Israeli soldier killed, Gaza truce breached

reply to post by Terapin


But Israel does not occupy Gaza! Thats the whole thing. Israel unilateral withdrew from Gaza as international law demanded, and started (or continued but in much larger amounts) to get rockets on its head. So now you say - hey no need for peace agreement - just withdrew and dig trenches against rockets everywhere in Israel? Because just as Hamas got Gaza after Israel left - it will get West bank. So nobody here is stupid enough to repeat same mistake twice. Palestinians want a country of their own - their full right, sign an agreement to end hostilities that go on since 1948. When Arab side refused to follow UNs verdict and started war.

Anyone want to take the bet that it was Mossad that killed that Israeli soldier? After all, they believe that they haven't finished the job in Gaza; there are still Palestinians living there. The Zionist thugs are not going to stop until they have murdered every last Palestinian. You can count on them doing whatever it takes so that they can continue their genocidal campaign.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Will Israel allow the State of Palestine to exist? Will Israel ever leave the Occupied Territories and stop building Illegal Settlements? Those illegal settlements violate the spirit of the Palestinian people every day.

Before Israel, Gaza was not an isolated concentration camp. I agree Hamas has not done anyone any favors. But most seem to realize that people are fighting against a racist system of Apartheid, and in that fight sadly some will choose violence. Some say terrorist, some say freedom fighter. The choice for violence is even more understandable when Israel keeps breaking promises such as with the continued Illegal settlements. The Palestinian people have been double crossed time and time again. The Violence of Hamas is not helpful, but Israel must share the blame for creating it.

If the Palestinian people were given their own state, and allowed freedom, I suspect that Hamas would loose it's political power. Your average citizen just wants a decent job, a home of their own, and the freedom to love their families in peace, without being oppressed. Take away the oppression and you take away the reason for Hamas to exist. Apartheid is wrong, and creates problems. Ending the Illegal settlements and returning to more or less the '67 border would change things for the better and that is why the world has called for exactly that. Israel refuses. That is why there will never be peace. You can not blame the oppressed, only the oppressor.

[edit on 28/1/09 by Terapin]

Originally posted by Terapin

As the Occupiers, they are legally required to do that under international law. Perhaps you should read the Geneva conventions.

And perhaps you should read up on the Israeli Unilateral Disengagement Plan under which they evicted all Jewish settlers and removed all occupying forces from Gaza by September 12th 2005. So the Geneva accords at that point became meaningless, yet Israel continued to donate, in fact the Palestinian government collapsed when Israeli financial aid was stopped as a reaction to continued rocket attacks.

So to summarize - Palestinian gratitude for Israel evicting its own people, pulling out its soldiers, and giving them continued food and financial aid was to say thank you by trying to murder innocent Israelis.

And that's the point here - the really big point - what the hell do the Palestinians ever do to meet Israel half-way. Are you really so naive as to think that Israel has to do all the work here, that the Palestinians just have to sit and wait to receive new houses, cash, and public apologies - while at the same time they continue to fire missiles into Israel, are you THAT derailed on this issue?

Hamas did not bite the hand that fed it, it bit that hand that oppresses them.

Israel will leave Gaza alone, if Gaza will leave Israel alone, they have gone to great lengths to prove that point. This is about revenge, and the gross stupidity of the Palestinian people who continually rain down misery on themselves.

Zionism is racism.

Zionism is simply supporting the continued existence of the Jewish state of Israel. If you believe that supporting Israel is racist, then you have lost all sense of objectivity.

Israel is a nation of 7 million people, it isn't going to disappear, and if it's attacked it will defend itself.

The Palestinians don't appear to understand either of those facts.

None of the sides of this conflict are going to abide to a ceasefire,
theres to much hatred and bad blood between them and there is no
incentive for each side to give way.

The bad of both sides wish to conquer the other at to high a cost.
the only way i see to go forward is to send in the peacekeeps who have
a heavy mandate to uphold the law.

I'm going to get shot down over this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

For there to be peace over there, one of the belligerents will have to be wiped off the map, and Israel is the one holding the big guns.

reply to post by Terapin


People living in Gaza are "locked up in a concentration camp?"

No, no, no. Gaza has been a territory for many decades. Gaza wanted nothing to do with Israel, and wanted all Israelis out.

Fine!

They're out.

If you buy a crappy house that's too small, you don't complain to the neighbors about it!

If your neighbors build a fence around their property, it's their right, it's their property, and it's their fence.

What does that have to do with Gaza?

