flase prophet is a cloned humanbeen

I think it comes down to the soul factor.
No one knows where or what the soul comes from, so no one knows if a clone would or would not have a soul.
No matter how many photo copies you create, they are still not the original and when you start photocopying copies, degredation takes place.

Originally posted by Nemo001
reply to post by ZoneX

 

Would he share the soul of the donor? How could something not created by God have a soul?

Are you saying that people created via artificial Insemination does not have a Soul..?

Originally posted by Nemo001
Would a cloned person have a soul? If not you would have the perfect Antichrist.

From what I have researched and read about thats the problem with clones. They can make the tissue, create the person. However the energy that is contained within us all can not be created and contained!
The can only create shells of people and animals. They do not hold the same energy as pure born humans and creatures do.

From what I know we are merely containers for this energy. Our bodies are just vessles for this energy that is released upon death.

And science can not create this at this point in time. From what I hear we can do pretty much everything else. However we do not have the knowledge of what that energy is or where it comes from.

This goes far beyond science or religion IMO.

Originally posted by zysin5

Originally posted by Nemo001
Would a cloned person have a soul? If not you would have the perfect Antichrist.

However the energy that is contained within us all can not be created and contained!
The can only create shells of people and animals. They do not hold the same energy as pure born humans and creatures do.

From what I know we are merely containers for this energy. Our bodies are just vessles for this energy that is released upon death.

And science can not create this at this point in time. From what I hear we can do pretty much everything else. However we do not have the knowledge of what that energy is or where it comes from.

This goes far beyond science or religion IMO.

Ofcourse they would have the "Energy". The "Energy" talked about here, is part of everything living, as the living body contains and is run by eletricity, thus, containing the "power" that is also refered to as a "Soul".

All this "not having the Energy"-talk is just New Age-fluff without any logical basis. As usual.

Originally posted by Nightchild

Originally posted by Nemo001
reply to post by ZoneX

 

Would he share the soul of the donor? How could something not created by God have a soul?

Are you saying that people created via artificial Insemination does not have a Soul..?

artificial Insemination has an egg and a sperm, all the ingreients, a clone has a few cells and an empty egg shell.
the soul may be the product of both egg and sperm, you need flour and water to make bread, take away one ingredient and you no longer have bread.
and substitutes never give the same effect.

Originally posted by munkey66

Originally posted by Nightchild

Originally posted by Nemo001
reply to post by ZoneX

 

Would he share the soul of the donor? How could something not created by God have a soul?

Are you saying that people created via artificial Insemination does not have a Soul..?

artificial Insemination has an egg and a sperm, all the ingreients, a clone has a few cells and an empty egg shell.
the soul may be the product of both egg and sperm, you need flour and water to make bread, take away one ingredient and you no longer have bread.
and substitutes never give the same effect.

Indeed, but it is not created in the womb, and the sperm and eggcell is sellected and cultivated by the scientists- not by "nature.

The clone is also made by genetic material allready existing, just like the test-tube-kid, -not artificial material.

Originally posted by Wethesheeple
reply to post by ebnmaryam

 

Could you be talking about that clown "lord Maitreya" or whatever his name is? I've never heard anything about him being a clone but lots on him being a false prophet. Also I think Maitreya translate into love..

I thought he was talking about Obama.

Originally posted by Nightchild
All this "not having the Energy"-talk is just New Age-fluff without any logical basis. As usual.

I didn't notice you adding anything else other than your thoughts aswell.
So before you toss out new age fluff.. I suggest you take a step back and understand science nor religion has all the answers to what and who we are. Nor do they understand the energy within us living beings.

And if you have this knowledge.. I suggest you go to someone with this New find.. As you will win some kind of award for understanding something no one else understands.
As trust me.. You can link anything you want.. Someone else can come in and counter it.. Becasue no one really knows what we are made up of from within.
Hence is why they can not contain that unknown energy.
And its different than the current that runs threw us as you explained.
2 different energies..
But its all new age Fluff to you so why bother? right?

reply to post by ZoneX


Wouldn't not having a soul be easier for him to be indwelled by Satan? There would then be no spiritual conflict to stop him from taking over?

Originally posted by zysin5

Originally posted by Nightchild
All this "not having the Energy"-talk is just New Age-fluff without any logical basis. As usual.

I didn't notice you adding anything else other than your thoughts aswell.
So before you toss out new age fluff.. I suggest you take a step back and understand science nor religion has all the answers to what and who we are. Nor do they understand the energy within us living beings.

And if you have this knowledge.. I suggest you go to someone with this New find.. As you will win some kind of award for understanding something no one else understands.
As trust me.. You can link anything you want.. Someone else can come in and counter it.. Becasue no one really knows what we are made up of from within.
Hence is why they can not contain that unknown energy.
And its different than the current that runs threw us as you explained.
2 different energies..
But its all new age Fluff to you so why bother? right?

So: you are saying that: Living bodies do not contain any electricity, and therefor, no Energy? That's odd, as even individuals in Coma possesses this energy, as it is necassery to keep the heart beating and the organs funcyioning. But maybe you know some way that a living being can keep the organs and body functioning WITHOUT this eletricity needed?

And : If no one knows what a Human Being is made up with, then how can you talk so certain about this "Energy"? Or do you know something that not even Science do, about this Lifeforce?

As I sad; New Age-fluff.^^ I do believe in a Soul, but I don't believe that this Soul is something that only naturally breeded beings possess. Not any least as I remember this kind of discussions from when the Test-tube-technique was new. And sure enough, Test tube-persons indeed have what people call "Souls".^^

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Nightchild]

Originally posted by Nightchild

Indeed, but it is not created in the womb, and the sperm and eggcell is sellected and cultivated by the scientists- not by "nature.

