Islam: An intolerant, inconsistent fallacy

Originally posted by KSoze
River, I'm interested in what you have to say. The 315 messengers you speak of, is there a list of these on the internet somewhere. I'm looking for it right now. Does this list include buddha, jesus, krishna,etc...I'm very intrigued by the notion. Does islam believe buddha and Zarathrustra were islamist?
Even if I do question the rationality of the qu'ran; I will not agree that islam is intolerant. I've had friends that were muslims and they were terrific people. Of course, I don't equate terroists with religion either; I equate them with specific people and groups.
I believe the qu'ran does offer more of a reality than christianity teaches in some areas. For instance islam doesn't support the idea of the trinity or the divinity of yeshua. I'm sure there are much other truths in islam. I look forward to studying it in depth.
I think Scat has summed it up best...The rest is what causes wars...

[edit on 23-6-2004 by KSoze]

Islam acknowledges that there were 125,000 Prophets and 315 Messengers ( and respectively 315 Scriptures) sent to every major community on Earth.

[4:164 Holy Qur'an]
Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-


[10:47 Holy Qur'an]
To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged

There are roughly 25 Prophets that are cited by name in the Holy Qur'an and some found in the Hadiths literature [sayings and customs of the Prophet] and I will try my best to list them here.


Muhammad ( Mohammed/ Ahmad)
Isa Masih ( Jesus Christ)
Ibrahim ( Abraham)
Nu ( Noah)
Ismail ( Ishmael)
Ishaaq ( Isaac)
Ayyub ( Job)
Yunus /Dhul-Nun ( Jonah)
Musa ( Moses)
Harun ( Aaron)
Suleimon ( Solomon)
Da'ud ( David)
Yusuf ( Joseph)
Zakariya ( Zachariah)
Yahya ( John the Baptist)
Elias ( Elias)
Ilyas ( Elijah)
Lut ( Lot)
Idrees ( Enoch)
Hizqeel ( Ezekial) [ source: hadiths]
Dhul-Kifl ( Buddha) [ believed to be Buddha, once thought to be Ezekial]
Khidr ( The Green Man)
Salih
Hud
Luqman
Shu'aib
Dhul-Qurnain [ Darius? Cyrus? ]
Magi ( Zoroaster/Zorothrusa) [ strongly implicated in Qur'an]
Kahan ( Krisna) [ source: hadiths]



---River

Originally posted by River Euphrates

Originally posted by KSoze

I'm very intrigued by the notion. Does islam believe buddha and Zarathrustra were islamist?

The term " Islamists" is actually a term made up by Daniel Pipes. It usually is meant to convey the " militant jihaadi types". I believe you meant " Muslims". Muslims are the follower of Islam.





[edit on 23-6-2004 by River Euphrates]

hmmm we might be going around in circles here because we havent clearly defined certain things.

I have stated in my previous post that I consider religion to be one of the tools of mass control used by goverments and powerful people, and I stand by that. I am strictly against institutionalising religion, ANY religion. In the world like it is today, the mixing of nations and religions, you have to separate religion from state, or it wont work. Western countries have managed to do it to some degree, european countries more then the USA ( which is still one nation under christian God, which God blesses all the time etc, etc). It took them a VERY long time to do it though.

Are we talking about Islam as a religion here, or about Islam as institutionalised tool of mass control? There is a huge difference between those two. Islam IS a peaceful religion. Anyone who has read the whole Qur'an, the WHOLE book over 1000 pages and 114 chapters, not just the "Falwell" verses lol ( the infamous and mistranslated kill all jews and christians verse ), knows that.

Western world was on a killing spree for almost 2,000 years, fighting amongst themselves, fighting with others, burning people alive, mass slaughter everywhere, slavery, etc, etc UNTIL they started to separate religion from state and educate people. And even after that separation some are still war hungry. ( we could also argue here what is considered to be a just war, objective deffinition of just, and what exactly are freedom fighters )
Arab countries could have avoided the dark ages if they had chosen to learn from the mistakes of others. But they didn't. So, here were are now, typical humans, repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Only, islamic dark ages might be far less painfull then christian ones. I really doubt that they will manage to conquer America and Europe, enslave white people, plunder resources, start two world wars and kill 6 million Jews.

I am not defending extremism here, but I am defending Islam. I am Muslim and I am very peaceful, also all my friends are. I am not a terrorist despite reading Qur'an several times. So the problem is not there and the solution is not an easy one. It is a very complex thing.