Maybe they should look to themselves as the source of the problem. Why is it that Israel felt the need to wall off Gaza?

Why is it, that Egypt doesn't want anything to do with them either?

Could it possibly be that these folks behavior is intolerable to their neighbors?

So whose fault is that?

www.liveleak.com...

Heres the video of the ambush of the IDF soldiers. You can tell its Mossad because of the shouting of Allah Akbar. Reall Islamic freedom fighters would never shout like that because that would give away their position. It would be Mossad that ambush their own and shout Allah Akbar to make the audience think it was Islamic freedom fighters.

reply to post by Retseh


There continue to be a large number of Illegal settlements. Israel drew back from only few. Perhaps you should check again. In fact while they were withdrawing from some settlements, they were building other illegal settlements. The UN continues to call for an end to these illegal settlements. In fact the Israeli Authority for the Protection of Nature and National Parks and the Israeli Civil Administration released a study which proves that Untreated waste water from these illegal settlements is pumped into Palestinian agricultural areas without any commitment to environmental standards and with blatant indifference to the population. Israel has seized more than 80 percent of fresh water resources.

Settlements: The Facts

There are currently 121 Israeli settlements and approximately 102 Israeli outposts built illegally on Pales-tinian land occupied by Israel in 1967. All of these settlements and outposts are illegal under international law and have been condemned by numerous United Nations Security Council resolutions. Israeli outposts are considered illegal under Israeli law.

These settlements and outposts are inhabited by a population of some 462,000 Israeli settlers. 191,000 Israelis are living in settlements around Jerusalem and a further 271,400 are further spread throughout the West Bank. The settler population has grown consistently between 4-6% per year over the last two decades, a much higher rate of growth than Israeli society as a whole (1.5%).

Approximately 385,000 settlers in 80 settlements will be located between the Separation Wall and the Green Line if Israel holds to projected plans.

In 2008, amidst the ‘settlement freeze’ agreed upon in the Annapolis framework, tenders for new settle-ment building increased by 550% from 2007. Actual settlement construction has increased by 30% since the launching of the new round of peace talks. Settlement building around Jerusalem has increased by a factor of 38.

A total of 9,000 further housing units have been approved in East Jerusalem, and approximately 2,600 new housing units are being built east of the Separation Wall, comprising 55% of all settlement construc-tion activity.

Settlements are built on less than 3 percent of the area of the West Bank. However, due to the extensive network of settler roads and restrictions on Palestinians accessing their own land, Israeli settlements domi-nate more than 40 percent of the West Bank.

As for the relevance of the Geneva Conventions.... Perhaps you should actually read them before you spout nonsense. By International law as Occupiers, they are required to provide aid. Even the Israeli Supreme court agrees with this law.

Settlements and International Law

Israeli settlements are illegal under every basic reading of international law:

Article 46 of the Hague Convention prohibits confiscation of private property in occupied territory. Article 55 of the same Hague Convention stipulates “the occupying state shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct”.

Article 49, paragraph 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly stipulates that “the occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies”.

UN Security Council Resolution 465 (1980-unanimously adopted) made it clear that “Israel’s policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants” in the Occupied Territories constitutes “a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East”. The Security Council called upon Israel to “dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease, on an urgent ba-sis, the establishment, construction or planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem”.

The 2004 ruling of the International Court of Justice in The Hague declared that “Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, are illegal and an obstacle to peace and to eco-nomic and social development”.

Israel has done everything they could to destroy any chance of a two state plan, which would allow a Palestinian state. The UN Partition Plan gave 48% of historic Palestine for the Establishment of a Palestinian state. Israel has built up so many illegal settlements that there is only 12% left for the Palestinians.

Israel has a right to exist as a state. Palestine has a right to exist as a state. Zionism is the plan to push out all Palestinians from their rightful land. That is racism. For centuries in historic times, Arabs and Jews lived side by side in the area. The only reason that can not happen now is due to the illegal actions of Israel.

Remember, it was Israel who broke the recent ceasefire that led to the current military action against Gaza, as was widely reported in news outlets around the globe. Israel admits that the rocket fire had stopped during the ceasefire and only began after the November 4th violation of the ceasefire by Israel. Hamas had ended the rocket fire in according to the agreement, but Israel failed to hold up to it's part of the bargain.

Violence Threatens Gaza truce as Obama envoy visits

Palestinian rocket attacks and Israeli air strikes threatened on Thursday to undermine efforts by President Barack Obama's Middle East envoy to reinforce a fragile Gaza ceasefire.

