Another lie in christianity exposed?

reply to post by justamomma

I know because I went through it too... and as long as I kept that image of a man (this is done by crediting Jesus with the work that the Father is responsible for) between you and your Father, you will not fully able to go through the rest of the work G.d has for you.

He wants you to let go of the security blanket and trust ONLY Him, because only HE can give true freedom to you. You will know when this has been accomplished because you no longer talk about what you were saved from, but you start doing the work you were called to which is to spread knowledge and instruct others on how to avoid those same kind of situations.. you speak PEACE to people.. not guilt, shame, promises of some distant heaven... you speak PEACE now!

Very good points! I couldn't have said it better myself.

A star for you. Thank you for putting it so clearly and lovingly!

There is a scripture that says something along the line of:

"God is a jealous God that exacts exclusive devotion!"

Of course this will be misunderstood as Jesus for those who buy into the trinity doctrine...to bad! But it is nevertheless, very clear.

Originally posted by pureevil81
The following is from Isaiah 53, This prophecy is usually attributed to Jesus.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Right here, verse 9, the NT says Jesus ascended, yet this supposed prophecy of Jesus says he was assigned a grave with the wicked.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Verse 10, he will see his offspring? Jesus supposedly had no offspring? right?

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

verse 12 blows the whole " Jesus is god " argument right out of the water, It says god will GIVE him a portion from among the great!! Give it to him, not equal to, or that Jesus is god.


Most people I know believe Jesus to be their Saviour, When I ask why they usually say " because there are prophecies of him long before he came ". It is usually an answer similar to that.

So here we have a presumed prophecy of Jesus, but considering this prophecy does not fit Jesus, will you deny this or re-think your stance?

Here is a nice little article I found, home.att.net...

Is this tied to a " conspiracy in religion ".... I think so.

Your thoughts?


[edit on 30-1-2009 by pureevil81]

verse 9

When He died on the cross, two thieves, were crucified with Him, He was buried in a rich man's grave (Joseph of Aramethia-(name spelling prob incorrect) because it was right before the Passover/Sabbath and there was no time to prepare another grave, the man I noted gave his grave for the burial) Jesus had done no wrong, Pilate wanted to let Him go. It does not say Jesus ascended at this point.

verse 10

Here Offspring means all Christians who are saved through Him, although I don't really like the word "Christian", I prefer followers of Jesus Christ, which is kinda different.

God says through Jesus, we become sons of the Father, thereby becoming His offspring, since Jesus, calls himself "I Am" and I am the Alpha and Omega, terms God used in the Old Testament to refer to Himself.

Verse 12

I don't really know how to answer you on this one, but I think this equates Jesus to Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David, etc. You have to remember Isaiah was written by an prophet of Israeli for the children of Israel, (and we are all children of Israel ) they would have expected their Messiah to be like their Prophets, Kings and Leaders of old.

Finally, I wasn't even going to the website you noted, but then I decided to, because I figured it would be either an atheist's website, or a Jewish website, both of whom you can figure would not be objective about the subject, and BINGO! Number 2.

It seems like you don't really want to find out the truth, it seems like you just want to turn people away from God and the truth of the book that he gave us for instruction. I mean, your screen name points to your intention....if not, why did you choose it?
So, you should know, God holds all those who try to lead others away from God responsible.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Thank you, MatrixProhpet, for your warm welcome and kind words. I must confess I've been lurking around ATS for years, but I've been hesitant to post, not sure I could add much of worth to the conversations. So I'm glad you considered these thoughts of value. While I never expect to agree with anyone about everything, I can usually find some common ground with everyone. A great basis for learning and personal growth.

Blessings

Originally posted by sezsueverse 9

When He died on the cross, two thieves, were crucified with Him, He was buried in a rich man's grave (Joseph of Aramethia-(name spelling prob incorrect) because it was right before the Passover/Sabbath and there was no time to prepare another grave, the man I noted gave his grave for the burial) Jesus had done no wrong, Pilate wanted to let Him go. It does not say Jesus ascended at this point.

verse 10

Here Offspring means all Christians who are saved through Him, although I don't really like the word "Christian", I prefer followers of Jesus Christ, which is kinda different.

