The Conspiracy of Organized Religion.. Right in front of your face

First off, I don't wish to offend anyone reading this. I found myself feeling like a hypocrite, given my "live and let live" policy on religion, but I truly do want opinions and food for my own thought. Lets get into it...

1. Why do people allow themselves to learn about their spirituality through other people?
We are flawed. Everyone is in their own beautiful way. But even without conscious effort, we all work on agendas. We are after our own goals and will do what needs to be done to get them. There is no reason you should allow yourself to be inundated with the ideas of other flawed beings, all with their own agenda (haha there's where hypocrisy kicks in). Organized religion is based on a set of ideals fashioned by people of power. Religion can be used to control large numbers of people, because even if there aren't police around, "God's always watching." That is dangerous, and suspends our objective view of how we should evolve as people, on an individual and societal level.

Are you sure some of what you learned in church wasn't just to help you conform?

2. Some blind faith is dangerous.
I don't want to take away from your faith. To you, it is probably beautiful and life-affirming. However, what if I could PROVE that your faith was false?

I recently saw a movie called "The Man From Earth." (If you haven't seen it, find it and watch it NOW) During the movie, many of life's constructs are stripped from the people in the film, and they all either react like selfish animals, or they allow themselves to be educated. At one point, someone gives a solid story pretty much disproving the idea that Jesus was the son of God, only a man who wished to bring the teachings of Buddha to the Middle East, and story-tellers went wild. A woman completely loses her mind and shames the man for even telling such a story. Wow, that's SOME faith!

But is it good faith? Does her faith help her or hinder her from ascending to something bigger? Even if she was showed the exact events of Jesus' life, and it was everything against what she had been taught, could she believe it, or is she so maniacally obsessed with her childhood fantasy from sunday school that she has virtual blinders on to her real spirituality?

3. If it causes war, what good is it?
Holy wars? I don't know of a more oxymoronic phrase. Your religious views should make you feel love for all things. You are here for a reason, and it isn't death, it isn't bigotry, and it isn't damning all lifestyles that you don't necessarily believe in. People are all built the right way, God would have it no other way right?

I am under the impression that there are only two things that start war.. Religion and women, or rather, the selfish pride of men for their religion or women. Its all built on our flaws, again. And the people in power wave our God in front of us, and we all drop to our knees and follow him because he is following the true intentions of that God.. Right, I don't like the word sheeple, but there's really no other word for it.

4. Jesus, Buddha, Vishnu, Muhammed, etc. are all the same guy!
You are diluted if you believe that the stories aren't strikingly similar. And I've read all their respective books. It all goes back thousands of years to some astrology story of a sun God, blah blah blah. They all work under the same construct, be good people and follow your teachings. More power given to people who want to tell YOU how to worship. Praise God on your own terms, it feels great.

I don't deny those people lived. There is historical evidence that they did. And they all probably did amazing things during their times, but they are no more supernatural or ethereal than hercules. He was a guy too, a big one. He fought people instead of being their savior, but really no difference.

Its that game where you say something into someone's ear and then the next and the next and the next, except this time it is stretched over thousands of years, see what I'm saying? The message is so convoluted in the end that the guy last in line says, "Jesus/Buddha/Muhammed is our savior and the messiah!"

5. There is no God who would subject any soul to an eternity in hell.
Hell can't exist. Its not productive. Surely hell is an idea of man. There is no hate in your soul, only in your brain. Another construct people use to control you. Be good or go to hell? It is only a very simple idea made of man. The afterlife surely could not be so simple, so black and white. And the supreme being could not have any sort of wrath, there's just no logic behind it!

My Belief
True religion can only come from oneself. You must endure the trials of life, and God will give you windows of opportunity throughout those trials to see him and let him guide you.

I believe the soul is a thing. No magic to it. Someday, we will have the technology to see and manipulate the soul. It might be millions of years, but who knows, we know less that one percent of one percent of one percent about our universe. At this point we may ascend as a species and become more than flesh and blood.

Enjoy your life. Regardless of how we live it we will all have the universe as our playground when we die. To what extent you choose to live after that will dictate whether or not you choose to come back and provide balance to the person you were before.

Having said all that, I think my religion is an amalgamation of the others, with a lean towards Buddhism to some extent.

Again, I am looking for your thoughts on all this. I'm not trying to prove anything to you either way, and I respect your religion. I just wanted people to check out my viewpoints and start (hopefully) a good, thought-provoking discussion.

