'There definitely is a God': Christians hit back at atheist buses with own adverts

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge

Would you care to point out examples of an "atheist crusades"?

Hmm - Communism? Rings a bell? A proper example of what happens when atheism turns into faith (or at least part of a faith) and goes on against new "heretics".

Communism? Are you serious? Communism is a political and socioeconomic ideology, it has nothing to do with religion. Thus why such a thing called Christian communism is possible.

There is a difference between an atheist and a secular ideology.

You can, as some Christians do, try to argue that Communism or Nazism were based on atheism, but the reality is that they weren't. And even if Marx, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Mao were atheists, they never did the things they did in the name of atheism. They did it because of socioeconomic and/or political ideas.

Leninism holds that capitalism can only be overthrown by revolutionary means; that is, any attempts to reform capitalism from within, such as Fabianism and non-revolutionary forms of democratic socialism, are doomed to fail. The first goal of a Leninist party is to educate the proletariat, so as to remove the various modes of false consciousness the bourgeois have instilled in them, instilled in order to make them more docile and easier to exploit economically, such as religion and nationalism.

At most, communists saw religion as a barrier to their ideas, and in that sense they were (for the most part) against it.

And as for Hitler.. well, Hitler wasn't even an atheist.

"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." ― Mein Kampf

Really i dont know why there was an atheist one in the first place,that money could have been better spent,send it to a charity for the congo or something...Leave cheap posters on buses for religion,cant blame the poor sods though,record people dont go to church in the uk,atheism is on the rise, our society is becoming more and more secular.Sorry religion, the lure of an invisible sky daddy with super powers went out of fashion in the last dark age sadly.

Originally posted by karl 12

Yes good point

The human brain is a very powerful thing and I suppose you could make the correlation between people who wholeheartedly believe in Voodoo magic often showing psychosimatic symptoms when they find out they've been put under a curse.
Despite it feeling very real to them,the curse is illusionary and the phenomenon has more to do with the psychological make up of the brain rather than any paranormal explanation.

Yes it is a very powerful thing. Placebos and the countless mental illnesses that influence the body is proof of this. All I ask is that people be skeptical. A good amount of doubt is healthy.

No it doesn't,especialy when people just cherrypick the nice bits from the abrahamic mythologies and leave out all the unhinged,sociopathic instruction.

Its interesting that when you actualy ask a 'true beleiver' how he/she actualy knows that "god definitely exists" all you get back are vague mutterings,ambivalent remarks,ambiguous comments and nonsensical cryptic doublespeak.

I suppose a person could beleive with all their heart that
'The Lord of the Rings' is a factual,historical document - it doesn't necessarily make it true.

Indeed. This is why I think NDE's are usually so subjective. If you look at the background of the individual's beliefs, you will see that the NDE experience mirrors it. This explains why Christians see a white light and Christ, why Atheists report a void, etc. I believe the same goes for OBE's. Of course, I'm not saying that there is absolutely no possibility that NDE's and OBE's have a non-physical basis. There's a small possibility that they are, but I lean towards mundane explanations.

George makes some good points:

I really liked George Carlin, but now I like him even more after hearing this.

[edit on 6-2-2009 by GeeGee]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by karl 12
Its interesting that when you actualy ask a 'true beleiver' how he/she actualy knows that "god definitely exists" all you get back are vague mutterings,ambivalent remarks,ambiguous comments and nonsensical cryptic doublespeak.

Well, that may be what you normally get, but there are those who have a personal experience that leads them to their belief. Just like touching a table makes me assume its existence. Mind you my God is not the Christian God as they describe it, it is more the God of Spinoza, or Einstein. Not an anthropomorphized God. But my experience of it was personal and first hand, not based on hearsay.

I do agree with you there -spirituality is a completely different animal to organised religion and deism (rather than theism) is quite an attractive proposition.
I was more referring to the agenda based cultist opinion of attempting to prove their specific doctrine and boldly stating they are somehow aware of the 'true nature' of god/gods without being able to verbalise their opinions
or prove them in any way,shape or form.

When you speculate theres to said to be an incomprehensively mindboggling 5000 billion galaxies out there (each containing 10 to 100 billion stars) and also then look at results emerging the quantum world it becomes apparent the universe is far more bizarre and incredible than many people give it credit for.
With regard to god or gods ,I think the only honest answer is 'noone knows anything for sure'.

Einstein and Spinoza's (and Sagan's) opinions about god and the universe are very interesting to speculate on and I've always liked these quotes by Albert:

I don't try to imagine a personal god;it suffices to stand in awe at the structure of the world,insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
Albert Einstein

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms.