God says through Jesus, we become sons of the Father, thereby becoming His offspring, since Jesus, calls himself "I Am" and I am the Alpha and Omega, terms God used in the Old Testament to refer to Himself.

Verse 12

I don't really know how to answer you on this one, but I think this equates Jesus to Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David, etc. You have to remember Isaiah was written by an prophet of Israeli for the children of Israel, (and we are all children of Israel ) they would have expected their Messiah to be like their Prophets, Kings and Leaders of old.

Finally, I wasn't even going to the website you noted, but then I decided to, because I figured it would be either an atheist's website, or a Jewish website, both of whom you can figure would not be objective about the subject, and BINGO! Number 2.

It seems like you don't really want to find out the truth, it seems like you just want to turn people away from God and the truth of the book that he gave us for instruction. I mean, your screen name points to your intention....if not, why did you choose it?
So, you should know, God holds all those who try to lead others away from God responsible.

I am going to clearly show to you all why this is NOT talking about Jesus!

Isaiah 45:

2I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

He is telling you.. it was already declared... He declared it all BEFORE it happened! He declared it so that no one could come in and say "this is the filling the prophecy" as they have done with Jesus.

People came in AFTER the prophecies and manipulated them to fit their god.. but G.d already declared every part of the prophecies so that no one COULD lie to those who have EYES TO SEE.. and what kind of eyes would that be? That was declared in the same chapter.

15Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

19I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

He CLEARLY says "who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath TOLD IT FROM THAT TIME?"

He did too.. everything in these prophecies is written all thoughout the Tanakh clearly.. When you insert Jesus in as an interpretation, that is called adding to the Word.

And who are the ones who have not the eyes of the heart to see that G.d already declared everything in the prophecies and instead fall for the adding of the Word of the LORD? vs. 19 answers this.. those who seek in vain.

23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

He says He swore BY His self! There was no need for the interpretations of man.. what some of you NEED is the understanding of G.d.. but you seek vain things like eternal life (being one example of a vain seeking).

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Very cool!

Many people question the jealousy of G.d.. yet it is very much a Holy Jealousy considering so many give the credit of the Work He is doing away to man (whether Jesus or trusting others interpretations). He loves His children and then what do so many do? They credit it to an idol of their own imaginings or of someone else's imaginings.

I am jealous for my FAther! Being on this side, it is clear to understand His heart!



[edit on 31-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by Simplynoone

Well you can believe what you want Matrix...but scripture certainly disagrees with you.And you can toss scripture out the door all you want to that does not mean that it is not the truth ..(it just means you may not see it as your truth) .......they were there with him ..they walked with him ..he talked with them .....you were not ....they wrote down for us what happened to Jesus and why he was here and what he was here for .....and ever since I did open my heart up and believe it ....it really did change my life ..in more ways than one ..so I can honestly say that it is very real to me ...and very true ....

The problem with this is; you are making the scriptures your God. You are not following the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There is too much evidence coming forth that denial will not protect you from!

Denial will not protect us from reality!

I have communication with God and have a tight connection. I, nor you, have a monopoly on his love and attention! Many of us have been to Hades and back, and learned to talk about it, and the rescue we have received. This is in the province of many of us.

Speaking from experience, the more I turn away from reality and the spirit, the more I lose it! Eventually, the connection lessens because we are following OUR WILL instead of what is being shown us. But this is a program of attraction...not promotion. You cannot shame me back to ignorance. It is far better for you to move on, rather than attempting to change us, and show us the error of our ways. I mean this in all kindness - we have walked in your familiar shoes.

Originally posted by TrixieBelden
reply to post by pureevil81

 

note in Genesis that "God" created man in "our image." Not "my" image, but "our" image.

I have always wondered about this also, Thats an interesting idea you have there.

But in the end, no matter who and how much you read and research, I suspect (like me), that there will always be more questions than answers! Good luck and God bless on your journey.

