Enough is enough, what is going on with Israel?

Originally posted by Terapin

Why is it that Zionists always try to avoid a sincere discussion on UN Resolutions that were agreed to, and signed by Israel?

I don't know about Zionists, but it's my opinion and that of many millions, that the UN is a club with a lot of vile dictator members who in sheer numbers outweigh the countries where leadership is chosen by their populace. And a little noted point, there are dozens of Muslim states, one Jewish dominated one.

Reprimands are made against Israel at every opportunity, but other countries where horrific government sanctioned genocide goes are are for some reason given a free pass.

Check the record of the UN for the last few decades against the known wars and decimation of dissent and see who they have decided which countries are naughty and which are nice.


Mike F

reply to post by mmiichael


Once again you choose to avoid the discussion by changing the subject.

You state that you do not like the UN despite their efforts to end the genocide in Darfur. Their work in Kosovo and elsewhere. Lets pick a country whos opinion you might respect when it comes to UN resolutions. How about we pick Israel. As you seek to defend Israels position why not choose their opinion on UN resolutions. Israel agreed to the aforementioned resolutions and signed them. That is a fact. So, lets look at Israel and their signed resolutions which they entered into freely. They had every opportunity to decline to sign them. They could have dissented if they chose to.

Lets discuss why Israel chooses to violate the very resolutions that they signed. Lets discuss Israels violation of UN Resolution 181 which created the State of Israel. Lets also discuss why Israel chooses to violate International laws and the Geneva conventions. Or are you simply going to ignore the topic and continue to change the subject?

You brought up Darfur, why wont you discuss Israels part in how they profit from the genocide going on there? Or is that a taboo subject even though you brought it up?

[edit on 7/2/09 by Terapin]

Israel does what thins it has to do to survive in a hostile region where it's neighbours have attacked it because it exists. The UN has three dozen Muslim countries and and 50 dictatorships that routinely vote reprimands on Israel.

My question was and is, why is the solid outrage and indignation and picking on every transgression reserved for Israel.

Does this mean you support what China does to Tibet. Don't you think you friends the United Nations should do something about the situation.

Don't you think millions being slaughtered in Africa in places like the Congo and Sudan are outrages. Where is your list of violation of UN sanctions and reprimands for them.

Why do you have a problem with Israel and no one else?
You don't answer the question and do whatever possible to deflect from it.


Mike F

reply to post by mmiichael


I have answered your questions. I specifically mentioned Africa and Tibet in my posts. The problem is that this thread is about Israel and you keep trying to derail the thread.

YES there are numerous problems all over the world. Does it make it OK for one nation to violate human rights just because another does? No it doesn't. The Genocide in Darfur is indeed tragic. Israel can find some blame in that because they profit from arms sales there. Do you defend Israels part in the genocide in Darfur perhaps?

Yes Tibet should be free, and as I indicated I support two non profit groups that help improve the lives of Tibetan women and children. Unlike you I imagine, I have actually traveled to China and spent time with Tibetan people in exile. I do know something about the subject.

Just to clue you in, because you obviously know very little about the subject, there are indeed UN resolutions about both Darfur and Tibet. Apparently you also know very little about Israel and the Mid East as it is reflected in your posts. Perhaps you simply swallow Zionist propaganda without thinking, or doing any research on the subject. That is always a bad place to start your defense from.

Again, This thread is about ISRAEL, not Africa, not Tibet but Israel, yet you refuse to discuss it. Please, either stay on topic or give up. The truth is that Zionists have no legitimate defense for the human rights violations perpetrated by Israel other than excuses and distractions. You have proven my point. Or will you try and change the topic again and further prove my point.


[edit on 8/2/09 by Terapin]

On Topic:

Recently the Israelis bulldozed the farmland in Gaza. Strawberries were plowed under and the irrigation systems ruined. Orange trees that took many years to grow were crushed into the ground. Almost 60% of the viable farmland for Gaza has been destroyed.

Proving that the real goal of Israel is to starve the Gazans into abandoning what remains of their lands.

Because there is no point to bulldozing farms if the objective is to stop rocket attacks.

A reminder: collective punishment, including forced starvation, is a war crime.

A survey, recently conducted by the international pollster GlobeScan and published by the BBC World Service, determined that, Germany was the most liked nation and, as was the case last year, Iran, Israel, Pakistan and North Korea were rated most negatively.

Why is Israel grouped with the other nations at the bottom of the list?
Well compare the actions of those nations and it becomes clear. They are all well known for human rights violations and disregard for international law. I guess it can't be just me that thinks Israel needs to change it's behavior.

The thread is always about Israel. The same posters always are spend their days and nights looking for anything and everthing that can portray Israel and the Jews in a disparaging light.

