Islam: An intolerant, inconsistent fallacy

Originally posted by Scat

Originally posted by DaTruth
There isn't a nation out there that has been peaceful and sucessful.

I'm so sorry, what Im aboutt o say has nothing to do with Islam, you dont have to answer, my random brain was just wondering.....

What about Sweeden? I'm not trying to be a jerk or stupid, I seriously just want to know if theyve started any big feuds.

[edit on 6-24-04 by Scat]

Salaamu'aliekum Scat,

I have been to Sweden, my father got bashed there because he was Chilean, its a common occurance there, my dad did not believe it antill it happend to him, he never thought in his whole life that he would have to face that. In sweden there is a big growing number of Neo-Nazi's also believe it or not there a number of Neo-Nazi groups in Chile
I believe people are not turning to there religion enough and have lost faith in everything.
Sure an athiest is peacefull as an individual, but the truth is that we live in communitys and as humans we cant really live alone.
It is completely wrong to go around and blame someones faith on there own act's.
I will acknowladge that yes..Maybe these terrible things do happen in Arab countries, but then you as an individual should ask yourself, is it there religion that does this to them or is it just Arab's being Arab's???
My own Arab friends tell me that in Lebanon the people there see religion as a sign of weakness, the never smile etc etc...some them here in australia are the same.
But can i blame Islam for that, do i lose my faith because of there stupid acts???
the answer is No.

Salaam

Guerilla

Okay, Now i was close to alot of Muslims cuz i had to go and live in lebanon and Syria for three years cuz my dad worked there. I got to learn alot about Islam. Islam is not evil like most of you think. They believe in Jesus as a profit of Christianity and they believe in the same god we do believe in. BTW, the only difference is that they dont believe that jesus got crusified but they think that he was pulled by god to heavens and Judith was the one who got crusified. The main story is similar but with a small different diversion. Second of all, as some of u noted that we cant judge a religion by a small bunch of people who are practising it in a wrong way. Just because women in saudi are not allowed to drive doesnt mean that ISalm doesnt allow women to drive. It is the mistake of those rulers who are using ISlam to keep people under control. Saudi people knows that Women are just like men and they feel threatened by them. It is true that women inharit 1/2 of a men but the at the same time it forces men to provide pocket money for women. The Quran argument is that women are usually less into business and money than men. I had a huge debait with my muslim friends there that cutting hand for a thive is way over the line. I read the quran and it was specified that hands are only cut when the stolen good is very high in price. In other words the thive didnt steal to eat but stole to get alot of money.

I never liked islam in the begining and i love jesus and christianity. but i had to go and live in the middle east and specially syria and lebanon where the real non fundementalist muslims live a nice life. I bet things are pretty chocking in saudi arabia or afganistan. I will never change my christian religion but at least i learned to respect islam which is very close to our religion but just a little more strict.

damn i wrote alot

Originally posted by paperclip
What a load of bull#.

Everything you said there has been debunked many times on ATS, so I won't bother doing it again now, search the previous topics on Islam.

I can see we are going to get on famously
The end is not near it is here.

Christianity: An intolerant, inconsistent fallacy.

Pope Gregory the (allegedly) Great said it was every Christian's duty before God to kill the Muslims who had occupied the Holy Land.

You shall not lie with a man as with a woman - the justification for anti-gay discrimination and hate crimes. The bible says it.

The bible also says you shall not touch the skin of a pig. We haven't strung up too many AFL players lately, not that I've heard of, anyway.

Following this logic no-fault divorces are immoral and sinful. The bible's punishment for adultery is stoning of women.

To quote the man Dubya describes as one his favourite philosophers:

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Originally posted by Warpspeed
I have read the Koran right through, and yes it is rather vengeful and violent. The old testament is pretty bad as well in that respect.

In Arabic? I've been given to understand it's considered illegal by religious authorities to translate. Or am I wrong? I believe there is currently a great debate about the interpretation of the writing as several western scholars have come up with alternative meanings to many of the words. If memory is correct many of the mooted meanings would actually make the Koran a much more moderate and "enlightened" book.

Forget Islam, your own ideology and any other ideology and follow GOD

Originally posted by Warpspeed
There is only one religion that I know of that treats women as the spiritual equal to men and that is Sikhism.

Even Christians regard women as being totally under a fathers, or husbands authority. It is shameful for women to bare their heads in church. And no female apostles, no female priests, and so on.

Islam is only really a few steps further in the same direction.

Even the atheists like the masons hate women by totally excluding them altogether.

So do not condemn another religion for practicing what you practice anyway.

I have read the Koran right through, and yes it is rather vengeful and violent. The old testament is pretty bad as well in that respect.

A bit more tolerance is really called for towards people with different beliefs and skin color to your own. That is what spirituality is all about.