Thank you! there are always questions, I just do not accept the same ol' same ol' answers. When a answer doesnt satisfy your mind, of course it leaves you hungry, and wanting real answers.

Thank you for the great post.

reply to post by justamomma

I am jealous for my FAther! Being on this side, it is clear to understand His heart!

Yes, and feeling His sadness is something that really alters ones experience! I have felt it!!

reply to post by pureevil81

I have always wondered about this also, Thats an interesting idea you have there.

There is good insight with many of the posts. This is a good thread, thank you! Thought provoking.

reply to post by justamomma


Excellent post!

I never understand when someone says they KNOW jesus helped them. How do you know jesus helped you?

The same thing with the bible, " if it wasnt for the bible I wouldnt be here ".
The bible does not help you, G.d does.

So many people give g.d's credit away to someone or something else, That is what needs to end. Put your trust in the right place!

Originally posted by sezsue

It seems like you don't really want to find out the truth, it seems like you just want to turn people away from God and the truth of the book that he gave us for instruction. I mean, your screen name points to your intention....if not, why did you choose it?
So, you should know, God holds all those who try to lead others away from God responsible.

Again and for the last time: My username has nothing to do with anything!!! I cannot stress that enough. forget it.

The website in the OP, if you actually read it, shows a few different possibilities, it is nothing biased and that is why I used it, I dont do the bias thing anymore.

It seems you have been quick to pass judgement, and thats OK... I like being outside the box. I am quite comfortable outside the box and the dogma doesnt work for me... Answers I have received from the OP, have been the same old tired, regurgitated answers I have been fed my whole life and they no longer work for me.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Thats your own opinion isnt it ? ......but nothing will change my mind about this.
I already went through years and years of doubt and rebellion ...and years and years of thinking I knew what was up and what wasnt ..and years and years of tossing the bible out and thinking that Jesus was just a man ....or just a prophet ...........and I can tell you honestly that I have seen him work in my life and outside of my life ..Like an ANGEL from heaven only he is in my heart and is alive and is so real that even if I wanted to stop believing it ..I cant because I have seen it ..myself ..and I have heard him and I have felt him and I have believed him to be who he said he was .... .and if you knew me then and saw where I was then (when I was living life my own way) and if you could see where I am now (spiritually speaking and in my heart and how my life has changed so drastically that it is unbelievable) ..it is as different as night and day and it was because of the HOLY SPIRIT I recieved one night when I prayed and asked Jesus into my heart ........I have not been the same .....

..the Holy Spirit in me knows God (and he teaches me who God is along with reading the bible ) ...(because it is the spirit of Jesus who is the spirit of God) ... .....I hear God now and he hears me .....before that I heard no one but my own voice ..and of course the voices of the world .....(do this do that ..believe this beleive that ..positive thinking will change you (It did not) drugs will make you feel good (It did not) alcohol ...sex ...all will make you feel good (didnt) .....a mate will make you feel complete(they didnt) ..a child will keep you from being lonely (It didnt) ...have a great job,make good money,fulfill your desires and have fun this will be rewarding and will make you happy (it didnt ).....love everyone that will make you happy (it didnt ) in fact I didnt even know how to love people before the Lord showed me ...

Before it was all about eating sleeping drinking to be merry .and was all about ME ME ME >>....now it is a whole other story ..it is about GOD >.it is about LOVE ..for everyone .....it is about others . ..it is about spiritual love not physical love ..it is about this life ..but also about the life to come and after death ............Life actually has purpose now for me ..other than what we think it is about...( living eating sleeping haveing sex ..working..raising kids etc)_

More proof to those with Ears to HEAR that Isaiah, or any other prophecies, was not speaking of Jesus.

G.d says He declared it from the beginning so that AS IT WAS HAPPENING, then those who had their faiths of man broken would see it being fulfilled RIGHT THEN!

Too many people, even in his days, questioned Jesus... G.d said, NO ONE WILL DOUBT because they will SEE the things ALREADY declared right before their eyes and it would be AS HE DECLARED.. no interpetations needed!

*THAT* is how brilliant MY Father is!

