Avalon – Gateway to Annwn – Celtic Underworld 'Land of the Dead' believed found.

While remaining on topic of ancient Celts and the Land of the Dead. Just 1 mile from me (yes I am lucky!) is an ancient burial chamber over 4,500 years old called Barclodiad y Gawres.

A truly fascinating and beautiful place, situated in a mound atop a cliff surrounding a bay on the West coast of Anglesey. What makes this so special is although the chamber itself is locked, anyone can obtain the key on weekends and go inside - it is breathtaking, magical and a truly spiritual experience.

The newly revealed carving at Barclodiad y Gawres, a chevron design pecked into the rock with a stone chisel, brings to six the number of decorated slabs with lozenges, cupmarks, concentric circles and spirals in a tomb already regarded as one of the most spectacularly decorated prehistoric burial monuments in Britain

External Source

I know a lot of Americans heading over to Ireland get the train to Holyhead to catch the Irish ferry to Dublin - well that train has just whizzed you past all the sites you have seen on this thread - Next time you may do well to stop!

[edit on 24/1/09 by vonspurter]

Another great find - Nice 1! I especially like the colour of the stone inside - is it the actual colour or is there lighting inside creating that effect? Im also interested to see that the name of the chamber translates to 'The Giantess's Apronful' Id like to know why that name was chosen (was there any info at the site?)
Also, how cool that you can obtain the key to enter it - I imagine that would add to the mystery and excitement of visiting such a place

By the way - Ive found an image of the housing thats been built around the druids circle. Its not a big photo but you will get the idea

www.bbc.co.uk...

(I tried p[utting the link up earlier buit it wasnt working - let me know if you have any probs)

Cheers

[edit on 24/1/09 by mrvalleyboy]

Seems like Shakespeare wasn't far off the mark in Macbeth.

"Eye of newt, and toe of frog, Wool of bat, and tongue of dog, Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting, Lizard's leg, and howlet's wing,-- For a charm of powerful trouble, Like a hell-broth boil and bubble."

Remains of cremated human bone were found in the cells, but the central chamber seems to have been used to prepare a stew with some, mercifully lost, ritual significance: analysis suggests the ingredients included fish, eel, newt, frog, toad, mice, shrew and snake.

External Source

Hmm interesting - A giants cauldron perhaps?! Maybe the Nephilim were still about in Wales and eating the locals back then?! Ok theres a little humour in that but hey anythings possible in my humble opinion1

Cheers again!

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
When the Normans and Romans invaded the UK well before these books were written, even though Wales never fell like England to the invaders, when parts of the south were occupied,

Ok, I've waded through many posts of people "proud of being 100% celtic" and a couple of people dumping on the English, but I've had enough of the ethnic ego massaging at the expense of the truth.

Firstly, as had been pointed out, the vast majority of the British Isles is genetically all related. The Roman, Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions just changed the leadership classes, not the common people.

So it's all very nice seeing you all being "proud to be Celtic", but we all are! Some 80% of the genes in the UK can be traced back to Paleolithic times and point to an initial migration of people from Iberia. We are also genetically related with the people of Brittany in France, who speak a Brthyionic language and Brittany litterally means "Little Britain".

I'm from Cornish stock, my family only left Cornwall during my Dad's generation, but that doesn't distinguish me or make me any more special or have more rights to call this home than those who live in Suffolk or Cumbria.

Secondly, the above quote isn't true. The Romans invaded and took over "Wales" just as much as they did England, including all the way up North to Anglesey. The only people they didn't conquer were the Scots/Picts. They did try and made some headway, but it really wasn't worth the effort.

Not many people know that or that St Patrick is also a WELSHMAN who went and converted the Irish

So the Welsh invented Star Wars and now they lay claim to a Patron Saint of the Irish? Whatever next? Were the Welsh the first on the moon too? Patrick was born in what is now Carlisle. Show me some evidence he was "Welsh". The "welsh" people didn't even exist until the 8th or 9th century, so how can someone born in the 4th century be described as such?

