Israeli soldier killed, Gaza truce breached

Originally posted by captiva
Israel want rid of the Pallestinians permanently. IMO thats a fact.
They must surely be becoming the most hated race on this planet. But their time will hopefully come.

Don't fall into that pit. There are many Israeli's that are sick of what their gov't does. Check out Machsom Watch. Don't blame a whole race for what the actions of a few do. THAT thinking is what's exacerbating the problem.

reply to post by intrepid


And what do they do about it? those Israelis who are sick of what their government does? Will they be the next batch of Israeli citizens who build on the ground that is cleared that was allocated to the Pallestinians as refuge camps.

When I dont beleive my government or any authority is right I do something about it. Be it Thatcher and her poll tax or the Glasgow HQ and the BBCs lack of support for the aid for Gaza...(yes I was there).

If the Israeli government can do what they want against their peoples wishes I say it is their people to blame.

Respects

Originally posted by captiva
If the Israeli government can do what they want against their peoples wishes I say it is their people to blame.

I'm sorry my friend but there is no logic in that. The Israeli electoral system, while similar to ours, is quite different. Minority gov'ts, coalition gov'ts are the norm, not the exception. That pretty much takes the individual voter out of the Knesset's decisions. Put the blame where it belongs, right on the Knesset.

Intrepid is correct. In fact, many jews around the world, and within Israel as well, have been quite vocal in their opposition to the attacks on Gaza. Many Jews seek an end to the conflict through returning the occupied territories to the Palestinians, as required by international law.

You can not blame 100% of any society but you can point the finger clearly at it's leaders.

Originally posted by captiva
There are no such things as "terrorists" as its only a word used as a propoganda tool.

Israel want rid of the Pallestinians permanently. IMO thats a fact.
Israel must surely be becoming the most hated race on this planet. But their time will hopefully come. I hope I live to see it.

People such as yourself who plainly despise the Israelis never offer any suggestions as to exactly how Israel should stop Hamas from launching rockets at them.

So how about it, let's hear your roadmap for Israel, what exactly should they do when the next barrage of rockets lands in their towns?

How can they appease the terrorists.

It is very important to note, that the individuals who carried out this most recent attack, were from a Pro-Iranian militant group that gets it's funding from Tehran. It was not Hamas, nor a Palestinian group. The IDF knows this, yet chooses to kill more Palestinian civilians. They shot and killed a farmer in retaliation.

Sick. Israel knows Hamas and the Palestinians did not cause the attack, yet they still kill more innocent civilians. Zionism is clearly racism.

An Israeli soldier is killed and Tzipi Livni doesn't care who did it? That's a very dangerous attitude. It could have been an agent from a number of countries trying to restart the conflict, and it appears to have worked.

She should at least investigate who killed the soldier. This smells of 9/11.

reply to post by Retseh


Retseh, The clear answer to the dilemma has been put forward for a long long time.

Just as the UN has called for, Israel must abide by international law and end the illegal occupation of the Palestinian Territories. It must vacate all illegal settlements. It must allow the People of Palestine to form their own state and to govern themselves free from oppression. Just as Jews who suffered and had property stolen from them during WWII demanded compensation, Israel must also pay compensation for their crimes. Israel must end it's system of Apartheid and concentration camps.

Your average Palestinian simply wants to have a decent job, a home of his own and a chance to love his family free from oppression. Palestinians fight for their freedom because they have been oppressed for far too long. As I posted before.... A Winner of the Nobel Peace Prize and world leader stated:

"Peace will come when Israel grants to Palestine only that which Israel demands for itself; a right to exist and a nation of their own.
60 years of misery and death have resulted from Israel's basic hypocrisy of demanding recognition while refusing to give it."

So long as Israel continues to abuse the People of Palestine, it will never know peace. Instead they should try to follow the teachings of their own religion and treat all people with kindness. An olive branch would work far better than a stick.

Israel should start, by obeying the law.

Originally posted by Terapin
Retseh, The clear answer to the dilemma has been put forward for a long long time.

Just as the UN has called for, Israel must abide by international law and end the illegal occupation of the Palestinian Territories. It must vacate all illegal settlements. It must allow the People of Palestine to form their own state and to govern themselves free from oppression. Just as Jews who suffered and had property stolen from them during WWII demanded compensation, Israel must also pay compensation for their crimes. Israel must end it's system of Apartheid and concentration camps.

And would you not say that Israel has gone to great lengths down that very road. The scenes of the military arresting settlers who refused to vacate occupied land, the free elections in Gaza (where they oh so gratefully elected Hamas), and the continual shipment of food, medical supplies, and cash right into the hands of those people who are trying to kill them all shows remarkable efforts to appease.