Let me say this again. I don't care what your so-called holy books say. I don't care what you profess to believe. That is between you and whatever god you choose to worship. I don't worship any of your gods so I have no desire to convert anyone or tell anyone what to believe.

I only care about the evil that people do and what they use to justify that evil to others and themselves. When a Religion is used on a regular basis over a substancial period of time to justify undeniably evil acts, and no one steps forth from that Religion to say "No, that is not us. They do not speak for us. They are Evil and we will join with you to stop the ones doing Evil", then I must see the Religion itself as, if not Evil, then at least inconsistant when others say that it is a religion of peace.

When so much of the Evil appears to be primarily directed at people who are not of the same Religion and that is the reason given for inflicting the Evil act (whatever it is) in the first place, I have to see the Religion itself as intolerant. What do you think would happen if we all went to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Syria and had this entire conversation while standing on a street in front of a Mosque? Do you think we would see Islamic tolerance?

While it may be fine as a personal way of life, Islam seems to me from looking at the various examples that, for the most part (notable exceptions: Oman, Qutar, UAE. thanks to those who answered me) for the most part, Islamic Law is not a good or fair way to run a country and the Islamic system isn't economically dynamic or particularly productive in most cases. If not for the oil some of them have, I don't think their economies would survive without the stimulus of war. Look at the destitute Islamic states that don't have oil. I think the idea that Islam is a good tool for governing large groups of people and running diverse political entities is a really big fallicy.

As for Islamic Scienctific achievements, sorry, but what have you done for us lately except try to build nukes? You would think they would be trying to put Halliburton out of business by figuring out how to drill and extract their own oil better. They should be the most advanced in petrolium technology, but they are not, are they? What do they spend all the oil cash on anyway?

So, I agree with the original topic statement. I conclude that Islam is indeed an intolorant, inconsistant fallacy.

I will go further and say that on a personal spiritial level, I feel that the Islamic interpetation of God, the Universe and about everything else is just factually wrong. Whover you are, I don't believe what you probably believe. Truthfully, I probably don't even respect what you believe. What I respect is your right and freedom to believe it.

Well, I think I've said about everything I think about this subject. I feel like I've proved my points and that of the topic. You may feel differently and thats just fine. That is what being free is all about.

I'll retire from this very interesting thread for now unless somebody wants to address specific points in my postings.

If nothing else, we are all fellow participants in whatever all this actually is, so in that spirit let me say Peace to all.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Let me say this again. I don't care what your so-called holy books say. I don't care what you profess to believe. That is between you and whatever god you choose to worship. I don't worship any of your gods so I have no desire to convert anyone or tell anyone what to believe.

Truthfully, I probably don't even respect what you believe. What I respect is your right and freedom to believe it.

Well, I think I've said about everything I think about this subject. I feel like I've proved my points and that of the topic. You may feel differently and thats just fine. That is what being free is all about.

I'll retire from this very interesting thread for now unless somebody wants to address specific points in my postings.

If nothing else, we are all fellow participants in whatever all this actually is, so in that spirit let me say Peace to all.

I think you made yourself quite clear.

Peace
River

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

In reading your responses I notice that you point out how uneducated the average Muslim is and that most can't read the Quran. If true, I say that in itself proves that Islam is a failure. How can any system of beliefs that purposely keeps it's people in the dark ages be considered good? How can a people that enslaves half of their population be considered good?

I'm not sure what you mean here. I've been in America for over two decades. I have an undergraduate degree in both psychology and anthropology and minored in english. I've worked as a psychologist's assistant and conducted group therapy for children affected with autism and Asperger's syndrome. I am currently in my second year of medical school and once I am done with medical school ...I will , hopefully pursue a degree in law as well. I believe that the stereotype that Muslims are uneducated is not true....

---River

[edit on 23-6-2004 by River Euphrates]

Well Ambient, as I've said on other posts agree to disagree. By the way, if you had your head cut off, it would be because you are American (are you?) not a non-muslim. Iraqi muslims die everyday at the hands of other muslims. Food for thought.

