Israel vows "disproportionate" response to rockets

America gives to both Israel and 'Palestine'.
Frankly, I don't think we should be 'giving' to either.

Obama's 509 Campaign Promises

No. 133: Provide $30 billion over 10 years to Israel
"Implement a Memorandum of Understanding that provides $30 billion in assistance to Israel over the next decade -- investments to Israel's security that will not be tied to any other nation."

US Gov't - $120 Million to 'Palestinians' in 2009

The average per year is that the Israel gets 2/3 and the 'palestinians' get 1/3.

Not bad considering that 'Palestinians' aren't even a country.

Not bad considering THESE -
FOX, CNN, MSNBC

Originally posted by Mynaeris
reply to post by Retseh

 

That is a pretty random statement. I could just repeat the same sentences and fill in israelis in the place of Palestinians and it would be equally true. Palestinians bleed, cry and die just like you do.

Actually I'm not bleeding or crying, but then again I'm not attacking someone.

If the Palestinians threw all their rockets in the sea, they wouldn't need to be bleeding, crying, and dying - they fail to understand that because of their rampant stupidity, I'm not sure what excuse others use.

DUH!!! Of course they vow disproportionate force...they have to. I mean Hamas still isnt listening. Do you think Hamas would stop firing their rockets if Israel said "for every rocket you fire, we will fire one back"? NO. They are saying if you fire one rocket we are gonna hit you bad 10 times harder in effort to convince Hamas that ITS NOT WORTH IT. They have been warned so no one can cry for Hamas when they get hit back tenfold because they shouldnt have fired the rocket in the first place!!!! Is Hamas that freaking dumb??? Evidently so!!

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Animal

 

This is exactly what i am saying - there was govenment land. Government was a) Otoman empire b)British empire. How then Palestinian Arabs owned land of both of this empires? There should be 3 cathegories. Not just two.

When you talk of British Rule you are talking about the British mandate correct? Whee Briton ruled the area for a mere 28 years, 1920-1948 and which lead directly to the creation of Israel.

The Ottoman empire is another interesting story isn't it? Defeated by the allies of WWI the Ottoman empire, who had ruled the area for what, 300-400 years was broken up by the allies with the signing of the Treaty of Sevres in 1920.

So I could very well see where you would call for what remained of the Ottoman empire to be included in the map, which it was in the form of PALESTINIAN and JEWISH nations.

To include Great Briton makes no sense as it is this very logic that is at the root of the conflict in the region today. It was the forceful partitioning of the region that has led to todays conflict and violence both internally and internationally.

If govenment land was given in partition plan to Palestinian Jews - it is not land of Palestinian Arabs anyway so what is wrong with this?
Because the map constantly speeks of green color as color of Palestinian Arabs only and it is misleading since there were at least three cathegories of owners.

This logic is based on what? 2% of the land was occupied by the Jewish community, a direct correlation to their numbers prior to the creation of Israel as a state.

Here is a graph comparing the Jewish to Arab (in Isreal / Palestine) population in 1914:





Here is one showing the comparison (Israel) from 1949 to 2006




link to both maps

The issue is quite plain. The west took control of the region, divided up the resources, and gave the land to the 'oppressed' Jewish nation allowing the creation of the Zionist state: Israel.

My point still stands, not only was this land taken away from a nation, divided up in questionable terms, striped of its resources, and then handed off to who the west deemed to be the rightful owners, this pillaging continues today under the rule of Israel.

As for a lot of people living in desert - well this is wrong. Of course if you consider the desert proper. There are no more then several hundred thousands living in two deserts. Look it up in google earth, simplest way to see empty barren land with few populated areas. Then it was tens of thousands tops. And it is descent part of Israel. As an example:
In Beer-Sheva district of British province of Palestine lived only several thosuand people in 1948. And Negev desert is huge. (compared to Israel size.)
www.mideastweb.org...

There are of course still the people who live in the desert in a tradition manner who would be hard to detect on google earth.

You can try to dance around the truth all you want bu the root of this issue is the theft of land. Until that theft is recognized and something is done to mitigate it the violence will continue.

[edit on 1-2-2009 by Animal]

[edit on 1-2-2009 by Animal]

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
As for Palestinian economy - it is based on foreign aid. Especially Gaza. Foreign aid (US and others, including Israel) is not 3 percent. It is more then half of budget. Why aren't they richer then Israel?

Oh I don't know, maybe Israel's decade long blockade of the region that doesn't allow even basic necessities to enter Gaza also disallows them to make any sort of profitable economic moves either? That and Israel's complete dominance over the basic necessities of commercial production (resources) also disallows the Palestinians from making any green backs.