Palestinian militants in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip launched one rocket into Israel late on Wednesday -- the first since the January 18 ceasefire -- and another on Thursday. No one was hurt.

Israeli aircraft then struck in the southern Gaza Strip, attacking a metal workshop that the military called a weapons factory, causing no casualties, and a motorcycle, wounding two militants and 10 youths passing by, medical workers said.

Well, not full blown but tensions are mounting as these 2 itchy trigger-fingered neighbors sit across the fence staring at each other.

Originally posted by Terapin
reply to post by Retseh

 

There continue to be a large number of Illegal settlements. Israel drew back from only few. Perhaps you should check again.

I don't need to, it was perfectly clear the first time around, but I'll provide you with direct evidence, the COMPLETE pull out of Israeli sttlements from Gaza was acknowledged in the 2005 Yearbook of the UN published in 2007 page 514.

We are talking about Gaza, and as previously stated there are no settlements there, and there haven't been for 3 years.

There were 21 settlements in total, and today there are none. Settlements exist elsewhere, but not in Gaza. If you still believe they do exist, please provide some evidence.

By International law as Occupiers, they are required to provide aid. Even the Israeli Supreme court agrees with this law.

I would be interested in seeing your proof of that.

Zionism is the plan to push out all Palestinians from their rightful land. That is racism.

Now you're really confused. Even if what you are saying is true, and it isn't, it does not constitute racism, it is simply a form of imperialism, it isn't that Israel doesn't want Palestinians, it's more simply that they want what the Palestinians are sitting on, their land.

For centuries in historic times, Arabs and Jews lived side by side in the area. The only reason that can not happen now is due to the illegal actions of Israel.

Not true, the tribal hatreds and conflict run back for hundreds of years, and don't forget that the Arab League declared war on Israel the moment the state was created. Long before any land grabs started.

Remember, it was Israel who broke the recent ceasefire that led to the current military action against Gaza

This really represents one of your worst bouts of disinformation.

Both sides agreed to the cease fire on June 19th and it took Hamas exactly 5 days before they broke it by launching 3 Qassam rockets into Israel on June 24th. Thereafter they subjected Israel to a near continual barrage of mortars and rockets during the entirety of June and July, almost daily in fact, this activity dropped off somewhat in August with only 19 attacks, September with only 5 attacks and October with one attack.

On November 4th the Israelis blew up a tunnel that Hamas was using to ferry terrorists and weapons into Israel, killing several terrorists in the bargain, and hallelujah, Israel was of course accused of breaking the cease fire - can you say pathetic.

My evidence:

en.wikipedia.org...

So I'm afraid your case and lack of evidence are complete garbage.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by Retseh]

Originally posted by deltaboy
www.liveleak.com...

Heres the video of the ambush of the IDF soldiers. You can tell its Mossad because of the shouting of Allah Akbar. Reall Islamic freedom fighters would never shout like that because that would give away their position. It would be Mossad that ambush their own and shout Allah Akbar to make the audience think it was Islamic freedom fighters.

Don't you think that if you are able to think of that then the intelligence agency is able to as well and therefore would refrain from doing so to prevent jeopardising their cause. These are people who are selected because they are brilliant thinkers. If someone out there can think of that solution then most likely they would have thought as that as a possibility and wouldn't have acted in such a way.

Originally posted by Catfish
I'm going to get shot down over this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

For there to be peace over there, one of the belligerents will have to be wiped off the map, and Israel is the one holding the big guns.

You are right to say what you think. I believe you have a good point, although it would be simpler just to nuke that entire section of the world out of existence if we are going to take the removal route.

reply to post by Retseh


The Palestinians do not live solely in Gaza. While the settlements around Gaza were evacuated, there still continue to be a large number of Illegal settlements in the Occupied Palestinian territories. If you doubt their illegality, then see what the UN and the International Court of Justice has to say about the matter. Hamas is fighting for the liberation of Palestinians, not just the residents of Gaza.

As for your query about the Responsibilities Israel has as the occupying power. I guess you have never looked at the Geneva Conventions.

[p.812] Paragraph 1 -- Duties of the Occupying power

2779 This paragraph supplements paragraph 1 of Article 55 of the fourth Convention, which imposes on the Occupying Power the obligation "of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population" of the occupied territory. It sets out from the idea that it is too restrictive to limit this obligation to supplying the population of the occupied territory only with food and medical supplies. Thus mention is made here in addition of the provision of clothing, bedding, and means of shelter. In fact, it is quite possible to suffer, and even die, from heat or cold, and it is essential that the civilian population has adequate clothing, bedding and shelter. Urgent action to provide shelter applies particularly if the occupied territory has suffered damage from bombing.