The clone is also made by genetic material allready existing, just like the test-tube-kid, -not artificial material.

But it is still an egg and a sperm, using the bread analogy again, it doesn't matter what flour as long as you have the proper ingredients, they can be prepared outside or inside, but they still need an oven to cook.

A clone can be made from harvested cells and an empty egg shell, not all the ingredients are there, it's trying to substitute flour for the wheat plant instead and make the same bread.

Originally posted by munkey66

Originally posted by Nightchild

Indeed, but it is not created in the womb, and the sperm and eggcell is sellected and cultivated by the scientists- not by "nature.

The clone is also made by genetic material allready existing, just like the test-tube-kid, -not artificial material.

But it is still an egg and a sperm, using the bread analogy again, it doesn't matter what flour as long as you have the proper ingredients, they can be prepared outside or inside, but they still need an oven to cook.

A clone can be made from harvested cells and an empty egg shell, not all the ingredients are there, it's trying to substitute flour for the wheat plant instead and make the same bread.

Ofcourse all ingredients needed are there; they merely are switched and replaced by the exact same genetic information but from a single individual instead of two.

And about the missing "oven".. Well, there is nothing that says that a Clone wouldn't be grown in a womb. And even if it wasn't, that is absolutely no reason why it would be a cause for the Clone to lack a Soul, as babies "made" by Artificiall Insemination are put in Incubators all the time.

reply to post by Nightchild


one more time, this time I will type slow.

Artificial insemination takes an Egg and a sperm
the sperm is helped into the egg and the egg becomes fertile, it is then placed in a womb to develope into a baby.

Cloning takes one egg and sucks out the content and throws it away, you now have an empty egg shell.
They then take cells and place them in the shell.
They do not use sperm, they may just use stem cells.
the egg then replicates what a normal egg would then do, only this time you are using completely different ingredients to make the same thing.

The empty egg shell does not have an egg yolk or albumin, it is just a shell.

The clone would still be placed in a womb and have a natural birth.
but it is done in a completely non natural way, not even close to what nature does, at least AI tries to impersonate what happens in nature.

reply to post by munkey66


I know the procedure quite well, thanks anyway.^^ I still don't see it as a evidence that the Clone would lack a Soul. It may, or it may not. In any case, it would surely still have feelings, and it is only a matter of time before Clones one day will be a part of the future Society, just as the Test Tube-kids eventually were.
I guess that the question will get its answer, the day Clones will start demonstrating with big signs saying "We are people too!".

From my limited education with understanding some of these people, I think it's safe to assume they may have the ability to clone someone and enhance their DNA or as a hybrid and even copy and implant these memories and personality into it also. The possibility of acelerating the growth rates may also be one of many of their abilites.

A person's soul or life energy without memories may be possibly be rewritten. For all we know, these souls, energies or entities may have previously been an animal. Others have also suggested some type of soul harvesting etc.

There's so much most of us still don't know about. If we can imagine it, chances are, they've already tried and have possibly done and perfected it. I think we could also add other bizarre genetic manipulations with other DNA such as was suggested in the movie The Island of Dr. Moreau.

As for cloning Mr Bean

Originally posted by Nemo001
reply to post by ZoneX

 

Would he share the soul of the donor? How could something not created by God have a soul?

This is one that is going to have to be decided upon on a personal level.

I believe that every thing is made by God.

If I take a twig from a fruit tree and graft it onto a completely different kind of fruit tree and it produces fruit, would that fruit have been made by me or by God?

If you take the egg from a woman and the sperm of a man, place them in a Petri dish and create an embryo, did I make a life or did God?

I see it as only utilizing material that was God made in a way he did not originally plan or did he?

I think a better question is would God create a human being without a soul?

reply to post by Nightchild


By all means NO! That person may be conceived in an unconventional way, but they would still have souls coming from two other beings that have souls.

you can only graft a twig from a similar fruit tree in order to grow the fruit, you cannot graft an olive on an apple tree.

I think there is a little confussion about Artificial Insemination and cloning, they are completely different topics with completely different processes.

Farmers have been doing artificial insemination for years, a tube full of bull semen placed in a cows reproductive tract, they just replace the Bull.

Test tube babies or In vitro fertilisation is completely different from cloning and Artificial Insemination.
A sperm is introduced to an egg outside the human body, once the egg is fertilized it is placed into the womb.

Cloning is not using sperm or the content of the egg, that is why there is such an ethical problem with it.
The argument of the clone having a soul is an ethical and or spiritual question, my question is, does 1 stem cell have a soul?
skin can be grown in a perti dish, does that have a soul?

so when you place a stem cell in an empty shell, does it have a soul?
we are not talking sperm or egg here, we are talking 1 stem cell and one egg shell.
So now you have a baby now growing from a stem cell and an egg shell,
How could something created by man in a lab have a soul?

Could the soul be in the egg or in the sperm?
if tha this the case, no soul could be present in the creation because the ingredients for the soul was removed.

reply to post by munkey66

Cloning is not using sperm or the content of the egg, that is why there is such an ethical problem with it. The argument of the clone having a soul is an ethical and or spiritual question, my question is, does 1 stem cell have a soul? skin can be grown in a perti dish, does that have a soul?

What I was trying to say, in a very nonscientific and clumsy way, is that if you start out with ingredients that are made by God then it would seem to me the product would be of God. Now as far as does one stem cell have a soul? I don't know but one stem cell alone does not make a human being either. Now I guess the dicey part is if the end product does become a human being and all the ingredients are God made would it not be a God made being constructed by man? Whether or not this being would have a soul would have to be answered with my question; would God create a being without a soul?

reply to post by NightSkyeB4Dawn


Satan was a product of God

The question isn't, would God allow a person to be born without a soul,
would he allow man that much freedom to try and be God and produce a being without a soul?