Seriously man...

reply to post by Animal


Land was taken (stolen if you llike) from Palestinian Arabs - i do not try to hide it. I simply state that map that shows in GREEN color land that Palestinian Arabs owned , also shows in the same GREEN color land that Jews did not own. And this is two different things.
So it creates an illusion that since Palestinian Jews owned 2 percent, Palestinian Arabs owned 98. This is not so. If person, say Ahmed, had land, pasture, garden,field and then Jews came and took the land and drove him away; or if on a land nobody lived/used/owned Jews built something are two different things and yet the map is drawn clearly to show that exept 2 percent Jews owned on rest 98 percent Palestinian Arabs lived/owned and it was stolen. Which is a lie. Or if you like it more - manipulation of truth.

All the history is great but Hamas is still firing rockets. Look at how many countries around the world (including the US) were habited by someone else first before another power came in. TONS of countries and they arent fighting like the Israeli's and Palestinians are. And Israel didny come and take that land...it was gievn to them by the world powers so its not their fault. Why arent the Palestinians fighting against the UN? Many of the UN countries are the ones who gave the land to the Israelis after WW2.

Why arent the Palestinians fighting the Germans? If the Germans hadnt gassed the Jews during WW2, then the world wouldnt have had such sympathyto give them a homeland. Its the Germans fault.

reply to post by Animal


There is no "decade long blockade". Constant blockade is only since Hamas took control inin Gaza, in 2007. Before that economy was also getting worse but nothing compared to what is (or is not) now.
Here are pictures of Gaza so no need to think that it is all poor and was so for decades. It went down the drain once path of war was chosen by Hamas.
www.panoramio.com...
www.panoramio.com...
www.panoramio.com...
Check it out - 2005.
www.panoramio.com...
You want me to continue with this? Or look for yourself?
Look at photos over there. Distruction and economy death are result of "wise" leadership in Gaza.


[edit on 1-2-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

[edit on 1-2-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

Christ, if the people of Palestine and Israel put together their collective will to survive and funneled it all into positivity i'm sure they could create an awe inspiring country!

Israel, just get it over with and annex Gaza, while your at it why not become a new nation as a whole which isn't based on religion ( ) and doesn't treat Palestinians as second class citizens.

Imagine the message you could send to the world, if you only manage to heal those deep wounds you could give hope to us all!

In the words of the late great John Lennon, "Imagine all the people, sharing all the world!"


[edit on 1-2-2009 by freeradical]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Sorry man but I have to say it appears you are dancing around the truth.

Israel is a state built on land that was given to them by an invading force, the west.

In the region as a whole the jewish population was by far the minority.

They took control of a region by force.

they have since systematically disenfranchised and oppressed the majority populace and continue to assimilate these people land into their own.

Your right there was no official blockade until recently however Israel controls all of the Gaza border save for the small portion along Egypt. They provide the majority of Palestinian electricity and access to arable land. They essentially have withheld access to the basics of life with out calling it a blockade but it acting in the same manner regardless.

These are all at the root of the conflict and no amount of deflection will change that.

reply to post by Animal


Excellent stats Animal. The only thing missing from the data are the quantities of Eastern Europeans emigrating to Palestine and the millions of Palestinians expelled or have run for their lives.

A core issue that has yet to be addressed by self appointed interlocutors, such as the US, UK and Germany, is the right of return for the Palestinians most of whom still have the deeds to their homes and land.

Furthermore, many immigrants to Israel only have to prove Jewish ancestry such as a Jewish great grandfather.

reply to post by princeofpeace


They have been warned, but me thinks that Hamas does not care. They do not care if they loose innocent people. They do not care about their people clearly. They only care about their hatred for Israel.


And can anyone tell us what Hamas, er Palesitine, is doing with all that money that American gives them. They certainly are not spending it on their own people to better their lives.

I feel very sorry for all those innocent people living there. They have leaders that would rather destroy them, than look out for their best interest!


I cant believe you people are not up and arms over Hamas. Cant believe it.

[edit on 1-2-2009 by inked up]

reply to post by Mynaeris


Oh, cry me a freakin river. Innocent women and children,,,, bah. If they are so innocent then why do they not put an end to hamas leadership or at least leave? It's war over there, and war is hell !! Just about every nation in the middle east has jacked with Israel for thousands of years. I would imagine Israel is tired of it.

If the militants are the flame then the 'disproportionate' responce is the oxygen which feeds it.

Self-perpetual violence is turning that area of the world into a black hole which threatens to suck in other countries and corrupt the sanctity of the entire region.