Meanwhile Hamas continued to launch rockets at the "hand that feeds it".

Do you honestly believe that Israel could do anything to find peace with the Palestinians, anything short of disappearing that is?

Since you asked, here is My proposal for peace:

Begin with roughly the 1967 border as outlined by the UN. The exact details and map locations can be negotiated more or less, but roughly along those lines. Palestine on one side. Israel on the other. Make a 10 mile wide no mans land in between. No one is allowed to live in this no mans land, other than perhaps an international peace keeping force. Fences make good neighbors and a little bit of breathing space in this case would be a good idea. They can decide to share that land use between them for agricultural purposes only, equally sharing in the harvest. Make the entire area a no fly zone. Israel leaves all the illegal settlements behind intact, so that Palestinians can move out of the concentration camps they have been forced into. After all, it was international funding that allowed Israel to afford building the settlements. No one gets Jerusalem as the Holy monuments belong to the world and we don't need any one squabbling over ownership. Make Jerusalem an independent UN protectorate. Pay compensation to the people of Palestine for the property that was taken from them. End US funding of Israel. Either they can stand on their own economy, or they cant, but they have to learn to stand on their own feet.

For centuries Jews and Arabs lived side by side in that area, much like they do in other places in the world. There is no reason why that cant happen today once the oppression ends.

So long as Zionists continue their racist ways, and continue to force Palestinians into concentration camps in a system of Apartheid, they will never know peace. Peace begins with an outstretched hand, not with a bomber jet and barbed wire camps.

reply to post by Retseh


Israel forcing settlers out of their homes was a sham. They only did that to a very very small percent of the settler population. Meanwhile they were busy building even more illegal settlements. That is not in any way productive. It was a smoke screen only. As for food shipments and such. As the Occupiers, they are legally required to do that under international law. Perhaps you should read the Geneva conventions. In addition, most of that aid, comes from outside Israel and is paid for by others. Israel simply allows it through the border.

Hamas did not bite the hand that fed it, it bit that hand that oppresses them. Apartheid is oppression clear and simple. We ended it in South Africa because it was wrong and it is time we end it in Palestine. Zionism is racism.

[edit on 27/1/09 by Terapin]

The IDF just announced that it was a pro-Iranian group that placed the bomb but Hamas is still guilty. Two birds with one stone or should I say one DIME bomb?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It is all Israel's fault. They need to be deprived of military aid and send to jail for war crimes.

End of story.

reply to post by intrepid

Here's a thought. Why doesn't Israel just send in the infantry? Fight by the same rules as Hamas? No tanks, no bombers, no attack helicopters? Bring a knife to a knife fight instead of a bazooka?

Though I find the logic hard to follow myself the sad thing at play here when it comes to legitimizing the aggression of factions in the Middle East is this ‘Might makes right’ mentality where the presumption is he who obtained the best weaponry and standoff attack capability must be the most moral, politically correct and legitimate.

I think it’s one of the reasons so many lesser informed and studied people are quick to reach the assumption that Hamas and the Palestinians are in the wrong because they have always been on the loosing side though it is primarily because of disparity of weaponry and logistics.

I personally think Hamas would likely win in a man to man equally armed urban combat setting or at least make it so costly for the Israeli’s it would expose that their use of standoff and attack weaponry is a form of terrorism in not only it’s own right but in a much more deadly and destructive way.

If America stopped babying Israel and left them to fight their own battles I'm sure the violence would stop against the Palestinians. Just FYI since Israel was established we have given them $84,854,827,200. Intrepid mentioned letting them fight on a level playing field. Take away their funding from America and you might see just that . Oh and by the way the total cost per Israeli is $23,240.

Wiki Link

WRMEA

Israel should improve the wall between them and Gaza, and permanently seal off all previous points of ingress/egress.

This is ridiculous.

He said/she said.

Wall off Gaza completely, and if rocket attacks come across the wall, then require Hamas to find the guilty parties, try them, and execute them. All a show of good faith.

If Hamas elects not to bring the guilty to justice, then retaliate.

reply to post by dooper


So you say lock people up in a concentration camp, and that will solve the problem??

That IS the problem. Israel needs to abide by international law and LEAVE the occupied territories. The Palestinians are fighting for a state of their own, free from oppression and Apartheid. It is that simple. The UN has long called for Israel to end their oppression because everyone knows that is the cause of the problems.

If you want walls, then fine, But put them where they belong. Return the occupied territories and abide by the UN mandate. Start with the '67 borders and build a wall there. Follow the Geneva conventions. A concentration camp will never solve anything, it just makes things worse.

