John Titor said "The Next President tries to be the next Lincoln" Is there any doubt Civil War is

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Firstly, I really have to point out; Titor didn't make any prophecies or predictions. He never said this is what will happen.

He talked about his own history, his own recollection of things... and generally speaking, he didn't care if anyone believed him or not. He even said it'd probably be better for people not to believe him.

So he wasn't warning or prophesying.

He did remind us that there would only be a 2% difference between his story and our future history. That sounds like a prediction. Very few prophecies claim to be as high as 98% accurate.

Secondly;

It's apparent to me that most of those who disbelieve in the possibility of John Titor being a Time Traveller have little to no understanding of the Multi-World Theorem and are actively demonstrating that they don't get the concept.

Yes we do. We understand just fine. We understand that if that is the true reality behind all this, then there is no reason anyone would have ever sent him back in time to "retrieve" anything because based on the very idea you are talking about, he can NEVER return, but do go on.

Let us suppose we have two bowls; One has an apple, a banana and an orange.

The Other has an apple, a banana, but no orange.

Is the existence of the bowl, the orange, or the banana DEPENDANT on there being an apple?

Extrapolate this to time; Let us say we have two timelines, and in both timelines there are events that transpire despite the situations in those realities being half different.

For example, blah blah blah......

Yeah, it actually seems you do not get it.

Look, Titor set up he rules. He explained the how, when and the why. Now people like you come along and hypothesize about how it could be real. No. Sorry. You do not get to change his rules to win his game. He already explained it and if we take his explanation as the truth, the rest of his story falls apart. If we take the rest of his story as the truth, we have to do like you and make up our own version of what he already explained for you.

To clarify: I've not said that I believe, nor have I said that I disbelieve. All I've said is that there are things in the posts that I don't understand. My lack of understanding does not make them impossible. Nor does it make them probable if I do understand.

However, the Lincoln thing, being one of the minor predictions, DID make my skin crawl when it came at me out of left field. There are several other minor notes that produce similar results for me, but niether are they any sort of evidence of veracity.

Some folks are just very astute at extrapolating current events into a probable future. Nothing magic about that, just keen observation. On the other hand, I don't reject the possibility of time travel, or alternate "worldlines". Just because I don't understand the concept of how a divergence would be quantified does not make it unquantifyable, or nonexistent. Thankfully, such things do not rely on whether or not I understand them.

nenothtu out

[edit on 22-1-2009 by nenothtu]

reply to post by nenothtu


G.W. compared himself to Lincoln too, this is not really that amazing a prophecy.

"In a small way, I can relate to the rail-splitter from out West because he had a way of speaking that was not always appreciated by the newspapers back East," Mr. Bush said to laughter before a crowd of thousands who jammed into the downtown of the Illinois capital. "A New York Times story on his first inaugural address reported that Mr. Lincoln was lucky 'it was not the constitution of the English language and the laws of English grammar that he was called upon to support.' "

With a pause, Mr. Bush added, "I think that fellow is still writing for The Times." (In fact, while the quotation is correct, the article, published March 9, 1861, appeared to be quoting a critique of Mr. Lincoln's address that was published in The National Anti-Slavery Standard.

Basically what Titor said is that something that many books have been written about happening (presidents comparing themselves to Lincoln) will happen once again.

AMAZING!!!

reply to post by Luciferdescending


Oh! I see. How silly of me.

I didn't realize that explaining quantum mechanics means I am advocating that he was a time traveller.

Thank you for pointing out how mistaken I am about the subject. Should I give you a reward or something? I'm not accustomed to such situations.

Look, just because the MWT makes it hard to refute someone who may or may not be genuine is no reason to argue that MWT is not the case, in particular when much of the new science being done tends to be supportive of the theory.

And as for Why someone would travel knowing they could not return to their original reality... I imagine some people would be less conflicted than others about returning to a nigh indistinguishably similar reality.

Or perhaps there is some way to have a resonance with the originating reality, sort of like tying a rope around your waist before jumping into a pool of water.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by Luciferdescending

 

Oh! I see. How silly of me.

I didn't realize that explaining quantum mechanics means I am advocating that he was a time traveller.