But he also said:

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.
No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
Albert Einstein

Also ,Carl Sagan makes some mighty fine points here:

"Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people."
Carl Sagan

How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?' Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.' Carl Sagan

As does physicist Peter Walker:

“The supreme arrogance of religious thinking: that a carbon-based bag of mostly water on a speck of iron-silicate dust around a boring dwarf star in a minor galaxy … would look up at the sky and declare, ‘It was all made just so that I could exist!’”
Physicist Peter Walker

I think the most important thing is to keep an open mind about the subject of spirituality but when specific organised religious cults/sects start openly proseltysing about their opinions as 'factual' then they should indeed be curtailed and reminded that healthy scepticism does exist and that the only authority they have in society is 'inside' their respective temples.
Cheers.


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12


Oh I agree. And the quotes were great.

I would love for people to stop being true believers and to become experiencers instead. Including some scientists, btw. It is amazing how many of them can get locked into a theory and then refuse to look at contradictory evidence, and even at times fudge their own data to support what they want to believe.

I am, and always will be, with Socrates on knowing.

The only wisdom there is to be had, is knowing that one can never really know. And enjoying the questioning for what it is. An ongoing process with no end in sight.

For God, and for science. We do not know the true causes of things in science. (the whole hidden variables argument) We have high probabilities only. Science can eliminate or make negative statements far more readily than it can positive ones. We can say what is not, much more accurately than we can say what is. But, who really needs to know when the art of looking and questioning is so fun?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Thank you!

Someone else realizes it's not having the answers that makes it worth while, it's the process of discovering them.

Once I have the answers to a question, or at least an adequate probability, I don't care about it any more... I want another question.


One thing that aggravates me about so many people is when they think they have their answer... instead of moving on, they get stuck spending their whole life gloating over that answer. Especially when it comes to the question of belief or lack of it.

Heck, they're so stuck on that one concept they actually literally devote their entire lives to it.

People who grew up with their beliefs are so afraid of questioning them. Afraid enough that they get angry when directly asked a simple question : Why?
This tells me that they haven't actually asked the questions themselves, they've just always gone along with the answer they've been told to believe.

Me... I asked myself that question a LONG time ago.
Yes, my answer was none of the above, Atheism... but it's a question you have to ask yourself, and you can't be afraid to admit the truth to yourself.
Only you can answer the question of beliefs. People can give you all the evidence one way or the other... but only you can answer it.

That works both ways, I've known religious people who were afraid to admit to themselves that they quite simply didn't believe any more (one of them a minister)... and I've known Atheists who were rattled by the notion that they were beginning to believe.

I'll give you the same answer I gave them... don't avoid the question, answer it and move on.

The best part about finding the answer is knowing you can go after the next question.

What did I do when I had the answer to "What do I believe in"?
I looked for more questions.

[edit on 7-2-2009 by johnsky]

Originally posted by karl 12

Here are some apt quotes:

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick

"Belief in the supernatural reflects a failure of the imagination."
Edward Abbey

"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate."
F.M. Knowles

"Faith is a euphemism for prejudice and religion is a euphemism for superstition."
Paul Keller

"Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them."
Peter Ustinov

Man, couldn't you have picked some better quotes than those one-sided, unimaginative, moronic and self deluded utterances? My opinion of course

reply to post by karl 12


Much, much better quotes.

Einstein was no slouch

We entirely support free expression and freedom of belief, and so fully support the right of these Christian groups to place their ads on buses. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Of course, there are differences between the Atheist Bus ads and the new Christian ones and I want to take this opportunity to reflect them.

Our ads were a response to ads run by jesussaid.org whose website promised an eternity of hellfire for non-Christians. Our response message, suggested by comedy writer Ariane Sherine was intended to be reassuring, telling people not to worry and enjoy life, as there was probably no god and so no cause to fear an eternity of hellfire.

Our ads were funded entirely by thousands of individual donors who gave small amounts in an outpouring of popular support for the positive message. The ads now launched in response to our response are funded by organisations or wealthy individuals.

Our ads were positive and peaceful. They didn’t say, for example, that religious people were ‘fools’, unlike one of the response ads being run, which says that "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."

Our ads were undogmatic and funny, with the addition of the ‘probably’ in line with the continuing openness of humanists to new evidence and in an echo of previous funny ads, like the Carlsberg ad which stated that it was ‘probably the best lager in the world’. The new ads are dogmatic and declaratory, leaving no room for reason and debate.

Of course, these groups are free to express themselves as they choose. Our ads encouraged people to think for themselves and I am convinced that they will continue to do so.

www.humanism.org.uk...

The most pathetic thing is the complete lack of originality. One is like a 'yer ma' response from a socially-retarded teenager, and the other just socially retarded. Both logically bankrupt.

I've seen better responses to atheists on here. Perhaps someone might shoot these groups something creative.







[edit on 7-2-2009 by melatonin]

all that is needed now is for an atheist bus driver to spit his / her dummy out and refuse to drive busses with ` god ads `

Originally posted by GeeGee
My existence is verifiable. God's is not.