Isaiah 46:

9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

12Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

13I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.


Isaiah 48:
3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

THEY ARE CREATED NOW!!!! AND He is doing it this way so no one could say that their idol did it.

Those who SEE these things being fulfilled, they are seeing it with the eyes of their heart.

Jesus was external and thus, questioned.

We KNOW these things from the inside-out.. .not the outside-in.

In fact the Word spoken by Jesus said that it was not about what goes in.. but what about comes out... our heart declares the truth about us. Those who See speak peace, joy, hope, comfort...

Those who do not are still tying others up in the lies.

(read the 10- 22 of chapter 48.. Isaiah.. note that Chaldeans is speaking of those in the hellenistic views... where Christianity originated; paul was hellenistic)



[edit on 31-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
reply to post by MatrixProphet

 

Thats your own opinion isnt it ? ......but nothing will change my mind about this.
I already went through years and years of doubt and rebellion ...and years and years of thinking I knew what was up and what wasnt ..and years and years of tossing the bible out and thinking that Jesus was just a man ....or just a prophet ...........and I can tell you honestly that I have seen him work in my life and outside of my life ..Like an ANGEL from heaven only he is in my heart and is alive and is so real that even if I wanted to stop believing it ..I cant because I have seen it ..myself ..and I have heard him and I have felt him and I have believed him to be who he said he was .... .and if you knew me then and saw where I was then (when I was living life my own way) and if you could see where I am now (spiritually speaking and in my heart and how my life has changed so drastically that it is unbelievable) ..it is as different as night and day and it was because of the HOLY SPIRIT I recieved one night when I prayed and asked Jesus into my heart ........I have not been the same .....

..the Holy Spirit in me knows God (and he teaches me who God is along with reading the bible ) ...(because it is the spirit of Jesus who is the spirit of God) ... .....I hear God now and he hears me .....before that I heard no one but my own voice ..and of course the voices of the world .....(do this do that ..believe this beleive that ..positive thinking will change you (It did not) drugs will make you feel good (It did not) alcohol ...sex ...all will make you feel good (didnt) .....a mate will make you feel complete(they didnt) ..a child will keep you from being lonely (It didnt) ...have a great job,make good money,fulfill your desires and have fun this will be rewarding and will make you happy (it didnt ).....love everyone that will make you happy (it didnt ) in fact I didnt even know how to love people before the Lord showed me ...

Before it was all about eating sleeping drinking to be merry .and was all about ME ME ME >>....now it is a whole other story ..it is about GOD >.it is about LOVE ..for everyone .....it is about others . ..it is about spiritual love not physical love ..it is about this life ..but also about the life to come and after death ............Life actually has purpose now for me ..other than what we think it is about...( living eating sleeping haveing sex ..working..raising kids etc)_

Just as long as you give that credit to G.d and not a man.. not ANY MAN that has ever been or will be... then I can undestand this...

But if you would take the time to consider others view points (at least mine, since I am using Scripture), then you wouldn't be so fearful to listen to others (and you are.. you have said as much in your words.. your heart speaks so loudly and clearly.. and it speaks fear, not wickedness).

When you have the TRUTH, you can hear people out without defending yourself. What a person defends when they have the Truth is the Truth, but not for themselves... they defend it for the other person's sake.. never out of fear of being swayed.

Why does someone who has the Truth need to be so adament about their own self? Well, they don't!

You don't defend G.d, you always defend your beliefs. The difference is obvious

Originally posted by sezsue

It seems like you don't really want to find out the truth, it seems like you just want to turn people away from God and the truth of the book that he gave us for instruction. I mean, your screen name points to your intention....if not, why did you choose it?
So, you should know, God holds all those who try to lead others away from God responsible.

And He holds you responsible for focusing on a name and images rather than looking from the heart. You don't see because you clearly, as you have shown, only see things with your physical eyes.

His screenname doesn't point to anything. That is your declaration only... and G.d, the One you are claiming you believe in, says that what you declare for others.. your fears and doubts... will be what *you* are fed.