Thank you for pointing out how mistaken I am about the subject. Should I give you a reward or something? I'm not accustomed to such situations.

Look, just because the MWT makes it hard to refute someone who may or may not be genuine is no reason to argue that MWT is not the case, in particular when much of the new science being done tends to be supportive of the theory.

I am sorry, the title of the thread is "possibility of MWT?" I thought it was about John Titor, this hoaxter that claimed to be from the future. Perhaps I am reading a different thread than you. Maybe it is my world line.

And as for Why someone would travel knowing they could not return to their original reality... I imagine some people would be less conflicted than others about returning to a nigh indistinguishably similar reality.

You do not know the story do you? I could care less if someone would be willing to make the trip. The point is that he said the trip was for the purpose of retrieving something. In order to retrieve things, you need to be able to return with them. Otherwise, you are just getting lost with them.

Or perhaps there is some way to have a resonance with the originating reality, sort of like tying a rope around your waist before jumping into a pool of water.

That cancels out the logic of his story that tells us that each and every arrival creates a new world line. If the simple fact of making the trip at all is going to create a new worldline for you to traverse, there is no return trip no matter how tightly you tie that rope.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon

he didn't care if anyone believed him or not. He even said it'd probably be better for people not to believe him.

I agree, one of the first things Titor said was I don't want anyone to believe me. It begs the question then... why tell people if you do not wish to be believed? For the purposes of his own 'story', it's completely illogical.

It's a cry for attention. Instead of saying "people, you must believe me" and risk everyone calling him a schmuck, he did the opposite, the sheeple took the bait and he played them like a fiddle!

It's apparent to me that most of those who disbelieve in the possibility of John Titor being a Time Traveller have little to no understanding of the Multi-World Theorem and are actively demonstrating that they don't get the concept.

Ohh I understand the theory but I just don't agree with it. People wanted time travel but were so bummed out with the paradox that they created alternate time lines, dimensions or worlds to make it 'work'. But until proven, it's all science fiction.

BTW, black holes or singularities (which Titor relies on) are also still theory based. They have not been proven. Therefore Hawking's Radiation is still a theory. Mathematical calculation & theory do not equate to reality.

Our understanding of the universe is limited as are the flawed mathematics used to describe it. Black holes were created to literally fill the back holes in the original calculations because they don't work. The same applies to dark matter and dark energy.

What amazes me is that your presupposition is that we must not understand the science (or should I say pseudo science) if we do not believe Titor.

That's a straw man argument right there! But hey, whatever helps you sleep of a night TheColdDragon!

IRM

[edit on 22/1/09 by InfaRedMan]

reply to post by Luciferdescending


Interesting that you would infer that Titor factually stated he was unable to return to his own world when it was in fact I that asserted he had stated that. I in fact only vaguely recalling that losing his wordline occured due to distance from origin or some such. Again, vaguely recalled as it has been some years since I last read the titor conversations.

I think you know less about the story than you insinuate, and are invested in being a troll.

What other people choose to believe is none of your business, and it isn't your place to make others believe as you do.

No person is obligated to share your view of reality, and thusly your assertions that your reality is correct does not align with other posters on the topic.

I am merely putting forward conjecture based upon my understanding (Feynman would laugh) of Quantum Mechanics.

You, however, are demonstrating an apparent need for people to believe Titor is a hoax. Thusly, you are more invested than I am in this conversation.

Consider that you don't ask questions, you make assertions. You make statements or respond with sarcasm and incredulity to anyone supportive or questioning concerning Titor's story. You are not contributing to this discussion, you are detracting because you do not wish to discuss it rationally.

Ridicule, snobbery and general self-certainty are non-contributive to ANY conversation. They are a negative quality in any discussion and are thusly undesirable in a thinking persons conversation.

You have already made up your mind, so there is nothing for you here.

Originally posted by Luciferdescending
That cancels out the logic of his story that tells us that each and every arrival creates a new world line. If the simple fact of making the trip at all is going to create a new worldline for you to traverse, there is no return trip no matter how tightly you tie that rope.

Yeah, that ones always stumped me... If he was taking his IBM back to the future, it would have been a different future.