The people in power on both sides need to stop, think and try a new way forward. I know they will say negotiation doesn't work but surely its more prudent to air your issues around a table than on a battlefield. At the negotiation meeting the British will do their part by bringing freshly made scones, with a nice pot of tea for all! That will make things more civil.


[edit on 1-2-2009 by freeradical]

This topic is very predicatable...every thread seems to go the same way. I think the thread has wandered from the central topic. It's right in the source...

There have been sporadic rocket attacks by militants on southern Israeli communities and several Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip since a truce came into effect on Jan. 18 following a 22-day Israeli offensive in the territory.

Does nobody notice the word "truce"? The recent conflict started because rockets are landing in israeli civilian areas every day. Israel decided enough was enough and invaded. They had Hamas on the ropes, when they agreed to a truce and pulled back. Now, the rockets start tearing over the border again.

Regardless of what happened 60 years ago, 50 years ago...or even ONE year ago, we're talking about right now. Israel agreed to a truce and stopped their attack, even though they were experiencing little resistance. Now, less than two weeks later, they're getting rockets rained down on them again. Big, bad, evil Israel, LOL. Gimme a break. It sure seems like the "truce" means nothing to Hamas. It's an excuse to get Israel back over the fence and then it's business as usual. Then again, doesn't the Quran give muslims the option to ignore any agreements made with infidels?

Enough is enough. It's time for Israel to invade and completely wipe out Hamas.

All of you that hop in there and call Israel warmongers should be ashamed of yourselves. Put yourselves in the same situation and see how you react. Imagine that your neighbors are raining empty beer bottles down on your house. They've even injured your kids in the past. Finally, you get fed up and hop the fence with a baseball bat. You get to the point where the guilty party is hiding in the closet before the neighborhood throws a fit and forces you to back off and a "truce" is put into effect. The next day...beer bottles start raining over the fence and they're landing right where your kids are playing.

Now that you've read that analogy, which I think is pretty accurate, what would you do?? All Israel has done to this point is threaten to launch a car over the fence if it doesn't stop.

reply to post by BlueTriangle


Yes these threads are rather predictable and we all seem to bring out own opinions to the table.

You see the rockets as the responsibility of the government of palestine and the retaliation the right of the government of israel.

i see the rocket fire as a sick expression of their struggle against repression and obliteration on the part of the palestinian nation and the retaliation the continued oppression and obliteration of a people by the state (government) of israel.

i see the root of this problem in the hostile take over of a nations land and 'place'.

you see it in rocket fire and terrorism.

the violence, at least we both agree, is unexplainable and wrong.

So what now?

we stand on similar sides to many, we all agree that violence must end, so what is the solution?

that is the question mate.

once we get past the question of whether or not the violence is wrong the next question that has to be answered in order to move forward is why does the violence continue? what is the motivation for all the hate and killing?

that is a question i have been trying to answer, right or wrong, in order to move the discussion along.

perhaps if you brought more than 'destroy' i'd have the conversation with you...

[edit on 1-2-2009 by Animal]

Gee, I wonder why the Palestinians fire rockets at Israel. It's makes no sense at all. I mean... what has poor Israel done to deserve it? It's just not fair! Not fair I tell you!



Gimme a break! Anyone who supports Israel should look at the map above, put themselves in the shoes of the Palestinians and ask themselves honestly (if they're actually capable of honesty), if they would lay down like dogs and let another country overrun them, illegally and systematically steal their land, occupy them and starve their children/population amongst a growing list of heinous crimes against humanity.

If people cannot understand the trend of what is happening in this diagram, then you are in complete and utter denial.

Utter denial!

What if they were doing it to you, in your street, in your town? What would you do? Would you look on them as favorably as you do now? Would you hand them the keys, give them a golden handshake and say "Yeah, you're in your every right to kick me into the streets, take my house, my land and my livelihood because compared to an Israeli, I have no rights in the world". "I deserve to be treated worse than a dog".


IRM

Originally posted by Dermo

In fairness, It would be a bit of a one sided fight.

Oh please. Not another naive "war should be fair" posts.

The only object of a war is to win it - any way you can.

That's why the so-called palestinians are shooting rockets - it's all they have.

It's also why Israel will use a 'disproportionate response' - they can't afford to lose..

Originally posted by centurion1211


It's also why Israel will use a 'disproportionate response' - they can't afford to lose..

Loose what?

I think the question at some point has to come down to some 'measurement' that all sides agree upon and abide by to create peace.

what is it Israel stands to loose?
what is it Palestine stands to loose?