[edit on 24/1/09 by stumason]

I've often wondered if this area of wales is where standing stones originated, spending time in the valleys you notice some amazing boulders standing like lone journeymen totally alien to the area they're in -often standing in the center of a vast sweeping valley, the dark rock they're made of not seen for many miles. These are glacial erratics which have been carried in vast glaciers and deposited as the melted, those carried on the bottom are ground into perfectly smooth often elongated shapes while those carried ontop of the ice remain rough and ancient looking.

I often wonder if stone age man, who was of course stone obsessed. saw these massive and mighty (the rock they're made of is much harder than the softer valley rock) stones and not knowing how they were placed created a myth around them. They must have used them as markers at first, it's easy to imagine them saying 'lets meet at 'the old wonderer' or 'at the lone stone head to the setting sun and over two hills...'

Myth and affection would develop for the stones, stories would develop and a sort of magical power would exist around the stones for people of the community -maybe they simple bring back fond memories of childhood or maybe they set off some deep mystical desire to understand the power of the earth. I'm sure it was an inevitable step that saw them standing up stones found laying down, then some king or merchant needed his own and the trend of dragging these massive rocks around began.

of course menhires are popular all over northern europe, i think the concept of an awesome rock standing up is so universal that all cultures make them for their own reasons.

with the coming of 2012 its interesting to see that all the spiritual stuff is being found including the underworld or land of the dead...i recently read the coming of the end of the mayan calender and when i read all this i was blown away by what i read...i wonder how the human race would take to the fact if they prove that the land of the dead is real..i often wondered what people would say if a ufo landed on the whitehouse lawn and asked ..TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER...i sort of feel sorry for the new arrivals ..we do have the tendency of shooting first..we are so barbaric...what would this mean to all of us if it proves to be the other dimension the dimension of the dead..i for one will be thrilled to know that my loved ones are over there and to beable to see them without any trouble would be so great..as an experiencer myself, i can say without a doubt that extraterrestrials do exist and i dont blame them for not appearing to anyone on a waking level..i have seen with my own two eyes what the army is capable of doing to people claiming alien abductions..the time is coming folks and we have to change our perception of our reality...thanks for listening..

reply to post by stumason


Apparently St. Pat was born in a welsh speaking part of scotland oddly
Some info here about him

www.britannia.com...

I love the countryside in wales ( as i live here) but the people are a different matter. Being welsh is all about who you aren't rather than who you are. Its divided into so many different areas that if i travel west from my home town in the north for half an hour i would probably be beaten up for being "english" if i strayed upon some drunks. And lets not even get started on the animosity between the south and north.

Well your Avatar & Wording says it all however, to respond in kind Stumason, Some truth truth then for you:

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
When the Normans and Romans invaded the UK well before these books were written, even though Wales never fell like England to the invaders, when parts of the south were occupied,

Ok, I've waded through many posts of people "proud of being 100% celtic" and a couple of people dumping on the English, but I've had enough of the ethnic ego massaging at the expense of the truth.

You are correct in a type of way, the Roman invasion was long, wide spreading and very strong, however total domination never took place, and to say so is like saying Iraq has been conquered by the US or that a Jewish Man can walk down in a street in the West Bank in safety, as he can in Jerusalem.

The Romans were the first recorded invaders and made bases at Caerleon, Cardiff and Carmarthen, plus other towns and ports on the strategic route, along the coastal plains of South Wales and a number of major routes through Mid and West Wales. The 'gold' route was from Pumsaint in Carmarthenshire where the Dolaucothy goldmines are situated (on the A482 Lampeter to Llanwrda road) to Llandovery, Brecon, Abergavenny and eastwards to Gloucester Cirencester and beyond.

When the Normans invaded, much the same happened. Wales was never totally subjugated by the Romans or the Normans, with the exception of the coastal plains of South Wales, the county of Pembrokeshire, and strategic parts of the coast from north to south. The castles controlled the rivers and estuaries, which were the main lines of communication for trade and military control. The Normans had the richest agricultural land, so food was relatively easy to obtain and control, but at a cost. The number of castles built by the Normans, and later on the English, is an indication of the turbulent history of this nation, in fact there are more castles in Wales, than in the whole of Europe.

1

There is a reason More Castles were built in Wales than in any part of Europe, to protect the invaders and friendly to the invaders locals, from the continuing and never abating onslaught by the Welsh.