"We're sending you 'John' on a mission into the past to help someone else's future. We're still buggered but that's ok".

Another consequence on Titor's pseudo science is that he said a new 'world line' is created with each journey. That means that this 'world line' was created by John Titor in 1998! We didn't exist before then. Hmmmm

"Oh Hail Ye John!"

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


No, My assertion was that you were demonstrating that you did not understand it.

Define Quantum Braiding and the implications that this theory has upon the makeup of physical reality.

Tell me what you know of Brane Theory.

Have you heard of the Quantum Foam effect and what it may infer?

You are welcome to believe what you believe, it is ultimately your choice. However, ridicule of people putting forth thoughts or asking pertinent questions is non-productive.

As is my ridicule of the people who contribute only snarky sarcasm and trollishness to the thread. It's inappropriate and only detracts, but even I cannot resist the urge to bite back on occassion.

You yourself make the correlation that in your mind, MWT is science-fiction until it is proven. There is no proof in real science, there is only supportive data that promotes the likelihood of a theory being accurate until a better theory is found with better supportive data.

There is nothing we "KNOW" that cannot be false. We cannot eliminate the entire possibility of error, there is always a margin... and Knowledge as a statement knows no error.

Quantum Theory and MWT is a very promising field, and it explains quite a bit of the questions remaining unanswered. Naturally, this is not going to complete our answer of the universe, it will only contribute a possibly better understanding of the subject.

In my experience, people who tend to be staunchly against MWT are the same people who advocate Time Travel is impossible and feel the two statements are equal supporting argument for each other. Paradox is not a necessity in reality, it is only a necessity in one theory of the mechanics which allow reality to work... which is looking less and less likely to be an accurate representation of reality.

So, believe? Don't believe? It doesn't matter what you believe as it isn't pertinent to the conversation. If you've already made up your mind, it isn't your job to make other people's up. If you're capable of critical examination, by all means contribute that to the conversation...

reply to post by InfaRedMan


The creation of a world line does not necessitate the inability to return to your origin. It merely means that a new world line is created.

In fact, if by traveling you are not traveling directly to your own past, it isn't necessary that creating a new world line would necessitate being incapable of returning to your origin.

Or you could travel directly to your own past, change something, and return to your unchanged future.... because any realities created are not reliant upon other realities being unavailable to you.

I would imagine that distance from Origin might affect ones ability to return to Origin in the same fashion that one can get more easily lost the further one gets from familiar surroundings.

I’m going to ask some questions, if you can answer these questions for me (anyone who supports Titor still) I’ll reconsider Titor. There, my mind is not set in stone; I’m open to explanations so please give it a whirl.

If Titor was real:

Why did he not e-mail people in the year he claimed he was returning to before he returned to a slightly skewed version of his own timeline?

Why did the departure tape he said he’d make never turn up?

Why did he have three different stories about Health Care in the future? He was asked a few times about Health Care and he answered drastically differently three times.

Why should we believe Titor when he was clearly lying about the Olympics and elections, and so many other events? Why trust that anything he had to say was true? If the Olympics go on for several more decades will you ever be willing to admit that he lied? If Obama does not cause a civil war will you admit that he was a false “profit”?

People said Titor has the highest success rate of “hits” rather than misses. Please show evidence that this is true. Please post the “hits” as well. Sometimes these “hits” other people consider “hits” are not “hits” at all. The advances in China’s space program for instance were predicted and written about before Titor appeared and mentioned it.

Edit: He said our time lines were not that different, clearly they weren’t from what he stated about being in the past with his younger self. So why then are his “misses” excused because he came from another timeline? Then how can you credit his “hits”? How can you acknowledge that some of what he said was true and yet ignore that some of it was drastically wrong? Doesn’t that take away from the excuse you’ve created for the “misses”? At that point isn’t it all redundant and isn’t predicting a complete waste of time if the excuse is true?



[edit on 22-1-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by Luciferdescending

 

Interesting that you would infer that Titor factually stated he was unable to return to his own world when it was in fact I that asserted he had stated that. I in fact only vaguely recalling that losing his wordline occured due to distance from origin or some such. Again, vaguely recalled as it has been some years since I last read the titor conversations.

