manner. As an Athiest, as I've said previously, I don't believe in Christian beliefs, but I do have respect for you that do stand so strongly for them.

Standing up for what you believe in is a strong showing of character.

I tried to encourage all those in the Faith and Spirituality forum to use a bit of decorum and engage each other in a respectable fashion.

The prevalence of 'arrogance' in Christian vs Atheist debate was my attempt, but both sides accused me of arrogance myself, abused me, attacked me and basically drove me with pitchfork and burning torch out of the forum forever.

So I've given up on ATS becoming a place of composed, thoughtful Religious debate. It won't happen. There will always be tempers, attitudes and arrogance.

However, if posters like yourselves who are reading this ( and from what I've seen in this topic, there are many level headed, civil posters for both Atheist and Christian causes) can continue to keep up that standard, things may one day change.

Regardless of what belief system we follow, we are all human. We all (hopefully) live for the betterment of our race and our planet. So why allow something like Religion divide us? If anything, belief systems, no matter how different or opposed, should unite us.

[edit on 8-2-2009 by fooffstarr]

First of all ATS is not a religious board, it is worldwide board, for all people of all races, and it seems that the christians on here do not understand that. Their opinion is not the only one that matters. People can debunk whatever they like after all this is a place for discussing conspiracy.

If you do not like what people are saying, deal with it, imagine what homosexuals would have to deal with while reading some of posts by some of the posters on this board.