Hamas has repeatedly refused to officially recognise Israel and to renounce violent resistance, because it is being held to an unfair standard, and points out the fact that Israel refuses to recognize any hope for a Palestinian state.

What Israel is doing is the same thing the Nazis did in the Jewish ghettos they created. Read bout the Warsaw ghetto and look at the Obvious similarities. Force people off their land into small overpopulated areas, then deny them any hope of freedom or quality of life. That is how Hitler treated the Jews and how Israel treats the Palestinians. Read your history. If you were locked in a cage and denied basic human rights, you would fight back too.

reply to post by Terapin


There are three main problems that must be solved before peace agreement is signed.Here they are from less problematic to more problematic:
1) Border issue. It is the easiest one. Even now some of road blocks are being re-build into what looks like border posts. Of course population shift is inevitable - with conflicts, mayhem and such. but still it is easiest thing to solve.
2) Status of Jerusalem. This is complex religious, political, historical, ethnically, diplomatic problem. Very very complex thing. But even that is not the toughest one.
3) Refugees. Israel cannot accept right of return. No politician (i do not mean from Arab parties) would agree to that- even extreme left ones. Palestinian cannot accept peace without right of return since one who will sign it will be lynched - historically and probably physically too. This is the main reason for BOTH sides stalling the process. Due to shear fear of even approaching the issue.
It is not just signing a paper. It is fate of nations being discussed and i see no solution on the horizon for now. Both nations are too polarized and suspecting (and probably justifiably too) each other's intentions. Lack of trust and presence of a lot of spilled blood and even simple property question are not helping to solve three main problems above.

reply to post by Terapin

What Israel is doing is the same thing the Nazis did in the Jewish ghettos they created. Read bout the Warsaw ghetto and look at the Obvious similarities. Force people off their land into small overpopulated areas, then deny them any hope of freedom or quality of life

Gaza existed before 1948. Gaza was under Egyptian rule for 20 years after 1948. Nobody was "pushed" into Gaza after Israel captured it in 1967. Gaza was not sealed until ROCKETS and MORTARS started to rain down on Israeli civilians - (and even then it took a few years for Israel to decide on this method), first in Gaza settlements and then after Israel removed its own settlers (even from area that was Jewish before 1948) from Gaza those rockets range expanded to include Israel proper. So no lectures of Ghetto are needed. Nobody attacked Nazis before ghetto was sealed. Any comparison is not valid.Level of life of Palestinians in Gaza dropped sharply after their elected government continued to attack Israel as it did when Fatah was in charge. If nobody attacked Israel then no blockade would be needed. As opposite to ghetto when blockade was only to starve people out - without any regard to what they do. And that ghetto was totally destroyed and almost all its residents were killed for trying to attack Germans after years of unprovoked blockade. As opposing to Israel-Gaza war where Gaza is still there and vast majority of people is there and even the same leadership that brought Gaza all the awful things is still there.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


So tell me then, What is wrong with following the UN call for the End of Occupation? Allow the Palestinians a state of their own. Return to the '67 borders, more or less and end the Illegal settlements.

Apartheid is racism and under that system there can never be peace.

Both the United Nations and the International Court of Justice refer to the area as the "Occupied Palestinian Territories," with Israel being the occupying force.
Israeli settlements in those areas are a clear violation of established international law. This violation has been affirmed by a majority of members of the Geneva convention, as follows: section 12.

"The participating High Contracting Parties call upon the Occupying Power (Israel) to fully and effectively respect the Fourth Geneva Convention in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and to refrain from perpetrating any violation of the Convention. They reaffirm the illegality of the settlements in the said territories and of the extension thereof."

The West Bank, and the Gaza Strip have been referred to as occupied territories (with Israel as the occupying power) by Palestinian Arabs, the rest of the Arab bloc, the UK, the EU, the USA, and both the General Assembly and the Security Council of the United Nations, the International Court of Justice, and even the Israeli Supreme Court.

If israel would abide by international law and end the illegal occupation and illegal settlements then things would be a lot more peaceful in the region. This has been the agenda for years. Yet each and every time, Israel has failed to keep it's promises, and continues to violate international law. Until Israel ends the illegal occupation and illegal settlements, there is little chance of any peaceful resolution. Hamas in Gaza is like the dog in the corner. If you keep poking it with a stick, it will eventually bite back, But it isn't the dogs fault. Stop poking it with a stick all ready.

As a well respected world leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner stated

"Peace will come when Israel grants to Palestine only that which Israel demands for itself; a right to exist and a nation of their own.
60 years of misery and death have resulted from Israel's basic hypocrisy of demanding recognition while refusing to give it."

Gaza is a concentration camp pure and simple.