I inferred something factually? You are going to have to quote me because that is a new one on me. I know he stated there was a chance he could return. That is part of what I mean about his story falling apart on itself. Either each trip creates a new world line, or he can return. It has to be either/or. He clearly states both.

I think you know less about the story than you insinuate, and are invested in being a troll.

What other people choose to believe is none of your business, and it isn't your place to make others believe as you do.

Likewise, no? If you want to be part of the discussion in trying to prove that his story is true, then why do I not get the same right? If you feel the need to post anything to his favor, why do I not also have the right to enjoy posting to his ire? I believe this is an open discussion and so far you have had a problem with the fact that I was on topic whilst you wandered off and now you claim that I factually infer things while exercising the same rights as you and thus I am a troll for doing so? Wow. I am starting to see how your brain works.(?)

No person is obligated to share your view of reality, and thusly your assertions that your reality is correct does not align with other posters on the topic.

I am merely putting forward conjecture based upon my understanding (Feynman would laugh) of Quantum Mechanics.

Cool. I do not believe I ever said that you should not or could not. Did I? Quote me, please. You do quite a bit of assuming do you not?

I am merely putting forward my views on the topic at hand and responding to posts as the mood strikes me. I am keeping on topic, being civil, and merely posing a contradictory view. Is there a reason it is right for you to express yourself and wrong for me to?

Please, since you said it a few times, show me where I insisted that anyone believe as I do. Please show me where I stated that what I thought was the way everyone should think. Perhaps you could stop claiming I said or inferred things that I clearly have not. It is funny that you start off with this elitist attitude that all naysayers simply lack the grand understanding you posses and yet you seem to have misconstrued each and everything I have said so far. Before I insult you reading comprehension or understanding of things, is English your first language?

You, however, are demonstrating an apparent need for people to believe Titor is a hoax. Thusly, you are more invested than I am in this conversation.

So then you are responding to me because...?

Consider that you don't ask questions, you make assertions. You make statements or respond with sarcasm and incredulity to anyone supportive or questioning concerning Titor's story. You are not contributing to this discussion, you are detracting because you do not wish to discuss it rationally.

Insert some rational. I am more than willing to go there. In fact, if you understood me, you would see that I have been trying to be rational from the get go but you insist on insisting this hoax. The gauntlet is down then, let us just be rational about this.

reply to post by kdial1

The skeptics on the other hand believe in the single world line. That events are planned out according to that single world line and if predictions are not spot on...well you know how that goes the [HOAX] goes up.

I believe in many world lines, but I don’t believe that Titor was “real” in ours.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon


Ridicule, snobbery and general self-certainty are non-contributive to ANY conversation. They are a negative quality in any discussion and are thusly undesirable in a thinking persons conversation.

Would this be an example of what you mean -

It's apparent to me that most of those who disbelieve in the possibility of John Titor being a Time Traveller have little to no understanding of the Multi-World Theorem and are actively demonstrating that they don't get the concept.

?

Maybe it is just me but starting off by questioning the intelligence of anyone who does not share your misguided belief is not exactly endearing, positive, constructive, polite, or the opposite of any of the things you seem to say I am.

You have already made up your mind, so there is nothing for you here.

Have you not made your mind up yet? Why are you here? If you do not feel I am contributing, ignore me. You and Titorite seem to have your minds made up so I suppose there is nothing here for any of us is there.

You seem to really have a problem with the idea of open discussion. Please stop talking about people being to ignorant to get MW-THEORY and stop spending entire posts to explain how little you understand what I write. I was discussing John Titor. His name is in the title. Please refer to that and get back on topic.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
Why did he not e-mail people in the year he claimed he was returning to before he returned to a slightly skewed version of his own timeline?

No offense intended by what I'm about to say... but spoken like someone who hasn't done their due dilligence concerning the topic. From what I recall there WERE emails sent, but the people who received them did not want to talk about what was in them. Some even claimed to have trouble remembering what was in them and couldn't find them when they went back later to look. Pamela received one of these.