What a group like Hamas, Muslims, to dozens of truly vicious leaders and rogue states in the world has done wrong is of no interest to yo.


You know that, I know that, people who have left this forum in disgust know that too.

Please do not bother responding to this.

We know what you have to say already.

reply to post by mmiichael


So why is it then that Israeli defenders never have any logical argument other than to avoid the topic. If you think your position is worthy then why run from it?

Why hide from the facts? If Israel is so benevolent then why cant you offer up something other than excuses and changes of topic? Why cant you reply in a logical fashion. That is what a meaningful discussion is all about. State your case, offer facts, prove your point that Israel is such a benevolent state. Failing that you are simply blowing smoke.

There are indeed threads about Darfur on ATS, and other trouble spots around the world. In them you find discussion, reason, and evidence. Why is it that Israeli apologists always play the victim card but never respond with anything meaningful? It seems very odd that you offer nothing to support your position other than excuses and distractions.

Zionists fear facts it seems. They never will discuss Laws, the UN Resolution that created Israel, or why Palestine is not allowed to form their own state. Sadly it seems that most Zionists don't even know the history and facts behind the Mid East crisis. They just stick to an emotional stubborn position without ever discussing it.

[edit on 8/2/09 by Terapin]

[edit on 8/2/09 by Terapin]

Originally posted by Terapin


Zionists fear facts it seems. They never will discuss Laws, the UN Resolution that created Israel, or why Palestine is not allowed to form their own state. Sadly it seems that most Zionists don't even know the history and facts behind the Mid East crisis. They just stick to an emotional stubborn position without ever discussing it.

Not everyone who has anything uncritical of Israel has to be labelled a Zionist.

You fear facts and are obviously terrified by them. What youtry to pass off as fact is propagated BS. There is a Palestinian state - it's called Jordan. The Arabs in the Sinai peninsula region that became the state of Israel rejected the opportunity to form their own state. The so-named Palestinians took the wrongheaded advice of the invading Arabs to remain on the sidelines waiting for Israel to be destroyed. They're still waiting.

The West bank and Gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt until they declared war on Israel and rolled in their tanks. Israel repelled them and kept them as buffers.

I wouldn't bother to debate someone like you because you are so ignorant of the actual history it would take a massive education on your part to even begin a debate of the issues.

It's bad form around here to get personal. But I see so much blind vicious hatred under the pretense of political discussion it's nauseating.

Find out what you're talking about and then discuss foreign politics.

I expect an inane reply with some reference to the UN (dictators social club) to this.


MF

Yes I am ignorant, that is why you choose not to discuss Israels behavior which is the topic of this thread. You will mention every country except Israel when it comes to any kind of wrong doing. It is always someone else's fault.
So you wont discuss human rights violations by Israel because it is Jordans fault, or Africas fault, or Chinas fault. Maybe Elvis Presley caused Israel to horribly radiate thousands of Jewish children for a science experiment. Palestinians must be evil because they want what is legally theirs. Those who deny Palestinians the right to their legal property are Zionists who seek to eradicate Palestinians from the map. But then again you wont talk about it. As usual. Distractions and excuses. The sad thing is that Arabs and Jews are cousins. History tells us this, Religion tells us this, and despite Jews being very watered down with outside blood, genetics tells us this.

I strongly believe that Israel has a right to exist. But they do not have the right to rule with terror and take whatever they wish. Peace will only come when Israel realizes that they are not better than everyone else. It is very easy to blame the oppressed and be smug about it.

Watch How Evil Palestinans Pick Parsley
Human Rights Workers try to prevent Israeli forces from shooting farmers who are harvesting crops on their farm. Farmers are evil. Kill them quick before they plant broccoli. Oh the horror.

Quoting you from your first post in this thread "You can only break a truce so many times before you get spanked. Hamas just doesn't seem to want to behave."

The recent crisis in Gaza was started when Israel broke the truce not Hamas. This was fact checked by the major news outlets and even Mark Regev, the official Israeli spokesman agreed that Hamas did not break the truce. Israel has a long history of violating the terms of their own deals. Terms which they themselves set, yet you choose to blame the Hamas for their behavior and ignore Israeli behavior. Hypocritical???

That is why Israel is getting "spanked" by the public at large.

reply to post by Terapin


Oh my God that video is so sad....I hope no one get's injured.

Originally posted by Terapin

Yes I am ignorant, that is why you choose not to discuss Israels behavior which is the topic of this thread. You will mention every country except Israel when it comes to any kind of wrong doing. It is always someone else's fault.
So you wont discuss human rights violations by Israel because it is Jordans fault, or Africas fault, or Chinas fault. Maybe Elvis Presley caused Israel to horribly radiate thousands of Jewish children for a science experiment. Palestinians must be evil because they want what is legally theirs. Those who deny Palestinians the right to their legal property are Zionists who seek to eradicate Palestinians from the map. But then again you wont talk about it. As usual. Distractions and excuses. The sad thing is that Arabs and Jews are cousins. History tells us this, Religion tells us this, and despite Jews being very watered down with outside blood, genetics tells us this.