In fact if you knew your history you will find even in the 19th C england had to send troops to the "Chartarists" in South Wales still to murder people and re gain control. It never has stopped since the Day Britain has been invaded, and there has always since that day been an ongoing, active and real struggle by any power to totally subjegate the Welsh.

Firstly, as had been pointed out, the vast majority of the British Isles is genetically all related. The Roman, Anglo-Saxon and Norman invasions just changed the leadership classes, not the common people.

Maybe in the Lowlands of England, but if you know anything about the Picts and also the Welsh heritage you would not say this. Much Intermingling has taken place, and yes the Brittain of real is based on the CELTIC descendants who did come to Britain and continued to from about 30,000 BCE or before.

Brittainy in France is of similar heritage and where many of my anscestors would have come from, however as I only mentioned the Norman and Roman invasions I didn't think we were going that far back!
We can go even further I am sure and find roots in Africa along the Rift Valley, even with the Normans and Romans lol.


You also fail to look at the Maths of the stats you use.

There are only 3 million people in Wales, the Population of the UK is around 60 Million most who live in England.... do the Math yes many might find their cultural and genetic mix about 80% but that is the mongrels in the english regions, the blood of many Welsh people especially away from the coastal regions is much differant, and not soo mixed by invading armies.

Though obviously after the industrial revolution, and especially the Coal Boom in the south things have changed. In fact Cardiff is one of the most culturally diverse parts of the UK due to its long Seafaring history, and being the busiest Dock in the World during the Coal Years.
So it's all very nice seeing you all being "proud to be Celtic", but we all are! Some 80% of the genes in the UK can be traced back to Paleolithic times and point to an initial migration of people from Iberia. We are also genetically related with the people of Brittany in France, who speak a Brthyionic language and Brittany litterally means "Little Britain".

I'm from Cornish stock, my family only left Cornwall during my Dad's generation, but that doesn't distinguish me or make me any more special or have more rights to call this home than those who live in Suffolk or Cumbria.

This is one of the parts of the original Britain that had the Druidic Culture, and were truly Celt.

Its a pity your dad chose to move away and in one generation later you are proud to be English, which is just a mix match of Norman invaders, the Vandals, Romans and such like when you should be proud to be an Briton!

Secondly, the above quote isn't true. The Romans invaded and took over "Wales" just as much as they did England, including all the way up North to Anglesey.

Look at my external text above, here is some more, that may have been taught to you inschool lol, but that does not make it true. My Own Great Grandmother was a 100% Welsh Speaker. Parliment in England even that recently as well as sending troops to Newport for the Charterist Uprising and killing men in the Market in front of children and wives, also did the following, they sent English speakers to all of Wales. My Great gran told me stories of how things changed soo quickly, she was beaten by the new teacher whenever conversing with friends in the class in Welsh. If any of the children of that generation spoke Welsh, their native tongue to another child they were Beaten. That was parlimentary policy for welsh schools!!!!

Be careful Stu mason you are touching some Raw nerves here OK!!

The only people they didn't conquer were the Scots/Picts. They did try and made some headway, but it really wasn't worth the effort.

Not true Im afraid Stumason Wales never totally fell either:

He not only conquered most of Wales but pushed farther north into Caledonia (Scotland) than any Roman had ever been.

Roman success was short-lived, however. Heavy military defeats on the Danube forced the Romans to withdraw part of their army from Britain in 87 or 88, and as a result most forts beyond the Cheviots were abandoned

Roman Britain

Of note in historical Truth circles outside of Education system in the English schools is the following to

History suggests it took Rome 30 years to conquer most of the Wales, then it took two thirds of the Roman army just to keep peace in Wales.

3
Note the MOST, which is being glossed over again by an englishwriter? I could then say by the same token as the invasions into Scotland that Scotland Fell???

BTW for all interested if you look at this topic anyone you will find it took just 4 yrs to totally Subdue the English Lowlands, with the exception of the Celts in Cornwall who refused and became famous with the female warrior Boudecia.

So the Welsh invented Star Wars

It was a joke tongue in cheek and if anyone reads my posts I was drawing an allegory between Modern day films and the Classic Romances of humans literay past, I could have used similair classics from Greece, or the Middle east.

and now they lay claim to a Patron Saint of the Irish?