So River, for two decades you have been living in a country that is not an Islamic State and where you have significantly more freedom than you would in countries that are actually ruled by Islamic Law. You have been living where tolerance is the desired, if not the actual standard. You have been exposed to different cultures and people in a society that makes this possible in ways unavailable in the Middle East. You sound like you have accomplished much and you are to be commended for that. I wonder if you would have had the opportunity, or the educational tools you have availed yourself of if you had spent the last 20 years in the Islamic Middle East.

Do you think you are a typical Muslim? Do you think the average Muslim in the middle east has your level of expertise, education, social awareness? Do you think they ever will if things stay as they are in that part of the world? I submit that you are an exception precisely because you have been removed from (or were never in) that enviorment and have existed in a place that did not limit you. I am sure there are many, many more.

This is what I would wish for all Muslims (actually all people). That they could live in an enviorment that didn't limit their choices, an enviorment where they were free to excercise their innate knowledge of right and wrong rather than having to submit to the purposes and agendas of others. I would wish for all Muslims, including women to be equal to all others in every respect, right, and social standing. I would wish all Muslims were free as we here (and you, River) in America are free.

Originally posted by MOOR45
Well Ambient, as I've said on other posts agree to disagree. By the way, if you had your head cut off, it would be because you are American (are you?) not a non-muslim. Iraqi muslims die everyday at the hands of other muslims. Food for thought.

Yes, I am proud to be an American.

Originally posted by Otts

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
You make a good point about context. However, we can assume that the context has changed now, right? Where barbarism and savagry may have been, by your arguement, common and proper in those times. What is their excuse now? The problem with Islam is exactly that. Although the context and situation of the world has changed drastically, Islam will not change or adapt itself to fit new circumstances. Screw the past. Do you think that beheadings and ripping bodies apart in the street to appease the bloodthirsty mob are proper in today's context? Hasn't our social evolution supposedly brought us beyond that? We like to think so.

It appears that the social evolution of Islam just stopped somewhere along the way. They seem to be doing things the exact same way as they did during the dark ages.

Actually, what I was saying was really about the birth of religions. It can be applied to christianity too.

As to the Muslims and killing - obviously, when people die, like Berg, Johnson or Kim, in such a horrendous way, the temptation is great to say that they are all like that - or at least, a vast majority of them. However, I believe that someone in this thread or another one used a term I enjoyed very much: "CNN muslims", that is those who are captured on camera burning flags and shaking AK-47s at the camera. Are most Muslims like that? I don't think we can be so categoric about it. I think the only thing that differentiates Muslim and Christian extremisms is that a number of Muslim extremists will kill in God's name. It's horrible and barbaric, but it's extremism - is it the mainstream? I would hope not, and I'd be stunned.

Besides, is their cause religious or political? I would think political, but they're blanketing it with a religious justification.

The problem with that theory is that the muslim world has failed to codemn these horrific acts of violence. We saw the same thing after 9/11. So if there is a failure to condemn these barbaric acts committed in the name of your religion, it can be equally assumed they are condoned. Why are these so called "extremists" not alienated by the masses who say islam is a religion of peace and tolerance???

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
So River, for two decades you have been living in a country that is not an Islamic State and where you have significantly more freedom than you would in countries that are actually ruled by Islamic Law. You have been living where tolerance is the desired, if not the actual standard. You have been exposed to different cultures and people in a society that makes this possible in ways unavailable in the Middle East. You sound like you have accomplished much and you are to be commended for that. I wonder if you would have had the opportunity, or the educational tools you have availed yourself of if you had spent the last 20 years in the Islamic Middle East.

Do you think you are a typical Muslim? Do you think the average Muslim in the middle east has your level of expertise, education, social awareness? Do you think they ever will if things stay as they are in that part of the world? I submit that you are an exception precisely because you have been removed from (or were never in) that enviorment and have existed in a place that did not limit you. I am sure there are many, many more.

This is what I would wish for all Muslims (actually all people). That they could live in an enviorment that didn't limit their choices, an enviorment where they were free to excercise their innate knowledge of right and wrong rather than having to submit to the purposes and agendas of others. I would wish for all Muslims, including women to be equal to all others in every respect, right, and social standing. I would wish all Muslims were free as we here (and you, River) in America are free.

Well put !!!!!

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
So River, for two decades you have been living in a country that is not an Islamic State and where you have significantly more freedom than you would in countries that are actually ruled by Islamic Law. You have been living where tolerance is the desired, if not the actual standard. You have been exposed to different cultures and people in a society that makes this possible in ways unavailable in the Middle East. You sound like you have accomplished much and you are to be commended for that. I wonder if you would have had the opportunity, or the educational tools you have availed yourself of if you had spent the last 20 years in the Islamic Middle East.