I strongly believe that Israel has a right to exist. But they do not have the right to rule with terror and take whatever they wish. Peace will only come when Israel realizes that they are not better than everyone else. It is very easy to blame the oppressed and be smug about it.

Israelis are always the topic of the thread these days.

You seek out whatever ammunition you can find from any source you can find, present it isolated and out of context, and call it fact.

Israel radiating thousands of children in an experiment, denial of Palestinians their legal property, seeking to eradicate Palestinians from the map (the millions of Palestinians in Jordan too?), and on and on.

Typing it doesn't make something true. Source, source, source?

"Watered down with outside blood", "genetics telling us Arabs and Jews are cousins"? This is such junior league racial babble it doesn't justify a comment.

Sorry, really trying not to fly off the handle.

I read a tirade filled with half truths and pure invention and scratch my head in wonder. You then claim people you label Zionists don't want to deal with the facts. I don't want to deal with whatever you just decide to pull out of your hat and call a fact.


There are people with a lot of time on their hands with little better to do than spew a lot of racist venom under the guise of political concern on the Internet these days.

Not just my observation. Many websites and blogs and 20 Youtube videos have shown this.

So it's a FACT.

Care to launch a counter claim with another FACT.


MF






MF

reply to post by mmiichael


You spoke about Hamas breaking the truce and being spanked. Ok Lets talk about that then. Israel publicly admitted that Hamas did not break the truce. The truth is that Israel broke the ceasefire and then went on to once again violate the Geneva Conventions. Israel always promotes the Geneva Conventions when it suites themselves, but seems to ignore them when they wish to.

You admit that you have no respect for the UN, but Israel does. They entered into several agreements with them. Israel is free to decline to enter any deal with the UN if they choose to. Israel has also participated in several negotiations that had nothing to do with the UN. Situations where they negotiated the details to their particular liking. Yet after negotiation their own deals, they went and broke them.

Are you saying that Israel can do what ever they please? That they can enter into a deal of their own making then ignore it? That they do not have to act with honor when negotiating?

The People of Gaza can trace their connection to the land back for many generations. They are not Jordanians who suddenly showed up there. Genetics prove a historical palestinian connection to the land. There is nothing racist about genetics. Arabs and Jews split apart when two brothers took a different direction according to Jewish religious text. What is racist about that?

What is out of context about Israelis shooting at Palestinian farmers and human rights workers who are simply trying to harvest their crops? What is out of context about Israel failing to live up to deals it enters into when the other side meets their obligations? What is out of context about Israel being caught using illegal weapons?

I currently live in the US although I have lived in several other countries. When the US does wrong, which seems to be often these days, I call them on it. I speak out against other nations whos behavior is inhumane, as you have also done in this thread. It seems that whenever someone points the finger of shame at Israel however, there are those who appear to make excuses for Israel and deny that Israel has done anything wrong. What about all the Jews both within Israel and outside of Israel who are speaking out against the current actions of Israel?

It is perfectly OK to take a position that is Pro Israel, but to deny that Israel has done wrong makes that position one of blind allegiance. Trying to sweep Israeli crimes under the rug does not hide that fact that they were committed.

Someone using the name Nekama posted this on a list in response to the usual accusations made against Israel. It's a good summary addressing of the many myths circulating.


MF

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1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Koran-imals don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?

2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?

3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?

4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?

5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?

6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?

7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?

8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?

9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?

10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?

11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?

reply to post by mmiichael


It is easy to lump all Arabs together and simply say that Palestinians can go live in Jordan. One could also say that Jews could go back to where they were before they established Israel. That neither solves the problem nor deals with the issues.

Lumping all Arabs together is like saying all black people are the same. Why couldn't the people of Soweto leave South Africa and go somewhere else? Why did apartheid in South Africa have to end? Why cant the people of Darfur simply move to Namibia, or Kenya?

The People of Gaza have ancestral ties to the land they were run out of. They seek only what was promised them by Israel. Your average Palestinian simply wants a safe place to raise their children, a good job, and freedom. Much like what your average Israeli wants. What is wrong with ending the occupation and returning the land to Palestinians? It is what Israel agreed to.