There are religious fanatics and zealots in every country willing to kill torture and destroy for God. They have all lost the plot.

There was actually a woman who posed as a man and became Pope sometime in the middle ages or arround there.

Don't discuss other religions here. They may be bad, etc. but that's not what this topic is about. It's about Islam. Other religions being bad does not redeem Islam. If Susie burned down a neighorhood and I killed someone, that does not mean that Susie is off the hook.

If you want to attack Christianity or some other religion, do it a topic for it, not one for attacking Islam.

After being accused of reading a "bad translation" of the Quran, I went to a huge secular bookstore and compared over 8 different translations of the Quran/Koran, all very pro-Islam; they all said the same things in these verses, to claim bad translation is a cover up. To mystically claim "one must read Arabic" is ludicrous, if you learned the language you would still get the same translation, anything can be translated, and the Quran was not purely Arabic anyway! Contents of Quran confirmed. Additionally, clerics will tell you these verses are "out of context" so I found the "context" in the Hadith and Sira, Islam's other holy books. They show the "method of Muhammad," approaching other countries disguised as peaceful with covert groups (cells) prepared to carry out violence on Christians, Jews, infidels.
Direct quotes from the Quran:

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Hadith 8:82:800e [So, with the clap of a hand, they can do whatever they want?]

The Prophet said, "The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter." (Hadith 8:82:801)

(Isolated incident) ...then prostrated himself, and all who were with him prostrated too. But an old man took a handful of dust and touched his forehead with it saying, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as an infidel. (Hadith 5:59:311)

[yes the Jews and Muslims are both descendents of Abraham, but here is the attitude towards descendants of Abraham through Isaac (the Jews]: "If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)

EDIT: this from another message board: "Interesting thing about this website is the gentleman simply QUOTES the Koran. A young Muslim girl tells him,"I am a good person,yet you say Islam is bad". His reply,"All I do is post Koran quotes,it's your responsibility to accept them as God's Word or fallacious".

Eye opening website,I bet most Muslims have NO clue what the Koran really teaches,most cannot speak Arabic and Arabic is where the Koran is. "

The author of this site used to be Muslim or still is, I can't remember. He also, unlike most Muslims, can actually speak/read Arabic and does analyze the Koran from there. www.faithfreedom.org...

[edit on 11/6/04 by RedDragon]

Originally posted by Illmatic67

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
the bible is the only holy book were the god said that he loved the world and its people

Holy Qur'an, 1:1

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
You do we worship, and Your aid do we seek.
Show us the straight way.
The way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, those whose portion is not wrath, and who do not go astray.

----------------------

You see, reading is so cool. If you actually open up a Qur'an and read it you might learn something.

the true order of the quran
You have to do more than just open the Quran, you have to study it ,
and that it self is not enough you have to study mohammeds life to put it into context then will find that it is not revealed in the same order it was collated.
the first sura is an attack on his uncle who Mohammed feel robbed him of his birthright a founding share in the family buisness the care and feeding of the rock gods at the kaba.

Originally posted by Crash
Well i think the Islamic and Christianic + Judism god is the same god

As Islam from Muhammed see Jesus as a Prophet from god and Christians see Jesus as the son of god meaning that they acknolege the same god and if they both acknolege the same god then i believe the Old testiment ties in with both Judasm, Christians and Muslims from foundation times

(Thats just my opinion i could be wrong)

You are a good person and I used to be in the same boat
Mohammed was not a prophet of any god he just made stuff up to suit his needs
his message is not the same as the message of yhwy or jesus. He(mo) just borrows the names .

Originally posted by worldwatcher
I find this thread to be an ignorant attempt of generalizing an entire religion. You may not want to accept the comparison to Christianity and Judaism but they are there. Mistreatment of Women is not only an Islamic religious doctrine. The status of women in society has always been lower to men in all religions, the 3 mentioned above and others such as Hinduism. Women were always considered second to man, and a woman's humility in being modest and covering her body and respecting her man is not uncommon around the world. I suggest those of you who are ignorant in Islam, read the Koran completely before making broad statements. You will find that it is a book just like the torah, and bible used by men for their motives.

try reading this for a start: maybe you will understand the position of women in islam a little better.
Women In Islam

regarding Mohammed marrying a 10 year old girl...do your history research, you will see in all cultures during ancient times, girls were married at very young ages....and because someone was married did not mean they were sexually involved.. my grandmother was married at the age of 12, she was living with her husband and his family from that age, however she did not "know" her husband in "that" way until she was 16. I repeat again, this practice was and is common in many cultures, please don't bring this argument up again...there are many other issues in the Koran to choose from.