YES

Whatever next?

SOME TRUTH???

5. St. Patrick was a Welshman.
On March 17th, when St. Patrick's Day is widely celebrated in so many communities in the United States (where much more fuss is made than is found in Ireland), most Americans assume that Patrick was an Irishman. It is not so.

Though Patrick's birthplace is debatable, most scholars seem to agree that he was born in the area of southeastern Scotland known as Strathclyde, a former Celtic kingdom and Welsh-speaking at the time. (However, a few scholars continue to regard St. David's in Pembrokeshire as the saint's birthplace; the tiny city was formerly directly in the path of missionary and trade routes to Ireland).

Brittania

He spoke Welsh therefore was from a welsh family/tribe and was probably West Wales and not strathclyde!

Were the Welsh the first on the moon too? Patrick was born in what is now Carlisle. Show me some evidence he was "Welsh".

Look above!

The "welsh" people didn't even exist until the 8th or 9th century, so how can someone born in the 4th century be described as such?

Semantics totally, it is like saying a Native American Indian is talking rubbish about his anscestors before America was named... trash... read some truth not propoganda,

We didnt even exist until the 8th or 9th Century?

That is an outright lie and shows your Racial hatred of the Welsh Culture and people. I find it deeply upsetting and very very indicative of your ability to look at these facts properly and debate it.

Welsh and therefore the culture that speaks it, is probably besides the Aboriginals of Australia the OLDEST surviving spoken languahe in the entire World!

The Welsh language is one of the oldest still living languages in the world.

6

No we didn't go to the moon but for other people some information about this country that many don't know because of the editing of History by the English Parlimant!

contd....

Originally posted by flyattic
reply to post by stumason

 

Apparently St. Pat was born in a welsh speaking part of scotland oddly
Some info here about him

www.britannia.com...

St Patricks own words say he was born in the region of Carlisle, which could be the same area of Southern Scotland.

As for welsh speaking, well the welsh language itself didn't start to change from Roman-british brythionic into Welsh until sometime around the 8th or 9th century, so I suspect there is some welsh historical revisionism here.

Almost everyone in Brittania in the 4th century would have spoken either Latin, a Brythionic language or both, so it is somewhat of a stretch to claim that he is Welsh.

As stated above, everyone has some ancient British genes in them, to the point were 80% of the population is the same stock as even before the Romans came. The only reason that the "english" speak one language and Welsh speak another is down to the fact that Anglo-Saxon culture didn't spread that far when they invaded, so the Welsh and Cornish kept their distinct Romano-British culture whereas the area's that fell to the Anglo-Saxons developed the "English" culture. We are the same people at the end of the day.

The man who wrote the American Declaration of Independence was Welsh!

Most of the founding fathers nearly 80% of them were from welsh parents/grandparents.

The worlds first 1 £Million cheque and Business Deal was done in cardiff in a building known as The coal exchange.

As stated there are more Castles in Wales than another country in Europe

Wales powered the industrial revolution, 80% of all the enrgy that cahnged the history of Mankind came from the Blood and sweet of the welshMen in the Mines, without Welsh Coal there would not have been an industrial revolution as we record it.

The first true flight of a plane was not by the wright brothers but done in West Wales some time before.

The first iron bridge known in the world was built in Wales.

As shown by another poster the stones of Stonehenge were mined from the Blue Stones in Wales.

The Dogellau Mines have the purist and most coverted Gold found anywhere in the world, and every British royal Ring & Crown has been sourced from these.

I could continue.... but for such a small population wales has had a profound impact on the world,

Nos da

Stumason

We will win the first Game btw

Elf

Originally posted by stumason
As for welsh speaking, well the welsh language itself didn't start to change from Roman-british brythionic into Welsh until sometime around the 8th or 9th century, so I suspect there is some welsh historical revisionism here.

What are you going on about Stumason?

You are very much now acting like the typical English people, those who beat my great Gran for speaking Welsh as a child in school to her friends,

YOu are lying outright and I am taking real offense to what you say.

8th or 9th C ???? WTF

its one of the oldest continual Languages in the World, READ learn and stop supporting Rascism.

Elf.