Palestinians were not savages living in filth like the poster you mentioned tried to claim. Perhaps it is worth looking at these historical photos to get a better understanding why Palestinians will not give up their rights to land that is theirs. Who are the people of Gaza, and why are they so upset?Keep in mind, that Hamas is willing to recognize the pre '67 borders and was indicating a more moderate position before the current Gaza crisis. They were involved in negotiating for peace along the lines that have been in place for quite some time. Hamas had kept up their part of the ceasefire and Israel admits this. So why did Israel fail to uphold its part in the cease fire and instead return to such violence? Some have suggested that Israel broke the ceasefire and bombarded Gaza to end this moderate stance Hamas was showing, so as to avoid any talk of a peaceful negotiation of land reform. Breaking the ceasefire, is one way that Israel could force a more hard line stance by Palestinians. Hamas was willing to behave and give peace a chance, Israel chose violence. Perhaps that is why in international polls about how good people feel about various nations, Israel is ranked near the bottom of the list.

If Israel were to signal a possible end to the occupation and aggression, and allow negotiations in good faith, things would be quite different. When they break their word time and time again, and never negotiate in good faith, it is no wonder their world image suffers.

As far as the post you quoted above, It is full of inaccuracies and statements that only serve to twist the truth and distract form the issues. I have seen similar twisted rants by people who simply hate Israel and can see no good in its existence. Both are simply ignorant.

[edit on 9/2/09 by Terapin]

Originally posted by mikellmikell
Were not supporting genocide were on the Israels side to defend themselves from agression. The Hamas loonies seem to be out to kill themselves and anybody else they can take with them. You can only break a truce so many times before you get spanked. Hamas just doesn't seem to want to behave. Pretty simple really.

mikell

You hit the nail on the head. If one wants to find modern day genocide, Africa would be a better location to focus your search.

Israel is blamed for many things. After all, they're the only nation in the world representative of Jews.

I've heard wild claims of genocide. I look at the claim, and quickly realize that the person has no idea of what genocide is.

Anytime Israel wants to engage in genocide, say against Gaza, they can easily, without breaking a sweat, kill at least 200,000 a week for weeks.

Anything less than that, and it's not genocide.

One may not like Israel targeting Hamas, who dresses in civilian clothes, and when killed, are counted as civilians, but that doesn't constitute "genocide."

The entire world needs to back off and tell Israel, Hamas, Hizballah, and the so-called Palestinians, "you guys go at it, do what you will, kill until you're sick of it, but by God, get it over with and done."

"You all have six months to either kill each other off, or one side wipe out the other. But no more half-measures."

To tell you the truth, that's the only way this will ever end.

I don't think it is Genocide in Israel/Palestine. It is more akin to Ethnic cleansing. Israel has ethnically cleansed about 500 villages thus far.

As for letting them go at each other... with Israel having millions of dollars of weaponry provided by the US, it is pretty much a no contest fight. Hamas has crappy homemade rockets with almost no payload and a short range. Israel has modern fighter jets and armored vehicles. The both should be handed sticks and then let each other run around poking their eyes out until they get tired of the stupidity and stop behaving like children. Adults talk things out and compromise towards a solution.

If Israel ended the occupation, Hamas has stated that they would officially recognize Israel as a legitimate nation and build their own state beside them. Hamas was becoming more moderate prior to the Gaza bombing campaign, and negotiating towards such a peaceful resolution. That is why they entered into the ceasefire, which Israel then broke. It would take work and time, but Peace can be achieved once both sides put away their sticks and start using common sense.

As for Genocide in Africa, indeed, that seems to be going on. Darfur is the one most talked about currently. Israel supplies arms to Darfur so they bear a small part of the blame there, but in truth it is a local matter fueled by outside interests. Much like the Mid East. Outside influences have a great deal to do with the problems there, from Israel to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Since 1948, it's been Arab policy and practice to engage in genocide against Israel.

They weren't even shy about announcing it.

But they failed in every effort. They continue to use proxy idiots, the so-called Palestinians, to keep the pot stirred, and the so-called Palestinians are just too damned stupid to realize it.

So this genocide against Israel is the reality, and the problem with the so-called Palestinians is just a continuation of the genocidal policy of Arabs against Israel.

reply to post by dooper


Wait,....... when Israel targets women and children you agree that it isn't genocide, but when Palestinians with home made weapons kill less that 1/10 as many you call it genocide??? WTF?? Zionists have stated that their goal is to eradicate the Palestinian people.

Neither is true. There is no genocide. Jews are spread around the globe. There is ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from many villages, but no genocide. Your thinking is clearly one sided. Prior to that statement, I always respected your opinions that I saw in a variety of threads. Mine differ, but at least you were honest about them. Now, you have clearly entered into the one sided closed minded realm.

Hamas has stated that they would accept an Israel based on the pre' 67 borders, the Legal ones as defined by international law and agreed upon by the Israeli Supreme court. There is NO genocide of Jews other than in your mind. There are plenty of Jews in Israel, New York, and around the globe, that would disagree with you.