Do you think you are a typical Muslim? Do you think the average Muslim in the middle east has your level of expertise, education, social awareness? Do you think they ever will if things stay as they are in that part of the world? I submit that you are an exception precisely because you have been removed from (or were never in) that enviorment and have existed in a place that did not limit you. I am sure there are many, many more.

This is what I would wish for all Muslims (actually all people). That they could live in an enviorment that didn't limit their choices, an enviorment where they were free to excercise their innate knowledge of right and wrong rather than having to submit to the purposes and agendas of others. I would wish for all Muslims, including women to be equal to all others in every respect, right, and social standing. I would wish all Muslims were free as we here (and you, River) in America are free.

Hopefully freedom will prevail in Iraq. America is the greastest nation on GODS green earth because we are a FREE Nation. Evil people cannot rule free people. That is the reason there is no freedom in any muslim nations.

Hopefully freedom will prevail in Iraq. America is the greastest nation on GODS green earth because we are a FREE Nation. Evil people cannot rule free people. That is the reason there is no freedom in any muslim nations.

What exactly defines freedom ? What exactly do you know of Arab nations ? Bush rules your country.

Deep

We can choose a God to pray to, or make one up and not be killed for it.

Thats not true, many Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc live in Arab countries and are not forced to convert or denounce thier Gods.

Deep

ZD, I'll repeat a question that I asked earlier. What do you think would happen if we all went to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Syria and had this conversation (in normal conversational tones) while standing on the street in front of a Mosque?

[edit added] Isn't it true that it is actually a crime not to be Muslim in Suadi Arabia and the only reason Westerners are not proccesecuted is that there would be no one to keep the oil industry running? [edit end]

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Ambient Sound]

ZD, I'll repeat a question that I asked earlier. What do you think would happen if we all went to Saudi Arabia, Iran or Syria and had this conversation (in normal conversational tones) while standing on the street in front of a Mosque?

We'll have you ever done that, or are you just assuming that they will shoot you regardless of your opinion ? I think we have been filled with false dogmas about how intolerant the Islamic world is. My father goes to the Arab states about once every year, he has never encountered any problems. There are over 10000 foreigners living in Saudi Arabia, and I have yet untill now, heard of anything as vial as these beheadings occuring.

What if I were to walk in front of the Vatican in Rome and express how I dont believed Jesus ever existed and that the entire doctrine was full of fallacy and deciet?

Deep

If you did that at the Vatican, I think you would get a lot of dirty looks but I doubt the Swiss guards would come beat you or anything. For that matter, I can go stand in front of any church in the US (and probably most other western countries) and say anything I want at all and be absolutely assured of having the right to do so. Southern Baptists are espsecially fun to argue with.

Considering that the Intifada was started when an Isreali leader visited an Islamic holy site, my feeling is that in any of the Islamic countries that follow Islamic law strictly, we would be in incredible danger if we had this entire conversation in the hearing range of Muslim Religous leaders. Hey, I didn't just verbally attack your religion, I verbally attacked your government too since your religion is your govenment. Come on, you know what would happen. At the very least we would be arrested if officials could get to us before the mob got too ugly.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

What if I were to walk in front of the Vatican in Rome and express how I dont believed Jesus ever existed and that the entire doctrine was full of fallacy and deciet?

Nothing would probably happen, the people in Vatican City are too old to kick your ash. Haha, just trying to lighten the mood. I was raised Catholic, and I know that Catholics are quite...ahem..proud.

But anyways, back on topic....

Let me be blunt. Alot of people hate Muslims. Personally, I think hating Muslims is as redundant as hating Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and everybody else, because everybody is just going to keep bitching until they run out of air and have to start typing their arguments (ahem..........)

There's no point. Let's stop accusing one another of being fallacies, because eventually, we'll all be standing around feeling empty, of soul and stomach.

Originally posted by DaTruth
There isn't a nation out there that has been peaceful and sucessful.

I'm so sorry, what Im aboutt o say has nothing to do with Islam, you dont have to answer, my random brain was just wondering.....

What about Sweeden? I'm not trying to be a jerk or stupid, I seriously just want to know if theyve started any big feuds.

[edit on 6-24-04 by Scat]