It was from my understanding that those who recognized that they had received strangely telling emails did not want to discuss them.

Why did the departure tape he said he’d make never turn up?

That you would have to ask Pamela. I don't know if that ever turned up, or if it was ever mentioned after the fact.

Why did he have three different stories about Health Care in the future? He was asked a few times about Health Care and he answered drastically differently three times.

Okay, you'll have to refresh my memory. I don't recall Titor ever mentioning healthcare, other than mentioning that doctors made housecalls where he was from.

Why should we believe Titor when he was clearly lying about the Olympics and elections, and so many other events? Why trust that anything he had to say was true? If the Olympics go on for several more decades will you ever be willing to admit that he lied? If Obama does not cause a civil war will you admit that he was a false “profit”?

Since you have already made your determination that he is lying, I see no reason to answer your question.

People said Titor has the highest success rate of “hits” rather than misses. Please show evidence that this is true. Please post the “hits” as well. Sometimes these “hits” other people consider “hits” are not “hits” at all. The advances in China’s space program for instance were predicted and written about before Titor appeared and mentioned it.

Others have mentioned "hits". It is fortuitous that any descriptions of the future which may have come true are lauded as coincidental and fore-known by those who pay attention... rather than actual descriptions of what is to come.

Not to say his statements were predictions.... just that it is convenient that the things people would consider to be hits aren't in the eyes of the disbeliever, they are contrivances of a well read mind.

Thusly, the possibility is excluded they can be anything else.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

The creation of a world line does not necessitate the inability to return to your origin. It merely means that a new world line is created.

In fact, if by traveling you are not traveling directly to your own past, it isn't necessary that creating a new world line would necessitate being incapable of returning to your origin.

With each and every trip a new worldline is created at the point of destination. - John Titor's own story says that. It would be fun to change the facts that do not add up but the thread is not titled "What do we need to change about Titor's story to make it bullet proof?"

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
If you're capable of critical examination, by all means contribute that to the conversation...

I am, I have and I will continue to!

IRM

Originally posted by kdial1
The skeptics on the other hand believe in the single world line. That events are planned out according to that single world line and if predictions are not spot on...well you know how that goes the [HOAX] goes up.

My two cents

-Kdial1

Sorry I missed this. Do not speak for all skeptics. Some people are simply skeptical of this particular guy and his story. I do not believe a thing that Bob Lazaar says either. That does not mean I am not open to UFOs. I just think Bob Lazaar is a liar. I believe in Bigfoot but I never bought them boys with the frozen rubber suit either. I believe in technology far beyond our understanding but not Hutchinson's anti-gravity BS. Be careful when you speak for skeptics because there are many facets with which to choose to be a skeptic.

Originally posted by Luciferdescending
You seem to really have a problem with the idea of open discussion. Please stop talking about people being to ignorant to get MW-THEORY and stop spending entire posts to explain how little you understand what I write. I was discussing John Titor. His name is in the title. Please refer to that and get back on topic.

I asserted that you both were demonstrating that neither of you understood MWT. I would still argue your understanding is lax, but it is apparent that one of you actively refers to it as science-fiction.

You have variously throughout the conversation referred to Titor as a Hoax, the hoaxer, etc. You are inferring something as if it is true and self-obviously true (A Priori). You are putting forth that this is the facts, that he is a hoax and has provably done so.

You also brought up Alas Babylon and STRONGLY insisted that Titor "Stole" his story from the book... nevermind the book is an envisioning of a dystopia, and science fiction is often an extrapolation of noticeable trends in reality.

It would be like saying that Charlemagne "STOLE" his story from the Arthur Mythos if it had been written first.

Or that Martin Luther King "STOLE" his story from Ghandi, because they used very similar methods and actions to fight governmental oppression.

In other words, it is a false correlation. Is Titor's story similar to Alas Babylon? I won't argue that it may be. Nobody I have seen has demonstrated that, factually, he "STOLE" his story from a book.

reply to post by TheColdDragon

Pamela received one of these.

I’ve actually spoken to Pam and she said she couldn’t even receive an e-mail because she did not have a computer in the 90’s. Apparently you haven’t done your homework. This is kind of, amusing.