We are the same people at the end of the day.

You might want to be StuMason but you are not I am afraid.

Humans Are Humans but I would Die even as a pascifist before I accept any of the Culture, Actions and stance of the English Parliment and London, being forced on me.

You might want our Coal before, and want our men to fight Londons Wars bet we are not the same, we have very very differant cultures and views, especially it seems when it comes to the Truth.


[edit on 24-1-2009 by MischeviousElf]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
There is a reason More Castles were built in Wales than in any part of Europe, to protect the invaders and friendly to the invaders locals, from the continuing and never abating onslaught by the Welsh.

And why the Normans and Romans built castles all over England as well. The main reason why subjugation was difficult in Wales and Scotland is purely down to the landscape. England is relatively flat and easy to control, Wales and Scotland have many places where would be rebels can hide and raid from.

In fact, some of the largest rebellions against both Roman and Norman rule came from the English themselves, but to coin a phrase "If you knew your history...."

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Maybe in the Lowlands of England, but if you know anything about the Picts and also the Welsh heritage you would not say this. Much Intermingling has taken place, and yes the Brittain of real is based on the CELTIC descendants who did come to Britain and continued to from about 30,000 BCE or before.

Who include the English as well. This is what irks me. "Celtic" nations claims to ascentral rights and how they have a "magical and long culture", but the "English" are the same people as the rest of you, but for some reason they get looked down upon as some sort of inferior stock to the rest of you "Celtics".

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Brittainy in France is of similar heritage and where many of my anscestors would have come from, however as I only mentioned the Norman and Roman invasions I didn't think we were going that far back!
We can go even further I am sure and find roots in Africa along the Rift Valley, even with the Normans and Romans lol.

I guess if you "knew your history", you'd know Brittany was settled by Britons after the collapse of the Western Empire who were fleeing in the face of Anglo-Saxon onslaught......

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
There are only 3 million people in Wales, the Population of the UK is around 60 Million most who live in England.... do the Math yes many might find their cultural and genetic mix about 80% but that is the mongrels in the english regions, the blood of many Welsh people especially away from the coastal regions is much differant, and not soo mixed by invading armies.

And there it is, the English are "mongrels". I am pretty certain that you would be up in arms if such a "mongrel" turned round and called you all inbred hill-billy sheep lovers, wouldn't you? What's with the whole superiority thing?

Besides, the vast majority of the poulation of Wales does live in the cities and on the coast, so I would guess that a high proportion of your "pure bred" welsh are "mongrels" too?

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
This is one of the parts of the original Britain that had the Druidic Culture, and were truly Celt.

Its a pity your dad chose to move away and in one generation later you are proud to be English, which is just a mix match of Norman invaders, the Vandals, Romans and such like when you should be proud to be an Briton!

Vandals? There I was thinking they went from Italy to Spain after the sacking of Rome....

Again, as stated, the Normans (read Vikings) only replaced the nobility. Same with the Anglo-Saxons, for the most part. The common man is the same as the common man from Wales or Cornwall.

As for my Dad, he joined the Army, so had little choice. I am proud to be Cornish, but I am also a proud Englishman. I am also aware that being a "proud Celt" and looking down on the English as "mongrels" is flying in the face of established fact about the truth of the development of Britain and it's people. We are all the same, there is no need for this Celtic facism.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Look at my external text above, here is some more, that may have been taught to you inschool lol, but that does not make it true. My Own Great Grandmother was a 100% Welsh Speaker. Parliment in England even that recently as well as sending troops to Newport for the Charterist Uprising and killing men in the Market in front of children and wives, also did the following, they sent English speakers to all of Wales. My Great gran told me stories of how things changed soo quickly, she was beaten by the new teacher whenever conversing with friends in the class in Welsh. If any of the children of that generation spoke Welsh, their native tongue to another child they were Beaten. That was parlimentary policy for welsh schools!!!!

Be careful Stu mason you are touching some Raw nerves here OK!!

Why do you think I would condone that? I don't mind people being proud of their heritage, but at the expence of the truth and putting down another group of people, you're on a slippy slope. The heritage of the British Isles is a shared one, not one unique to those lucky enough to have lived in mountainous area's away from the invading bastards from the continent.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Not true Im afraid Stumason Wales never totally fell either:

He not only conquered most of Wales but pushed farther north into Caledonia (Scotland) than any Roman had ever been.