There is more, but you can go educate yourself if you wish. While you are at it, educate yourself about the decision of the Israeli Supreme court over the matter. You will see the truth of my statement that they upheld these responsibilities.

The terms of the Ceasefire were that Hamas would stop launching rockets and Israel would open the borders. Israel admits that indeed Hamas launched no rockets during the ceasefire. Your Wikipedia link is misleading at best, as I will demonstrate in a moment. Israel failed to live up to its obligations under the terms of the ceasefire to lift its economic embargo and open the borders for commerce. You define a break in the ceasefire as the first side to kill again, and as reported on all the major news outlets, Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4. Israel made the claim that it was a preventive measure. A ceasefire, means no one shoots. Hamas had stopped firing rockets and was not being the agressor, Israel was and shot first. You don't have to take my word for it. How about Official Israeli Spokesman Mark Regev who stated that Israel admits that Hamas was not responsible for any rockets launched during the ceasefire and that no Israelis were killed during the ceasefire. Watch the video and learn. Israel Admits to Breaking Ceasefire

Edited to fix formatting issues.

[edit on 29/1/09 by Terapin]

[edit on 29/1/09 by Terapin]

Originally posted by Retseh

I stated..."Zionism is the plan to push out all Palestinians from their rightful land. That is racism."

You Replied "Now you're really confused. Even if what you are saying is true, and it isn't, it does not constitute racism, it is simply a form of imperialism, it isn't that Israel doesn't want Palestinians, it's more simply that they want what the Palestinians are sitting on, their land."

Here is why it is racism. Imperial England was comprised of many people and cultures. In the UK today you can find everyone from Protestants to Pakistanis. It is not that Zionists simply want the land. It is that they want the land ONLY FOR JEWS. Unlike in the UK.

Poll: 81% of Israelis want the land for Jews only.

Remember, The UN mandate which help create Israel gave 48% of the land to the Palestinians, Israel has illegally Occupied all but 12%

The Zionist movement historically made a claim to territory on behalf of 'the Jewish people', an exclusive geopolitical claim. It claimed that individual Jews had a right to residence in that territory, which did not apply to randomly selected non-Jews outside that territory. None of the early Zionists advocated the ethnic cleansing, which in fact preceded the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 - but none of them believed that non-Jews had a right to the Jewish homeland either. Zionists attribute a superior quality to Jews, namely the exclusive right to the Jewish national territory....The State of Israel confers no right of residence or citizenship on persons born outside Israel, unless they have specific links to Israel, to the Jewish people, or to Judaism. That excludes about 99% of the world population.

Palestinians do not possess the right to Israeli citizenship. Palestinians are subject to the same Apartheid system that was abolished as racist in South Africa.

53 years after being exiled from their homeland, in defiance of the four Geneva Conventions, UN Resolutions 181, 194, 242, 338, and others, and other multilateral and international human rights conventions, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the disinherited refugees of Palestine, continue to endure merciless punishment from the Zionist entity.

Israeli immigration is essentially for Jews only, nor is just any Jew is considered up to par. Ethiopian Jews have long struggled to be accepted in Israel, and are highly discriminated against. Rabbis in Israel receive a set salary from the state, based on position, but Ethiopian Rabbis are paid a lower salary for the same rank. The Israeli Health Ministry threw out Ethiopian blood which was collected for medical use despite being perfectly good and uncontaminated, simply because Israelis do not want to be treated with "black blood." Member of the Knesset Ran Cohen (Meretz) stated, “I feel your pain. A country that discriminates against Ethiopian Jews is a racist country." In Zionist Israel, biology determines fate and that is the very definition of Racism.

Yes folks, Zionism=Racism



[edit on 29/1/09 by Terapin]

Back on topic.

Zionist controlled media would love for you to believe that the current violation of the ceasefire since the bombing ended in Gaza, was Palestinian fault for killing an Israeli soldier. That is the topic of this thread. Once again, this is just massive propaganda at work because it simply isn't true.

On January 27th media headlines trumpeted that Palestinians had broken the latest cease-fire: a bomb had killed one Israeli soldier and injured two or three.