[Edited on 4-13-2004 by worldwatcher]

]
As you can see it was not common to do what you said she was married @6 and raped@ 9 by her own words 9 is to young to rape

Bukhari:V4B52N211 � I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, �Apostle, I am a bridegroom.� He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, �A matron.� He said, �Why not a virgin who would have played with you? Then you could have played with her.� �Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.��

Originally posted by Scat
[
I think one can assume that somebody's got a bit of a prejudice problem...

OK, so here I go, trying to make a good comeback for what you said!


4. OK, once again, I'd like some proof. And don't tell me to go researching, these are your claims. Sure, to me, a 53 year old and a 9 year old seems pretty screwed up, but news flash! There is no universal code of ethics or an understood moral law. Different cultures, different morals. Look at it man: cannibalism, slavery, capital punishment, etc. etc. etc. Different places, different morals. But hey, you could throw away the whole paragraph I just gave but the question still hangs....WHERE DID YOU GET THAT FROM?

.

I think someone does have a prejudice problem they dont seem to be able to muster any.
you will have to learn and descriminate between what is right and what is wrong if your not willing to do that than your not plating and you need to leave the playing field

The greatest fallacy is that of the "moderate" Muslim.

I have met many kind-hearted, friendly, intelligent "moderate" Muslims, and I am proud to count them as friends. But they are not the majority, and they do not represent the Islamic vanguard. In fact i would venture as far as to say that moderates of any faith never truely control their faith's, it's not surprising as relgions don't hold elections on interpretations. Indeed these issues tend to be settled with bloodshed, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc. and i don't invisage a struggle between moderates and fundamentalists, otherwise they wouldn't be so moderate.

the fairest way to "judge" a religion is on its spiritual leadership and its Holy books, Messiahs etc.

Originally posted by RedDragon
if you learned the language you would still get the same translation, anything can be translated,

Very much not true.

I am fluent in one language, can read and write in another and am learning to speak a third. I am also a teacher of language.

How many words in English have no direct translation? How many words must be explained because they are a concept?

What is zeitgeist? Gestalt?

Japanese is full of words which can only be explained through giving an example with many caveats.

Things can be explained, but that is not a translation.

The bible was recently re-translated. And many verses recieved new meanings. Languages change over time. Much of medieval European history is written in Latin, a language only the church now speaks. When translated from Latin to French to English I'm sure the words of Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne change.
Worse, what was written by the Saxons the day before William the Conqueror landed can now only be read and understood by scholars. But it was written in England in the (then) language of that country.

Howlie
My Quran is published by King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur�an�The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques.
If it is not a clear translation I doubt they would be printing it, further more it becomes evident that UBL et al are good muslims properly practing Islam as taught by Mohammed or they are using english Qurans

A Christian is supposed to live their live modeled after the life of Christ. If a person does this they are indeed a very good person.

A Muslim is supposed to live their life modeled after the life of Muhammad. If a person does this they are a murderer, a warlord, a thief, a pedophile and a rapist.

Muslims say that Allah is the same as the Judeo/Christian God. I do not accept this. Why would God have Christ come to totally change man�s relationship with God, then over 600 years later have Muhammad come and revert back to a per-Christ relationship and to pre-Christ brutality. There is no way that this makes sense.

Solarix, spot on I have read the koran, the ibadat and many other

chapters that i can neither spell nor pronounce. In inslamic art book i read

there are nerly no women but mostly pictures of men, mosques, and

angels. How ever islam is reforming it self away from this radical side. In

kurdistan pherhaps the most liberal muslim part of the middle east women

are no longer required to wear headscarves and have near equal rites.My

muslim friends are very respecful towards women and have never said

they hate america. But as you said parts of the koran

are "exclusionary".

Originally posted by EleWM
A Christian is supposed to live their live modeled after the life of Christ. If a person does this they are indeed a very good person.

A Muslim is supposed to live their life modeled after the life of Muhammad. If a person does this they are a murderer, a warlord, a thief, a pedophile and a rapist.

Muslims say that Allah is the same as the Judeo/Christian God. I do not accept this. Why would God have Christ come to totally change man�s relationship with God, then over 600 years later have Muhammad come and revert back to a per-Christ relationship and to pre-Christ brutality. There is no way that this makes sense.

Islam = followers of the mentality of mohammed.
Christians = followers of the mentality of jesus.
Nazi's = followers of the mentality of hilter.

Islam is not connected to judaism or christianity, it rejects all prohopts of those religion's and only follows the ideology of one man called mohammed.

If you look at the word god, it comes from good. You look at the word evil, it comes devil.

To worship god you must be good, with highest form of morality and ethic's. Muslim's with all their terrorist's attacks, beheadings etc have no idea about this notion.

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place, for all those who take the sword will die by the sword. WEB