Roman success was short-lived, however. Heavy military defeats on the Danube forced the Romans to withdraw part of their army from Britain in 87 or 88, and as a result most forts beyond the Cheviots were abandoned

Roman Britain

Youre own quote says he "conquered Wales". Only the Germanic tribes a world away managed to get them to pull out. In essence though, Wales fell the same as the rest of us. The forts were abandoned to free up troops, but settlements remained.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf

History suggests it took Rome 30 years to conquer most of the Wales, then it took two thirds of the Roman army just to keep peace in Wales.

3
Note the MOST, which is being glossed over again by an englishwriter? I could then say by the same token as the invasions into Scotland that Scotland Fell???

2/3rds of the Roman Army? I'm calling bollocks on that one! Do you have any idea of the size of the Roman Army? Depending on the date, you could be talking between 30 or 70 Legions! You seriously want me to believe that the Romans stationed 2/3rds of their ENTIRE army in Wales?

C'mon.....

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
BTW for all interested if you look at this topic anyone you will find it took just 4 yrs to totally Subdue the English Lowlands, with the exception of the Celts in Cornwall who refused and became famous with the female warrior Boudecia.

That's crud too. The Romans came first in 55BC and left only managing to get some tribute out the Britons as they couldn't handle an occupation. Several attempts were made over the next hundred years to subdue the population, which culminated with a full invasion in 43AD. You also have to take into account internal British politics which meant some tribes were happy to cross others.

As for Boudica, she was actually from Anglia! Stop making stuff up!

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
He spoke Welsh therefore was from a welsh family/tribe and was probably West Wales and not strathclyde!

Addressed above. You seem to be willingly blind to how the languages and cultures have evolved and are essentially a revisionist.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Semantics totally, it is like saying a Native American Indian is talking rubbish about his anscestors before America was named... trash... read some truth not propoganda,

We didnt even exist until the 8th or 9th Century?

That is an outright lie and shows your Racial hatred of the Welsh Culture and people. I find it deeply upsetting and very very indicative of your ability to look at these facts properly and debate it.

Welsh and therefore the culture that speaks it, is probably besides the Aboriginals of Australia the OLDEST surviving spoken languahe in the entire World!

Think what you like, but the fact remains that Welsh as a language didn't appear until the 8th-9th century. Prior to that, there was a mish mash of Brythionic languages all over Briton. Same as "English" didn't appear as a language until sometime around the 12th-13th century. It's not "hatred", it's the truth. Go look it up...

Originally posted by MischeviousElf

The Welsh language is one of the oldest still living languages in the world.

6

No, it is probably in the same language group as one of the oldest "known", but welsh as a spoken langauge appeard in the latter part of the 1st Millenium. I'm not anti-welsh, as you attest, but I do know my history. If you're going to be proud about your heritage, then learn what really happened, not what some pro-Welsh nonsense on the web.

You completely misunderstand my position, what Im am trying to show you is that we are all the same people, so it serves no purpose going round and claiming that such and such was Welsh or the Welsh resisted Roman might. We all did! We are all the same people, the people of Briton! The only reason why the Welsh, Cornish and Scots managed to hang onto a sliver of the orignal British culture is purely down to geography, not because you're all "special" and us "English" are nongrel half-wits.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


I see where you coming from now. Your one of these rabid "English are bastards" types you get in Wales. You say don't support the racism, but then vent bile against the English! What a hypocrite.

Fact remains that the Welsh, the English, the Scots, the Cornish and the Irish are all related tribes going back thousands of years. We were all little tribes bashing each other over the heads for thousands of years until the Romans showed up. Once the Romans conquered us, there evoled a Roman-British culture all over what is now England and Wales.

The Anglo Saxons pushed back the influence of this culture with their invasions, but the people remained the same. The "Welsh" and "Cornish" only avoided this fate because geography was on their side. Some fled to Brittany.

It really is quite simple and I don't know why you don't get it and insist on banging on about the "mongrel" English and the "pure blood Welsh" when we were, prior to Anglo-Saxon invasion, a single people.