Certainly it is, I've verified it. If someone else hasn't verified it then it does not make it unverifiable.

Originally posted by GeeGee
You can believe what you want, but that does not sound very convincing.

Why are you looking to me to convince you? This isn't my role. Ask God to convince you.

Originally posted by converge
You can, as some Christians do, try to argue that Communism or Nazism were based on atheism, but the reality is that they weren't. And even if Marx, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Mao were atheists, they never did the things they did in the name of atheism. They did it because of socioeconomic and/or political ideas.

In the same way people are not slaughtered for Christ. It may have been the excuse, but it clearly and certainly did not abide by:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," - Matthew 5:43-44

War has always been about land, power, money, social status, and other forms of greed...as you say, "socioeconomic and/or political ideas".

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by GeeGee
My existence is verifiable. God's is not.

Certainly it is, I've verified it. If someone else hasn't verified it then it does not make it unverifiable.

You have verified God's existence? Am I reading that right? You do know what to verify means right?

1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
3. to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.

Where is the evidence, that you clearly must have to claim God exists, that we can examine?

Originally posted by saint4God
In the same way people are not slaughtered for Christ. It may have been the excuse, but it clearly and certainly did not abide by:

Aren't you forgetting something? Like, I don't know.. the Inquisition?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by GeeGee
My existence is verifiable. God's is not.

Certainly it is, I've verified it. If someone else hasn't verified it then it does not make it unverifiable.

Verify:
1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
3. to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.
4. Law. a. to prove or confirm (an allegation).
b. to state to be true, esp. in legal use, formally or upon oath.

If you've 'verified the existance of the abrahamic god' then I look foward to seeing your
unequivocable,unassailable,incontrovertible,tangible,concrete proof.

I think this quote sums it up quite well:

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything".
Frederick Neitzche

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by converge
You have verified God's existence? Am I reading that right? You do know what to verify means right?

1. to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction.
2. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
3. to act as ultimate proof or evidence of; serve to confirm.

Ya, and appreciate the definition. The dictionary is my second most used book.

Originally posted by converge
Where is the evidence, that you clearly must have to claim God exists, that we can examine?

Notice the definition does not say anything about being able to share that proof. I can help others obtain their own proof as God is more interested in a personal relationship rather than waving around a photograph. Not that a photograph would matter here anyway.



[edit on 10-2-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


So you have no proof or tangible,cogent evidence of any kind?
Isn't it fair to say you're just engaging in
'opinion based on speculation and conjecture' (as was mentioned in the very first post)?




[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by converge
Aren't you forgetting something? Like, I don't know.. the Inquisition?

I did not forget, this was not motivated by Christ's words (see the quote I cited). If you're into counting bodies, check out the crusade against Christians in Russia. Not 500 years ago but within the last 100 years:

It is estimated that some 20 million Christians (17 million Orthodox 3 million Roman catholic) died or were interned in gulags. Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals. The result of this militant atheism was to transform the Church into a persecuted and martyred Church. In the first five years after the Bolshevik revolution, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were executed

- en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by saint4God
Notice the definition does not say anything about being able to share that proof.

Ahahaha I'm sorry, that's just hilarious. You have proof of God's existence, but you decide not to share... OK. Yeah, that reminds me of little kids who pretend to know something and when asked about it they say they can't tell you.

I can help others obtain their own proof as God is more interested in a personal relationship rather than waving around a photograph.

In other words: belief. That's the only way you can say God 'exists', if you believe he does. And last I checked there was nothing about belief in that definition of verification.

Originally posted by karl 12
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

Imagine if all the religious cults/sects started advertising their
opinions - the advertising world would be flooded with a veritable pantheon of gods and goddess advertisements ...all boldy claiming that their particular deity 'definitely' exists and everybody else has it wrong or is delusional.

It just goes to show how ridiculous and insecure it all realy is.

Also,doesn't this 'there definitely is a god' slogan contravene advertising standards -isn't it blatant misrepresentation?

As I said before I think they should prove it or remove it.


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

then i would ask that atheists prove that there is no God to begin with.

You can't get mad at these organization defending their beliefs, just like the atheist began to do.

I don't blame them, just like a whole lot of atheists are offended at having religion shoved down their throats, religious groups are being offended by the declaration that "there is probably no God"

That statement doesn't only affect Christian groups, but others as well.

They knew what they were getting into by placing those advertisements, and they couldn't have expected everyone just to sit down and take it...as far as I'm concerned, those advertisements were done for more than just voicing their belief (or lack thereof), but also to provoke the religious outcry.

eh my $.02

edit: maybe this is where our society is headed to anyway, public displays of faith or not, and you better believe that the minute a religious group is denied the right to post their advertisements a whole other equal rights movement would start up

[edit on 10-2-2009 by bandaidctrl]