You see what you want to see and thus, that is what you get.

reply to post by justamomma


ISAIAH 48
10"Behold, I have refined you, but (CM)not as silver;
I have tested you in the (CN)furnace of affliction.
11"(CO)For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My (CP)glory I will not give to another.

Read above, verse 10.. " My glory I will not give to another. Unless you believe Jesus is g.d... There are no ifs ands or butts about the meaning of this. I have heard the same argument over and over hat jesus is god... I just dont see that way of thinking.

Deliverance Promised
12"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
(CQ)I am He, (CR)I am the first, I am also the last.
13"Surely My hand (CS)founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I (CT)call to them, they stand together.
14"(CU)Assemble, all of you, and listen!
(CV)Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will (CW)carry out His good pleasure on (CX)Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.


15"I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have (CY)called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16"(CZ)Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have (DA)not spoken in secret,
(DB)From the time it took place, I was there
And now (DC)the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."

17Thus says the LORD, your (DD)Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel,
"I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit,
Who (DE)leads you in the way you should go.
18"If only you had (DF)paid attention to My commandments!
Then your (DG)well-being would have been like a river,
And your (DH)righteousness like the waves of the sea.
19"Your (DI)descendants would have been like the sand,
And your offspring like its grains;
(DJ)Their name would never be cut off or destroyed from My presence."
20(DK)Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans!
Declare with the sound of (DL)joyful shouting, proclaim this,
(DM)Send it out to the end of the earth;
Say, "(DN)The LORD has redeemed His servant Jacob."

I can admit I may have been a little quick to throw out the entire bible at one time, Although I dont see the bible as a necessity, it certainly cant hurt to throw some scripture around.

Thanks justamomma!!

reply to post by Simplynoone

Before it was all about eating sleeping drinking to be merry .and was all about ME ME ME >>....now it is a whole other story ..it is about GOD >.it is about LOVE ..for everyone .....it is about others . ..it is about spiritual love not physical love ..it is about this life ..but also about the life to come and after death ............Life actually has purpose now for me ..other than what we think it is about...( living eating sleeping haveing sex ..working..raising kids etc)_

Yes, I relate as I was a former hedonist and addict!!

But I have reasoned and reasoned. I find that there is nothing more I can share with you. Again...it is a program of attraction, not promotion. I will let you go your way, with respect. So I will not burden you any longer with my thoughts or viewpoints.

Please understand if I don't answer your posts from here on out.

Respectfully,
MP

reply to post by pureevil81


I know exactly what you mean.. But throwing out the Bible was the best thing we could have done because it meant that we weren't going to trust man just to feel secure.

Our faith was destroyed so when we were brought back, we knew Who it was that brought us back... it is so clear now, no?

The more you read, the more you are amazed that it is all right there.. what you already knew in your heart is written out so clearly.

I remember just a few weeks ago, I was reading in the Psalms and I was all because I was literally reading the language of my heart.. they were no longer words... it is THE Word and my heart knew that Word so well... the words changed.. that is what amazed me and still does.



[edit on 31-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


Yep, the words are the same, but at the same time they take on a new meaning... you see things you didnt see before, That has happened alot lately.

So yeah, I agree throwing out the bible allowed me step back and see more things that were there all along!!

One person can only see a small part of the picture because they stand too close, the next person took a step back and can see more of the picture..... its not until you step all the way back as far as you can go.... only then can you see the whole picture.

AKA, stepping out of the box!!

reply to post by pureevil81


I once read that "Israel" is actually an acronym for "Isis" - "Ra" - "Elohim," signifying the union of both the male and female divine in the Egyptian culture into one entity in the Hebrew culture. Not sure if that should be taken literally or figuratively (much like man and wife become one in marriage).

Given Joseph's sojourn and authority in Egypt (Joseph of the coat of many colors fame), as well as Moses' origination in Egypt, it's possible. One school of thought says that Moses was a title, rather than a name, and that he was either the Pharaoh Thutmose (easily corrupted to Moses) or Akhenaten before his exile. I just noticed another thread with this line of thought which might flesh the concept out further.