Interesting, I enjoy your no hell idea.

I've been chewing on the idea of there is no evil in this certain universe.

This idea hit me when I though of any "terrible situation or "crime" and thought why would they do it. Then I realized everyone does everything in some shape or another to feel better, joy.

I find we never go to the core of why people do these "evil" things and really there is alot of hurt inside( or stupidity) and they act in revenge or what have you, hoping to feel better or at peace.

I currently feel that there is the Mis-use of Love And of coarse love.

The idea of Evil is perfect for keeping people within religion. I hear it alot when I say "well what if your wrong" and I get the reply " well it's better safe then sorry" ( This is after I ask the classis questions). They are trapped in a religion mainly because of the fear of punishment or hell if they leave.


Anyways, the theory I have can change in a heartbeat, anything is possible.

[edit on 19-1-2009 by LaHaver]

Originally posted by SantaClaus
1. Why do people allow themselves to learn about their spirituality through other people?
We are flawed. Everyone is in their own beautiful way. But even without conscious effort, we all work on agendas. We are after our own goals and will do what needs to be done to get them.

wouldnt the same be true of yourself? if your spirituality consisted solely of what you have discovered, what is ¨good¨ for you, isnt it possible that you are going to be lead by a self serving agenda?

2. Some blind faith is dangerous.
I don't want to take away from your faith. To you, it is probably beautiful and life-affirming. However, what if I could PROVE that your faith was false?

first, blind faith is not encouraged by the bible. infact jesus told us to seek truth.

second, you cant prove my faith is false. you may try but it wont work.

you might be able to throw around theories about how jesus is some ordinary guy who dabbled in eastern teachings, but its not proof.

Even if she was showed the exact events of Jesus' life, and it was everything against what she had been taught, could she believe it, or is she so maniacally obsessed with her childhood fantasy from sunday school that she has virtual blinders on to her real spirituality?

no offense, but what makes you any different from the ¨controlling¨ evil church. really. who are you to say her faith blinds her from ¨real spirituality¨?

better yet, who are you to say what ¨real spirituality¨ is?

i dont mean that in a nasty way but its like you are saying that everyone should decide for themselves what spirituality is provided it has nothing to do with the bible.

3. If it causes war, what good is it?
Holy wars? I don't know of a more oxymoronic phrase. Your religious views should make you feel love for all things.

again, it raises the question, who are you to be determining what spirituality should or shouldnt make you feel?

friend of mine has his spirituality summed up in a tab of acid. it doesnt make him a nicer person. infact he´s nasty when he trips. but are you going to tell him he´s wrong? because he´ll argue with you.

really if your idea of spirituality is true, then it shouldnt matter to you if a person decides to be christian, muslim, atheist, or even a satan worshiper. it shouldnt matter to you.

I am under the impression that there are only two things that start war.. Religion and women, or rather, the selfish pride of men for their religion or women.

lol, ive never heard it summed up like that before

4. Jesus, Buddha, Vishnu, Muhammed, etc. are all the same guy!
You are diluted if you believe that the stories aren't strikingly similar.

similarities ≠ proof.

WWI and WWII had lots of similarities. it doesnt mean they are the same war.

Its that game where you say something into someone's ear and then the next and the next and the next, except this time it is stretched over thousands of years, see what I'm saying? The message is so convoluted in the end that the guy last in line says, "Jesus/Buddha/Muhammed is our savior and the messiah!"

except we have transcripts hundreds of years apart with little or no change. so its not quite the same

5. There is no God who would subject any soul to an eternity in hell.
Hell can't exist. Its not productive. Surely hell is an idea of man.

you agree with the bible on this. (eccl 9:5,10)

Enjoy your life. Regardless of how we live it we will all have the universe as our playground when we die. To what extent you choose to live after that will dictate whether or not you choose to come back and provide balance to the person you were before.

thats a very nice, politically correct view on things. however its not working. everyone does what they can to ¨enjoy life¨. some are more extreme than others, however there is some very REAL suffering on account of the fact that some are ¨enjoying¨ their life alittle too much. most of the world is suffering.

its a nice philosophy, but its not new. humankind has been doing that since the beginning

edited because yeah, whatever. i shouldnt have posted it

[edit on 19-1-2009 by miriam0566]

Originally posted by LaHaver

Anyways, the theory I have can change in a heartbeat, anything is possible.