I think, considering what you have said, it is you that is guilty of the racism, not me.

EDIT: Oh, England does have more castles than Wales. I counted.

[edit on 24/1/09 by stumason]

reply to post by stumason


I enjoy debating this with you Stumason, but I know you are misguided in some of your beliefs, however we are derailing this thread from its purpose, and a Good find it was, and I feel I added something of interest on the OP which to be honest you dont seem to have done soo far.

I will add more here soon on the OP, and maybe yourself or my self could open a Britain Thread history and such like, would be interesting, hey even a challenge match if your up for it, so I wont follow my intent the moment to add another large post on our conversation, and you have me wanting to use those swear words that were brought to Wales from England by your invaders, as our traditional tongue contained no such profanities!

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Indeed, it is a good debate and it is nice to see someone else so intrigued about our history. I too feel you are somewhat misguided although I think with some extra thrashing we could be singing from the same hymn sheet, which you Welsh are very good at I might say!

I think the crux of our disagreement rests on whether you see the "Welsh" as homogynous and seperate to the "English", which may be in part to a historical Welsh view of the English as being the invaders, so you have a desire to be seen as distinct from us. My personal view is that the common man is the same and it is our leaders that have poisoned the tribes of Brittania against each other, we are one people

Anyhoo, I shall let this rest too as to avoid further derailing. If you like, I could start a thread on the people of Britain where we can further enjoy this debate?

Alas this perfectly represents the problem with humanity. A dissemination of knowledge regarding spiritual archetypes devolving into egoistic exchange. Regardless of whom is right or wrong, this is why the human civilization must undergo the culling process yet again.

reply to post by PaulKCA


yeah i wish i could bang their heads together!

The two of you are both being small minded racist egotists -i'm both English and Welsh and i wish i could agree with you both, however you've both been blinded by nationalism to only hear what you want to - the nonsense of who made bridges and who lasted against the romans longer -it doesn't even matter! not even a little bit.

I'm sick an tired of hearing about pure welsh blood, English national pride and all that nonsense -we're a little island and we can only judge ourselves on who we are today, i for one want to be part of an open and honest world which history isn't used as a weapon, birth place doesn't dictate what sort of person you are.

Oh and all this talk of the 'Celts' is pure nonsense, thats a total misrepresentation of the structure of the british isles - this isn't about two empires fighting it out. thats just how they wanted you to think the world worked during Empire.

Sorry chaps

I agree, we better of as a United Kingdom, not being divided by whatever powers that be to fight amongst each other.

reply to post by NatureBoy


I agree in a way which Is why I suggested we stop derailing the thread,

However as this site is Deny Ignorance, and much of the truth about the Welsh past has been spun by the english re writting of history, and as some posters not from the Isles were soo interested in the Welsh history, legends, Archeology and landscape I just reacted to Stu Masons Post.

I am not at all against England English or anything similar, but very much against the centralised control of London and what has been done around the world in its name, Slavery, Partition and Genocide have been carried out by Britain and we shouldnt forget it, to include cultural Genocide in Wales. I was only distancing Wales proper from that as I feel it is a fact many from outside the Isles dont realise, that England is not Wales as well, we are distinct cultures, with different histories.

I will not be subjegated from my passion and respect of the Welsh history and it's truth.

To surmise in the lines of John Cleese and to try and end this on a humorous point when speaking to the Germans,


You started it me to stumason


No I never
Stumason


Yes you did you invaded us Elf.
Stumason invades poland

In truth if you look at the flow of posts, I added just history and a bloody very good outline of the Literary facts on the OP, with some truthful Welsh History & anecdotes peppered in to give a flavor of the history here, to many outside who dont know these facts. I may have been quite tongue in cheek and proud of my Heritage, but it was on Topic and not aimed at an Welsh English situation, Stumason then jumped on the few welsh Posters who had voiced be proud at this being In Wales and some of the posters appreciation for our Culture, History, Fables, and Environment. Discussion closed I am sure until Me and Stu have a debate on this.

Back on Topic I will Add more on the Arthurian Info and further examples of the underworld and Welsh archeology over the weekend, like my first post, but being a little more discriminating in any mention of the English situation.

Kind Regards,

Elf