Virtually every media outlet reported this action as a major breach in the ceasefire that had begun on January 18th: CNN, AP, NPR, the New York Times, The Washington Post, Fox News, ABC, CBS, the Christian Science Monitor, the LA Times, the McClatchy Newspapers, etc, all pinned the resumption of violence on Palestinians.

There’s just one problem. Israeli forces had already violated the ceasefire at least seven times:

Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer in Khuza'a east of Khan Yunis on Jan 18

Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer east of Jabalia on Jan. 19

Israeli naval gunboats shelled the Gaza coastline, causing damage to civilian structures.

Israeli troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City on Jan 22

Israeli gunboat fire injured 7 Palestinian fishermen on Jan 22

Israeli shelling set a Palestinian house on fire on Jan 22

Israeli tanks fired on the border town of Al Faraheen, causing damage to homes and farms on Jan 24

Yet, Americans who rely on American media for their news on Israel-Palestine are being led to believe that Palestinians initiated the violence (the death of one Israeli soldier) that has now led to Israel’s latest onslaught.

Israel violated the latest ceasefire by killing civilians. The bombing on the 27th was proven to be by the Jihadist and Tawhid Brigades; a Pro Iranian rival faction unconnected to Hamas. Israel tried to spin it to make it look like Hamas was the bad guy and Israel was the innocent victim despite the fact that Israel had been killing innocent civilians all along. What is very telling about Zionist racism in Israel is that in Israel they talk about "innocent civilians" being killed within Israel, but when they talk about the killing of innocent civilians on the Palestinian side, Israel calls them "casualties of war." That terminology is very telling. To Israel I guess, Palestinian civilians don't count.

Israel works hard at spreading disinformation and hiding things it doesn't want people to know, but fact checking uncovers the truth. The Zionist propaganda machine can not stand up to inspection in the light of day.

Originally posted by Terapin
Back on topic.

There’s just one problem. Israeli forces had already violated the ceasefire at least seven times:

Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer in Khuza'a east of Khan Yunis on Jan 18

Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer east of Jabalia on Jan. 19

Israeli naval gunboats shelled the Gaza coastline, causing damage to civilian structures.

Israeli troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City on Jan 22

Israeli gunboat fire injured 7 Palestinian fishermen on Jan 22

Israeli shelling set a Palestinian house on fire on Jan 22

Israeli tanks fired on the border town of Al Faraheen, causing damage to homes and farms on Jan 24

Yet, Americans who rely on American media for their news on Israel-Palestine are being led to believe that Palestinians initiated the violence (the death of one Israeli soldier) that has now led to Israel’s latest onslaught.

And Feb 1st is who's fault? Point is they have never really had a cease fire. That's just western lingo for "we think we're in control." I noticed that if hamas or some faction does attack Israel, Israel doesn't seem to be waiting for anyones opinion before striking back. An agreement is when you agree. These two have not been agreeing we just think they did.

[edit on 2-2-2009 by rightwingnut]

reply to post by rightwingnut


The Point is that israel has been claiming that Hamas violated the cease fire, when it simply isnt true. They wish to place blame for the violence on Palestinians, despite that Israel provoked it and started it.

Israel made the claim that there was a ceasefire, not me, and then Israel claimed that Hamas broke it. The information I presented proves that it is just a smokescreen designed to distract people from the truth. It is simply Zionits propaganda.... another Lie.

Okay friday the 6th, who's fault was that? This palestinian is killed for carrying a bomb. Is'nt that what you are suppose to do in a war zone? And they didn't say he killed anyone. I just guess threats are threats no matter how far away they are. So that warrants more high powered obliteration. Gee some truce. Yes, "cease-fire", there means "wait, let me reload."

***News Update***

Israel says no cease-fire until soldier comes home

Top Israeli Cabinet ministers Wednesday set a series of tough conditions for accepting a proposed cease-fire with Hamas, saying there would be no deal until the Islamic militant group releases a captured Israeli soldier.

The unanimous decision by the 11-member Security Cabinet was likely to set back Egyptian efforts to broker a long-term truce in the wake of Israel's harsh military offensive in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip last month. Israel planned to dispatch a senior envoy to Cairo in the coming days.

....

Reopening the border is the top priority of the Hamas government. Speaking at his headquarters in Syria on Tuesday, Hamas' exiled leader, Khaled Mashaal, complained about Olmert's conditions.

"There can be no truce unless the (Gaza) blockade is lifted and the crossings are opened. The truce issue should not be linked to the issue of prisoner Schalit," he said Tuesday.

As usual, neither side is backing down.