[edit on 19-1-2009 by LaHaver]

That's a good way to be. If you choose to not define your God, then he can help you evolve in changing times. People need a big security blanket to feel normal, and that's not healthy. Go out into the beyond, and see things you never knew existed.

reply to post by miriam0566


Miriam, I respect your faith. I am not trying to tell you how to be, and I do have my own agenda, it is to evoke a response. And if someone reads part of that and finds some sort of idea they like, then I am happy.

I certainly am not the be-all-end-all in my mind. I am not close to finding out all there is out there, and I never will in this life.

You are basing most of your argument on the fact that I cannot provide evidence or proof of anything.. But what of you? I may be ignorant to many things in the world, but at least I am deducing to some degree.

Do you have any personal experience that tells you that you are correct? I do, in my mind. Do you think that if all memory and literature telling of Jesus was suddenly gone today, that he would show up again?

My God is always there. And he would show up again even if I got hit on the head and started a new life tomorrow with no memory. He would come back for me, and even if every other person on earth was gone, he would redefine himself without help from others.

What is the point in such detail? I only wish that instead of just telling me I am not necessarily right that you give me some logical argument to that effect.

And to add, I am no person to be telling people how things are, I am only working with what I have to help myself and others start thinking.

[edit on 1/19/09 by SantaClaus]

Originally posted by SantaClaus
You are basing most of your argument on the fact that I cannot provide evidence or proof of anything.. But what of you? I may be ignorant to many things in the world, but at least I am deducing to some degree.

i didnt realize i wasnt.

Do you have any personal experience that tells you that you are correct?

conclusions ive reached from my own personal search.

alot of people say that the bible is a work of man and that god had nothing to do with it. i cant see that as the case.

it was written over a period of 1600 years by about 40 different people from all walks of life. from fisherman to kings to lawyers to farmers. yet it still has harmony. if thats not inspired by god, then thats impossible.

i find it impossible that moses would guess correctly how the earth was formed and when animals appear (read genesis from the pov of a person standing on the surface and you´ll find it agrees to an alarming degree with scientific beliefs.)

if the bible is not from god, then the prophecy would be inaccurate. yet there are examples no of vague predictions, but very specific, that came true. even jesus´ description of today is uncanny.

i believe the scriptures to be inspired. therefore, its fitting to at least read and see what it says.

And to add, I am no person to be telling people how things are, I am only working with what I have to help myself and others start thinking.

i understand that. but you have to remember what you are saying.

its like giving a freedom of speech but then not liking how people use it.

you saying that people should choose or discover their faith, yet you assume that people who choose the bible are sheeple. its not really true.

reply to post by miriam0566


I know what you mean, there are things that happen in this world that are utterly distusting and horrible for the observer. I'm just looking beyond ones judgement and into the one doing the damage and what there motive is. Something evil to one person isn't always evil to the another.

Say burning the bible is evil to some religious people, but to some, it's just a book.

I'm pondering, if someone were truly evil, they would do everything to feel hate or an oposite of love. So they would cause pain and loss to others but wouldn't he laugh and enjoy doing it.....keyword "enjoy"


It's all interesting to me, and to swing back to the OP I agree 100%, if everything is ever changing it makes no sence to stay in the pasts idologies. I once heard an interesting concept of "another race somewhere out there" wether its true or not they "claim" to be immergent. Always on the cutting edge, Adapting there new findings to advance there education and way of life.

I find we have somewhat stalled in terms of a whole race, information and technology supress, where greed and profit corrupt ones good intentions.

Originally posted by LaHaver
I'm pondering, if someone were truly evil, they would do everything to feel hate or an oposite of love. So they would cause pain and loss to others but wouldn't he laugh and enjoy doing it.....keyword "enjoy"

just because they enjoy it doesnt make it less evil. you could be laughing while you beat up someone, does that really mean that your not doing something evil?

i dont understand what your saying

Originally posted by miriam0566
you saying that people should choose or discover their faith, yet you assume that people who choose the bible are sheeple. its not really true.

Very good point, can't argue that. I am one who just can't believe that the act of learning religion from other people can bring you to full discovery. So at that, we are at a bit of a standstill.

You make very valid arguments.

ETA, I realize your belief in the bible, I was speaking more about the people of the church who teach you about it. I think you must agree that some if not most skew the lines to make them fit their lifestyle.

If the bible is inspired then why not the preachers who speak? I know a few preachers who would go at each others necks in religious arguments, so there is no harmony there.

[edit on 1/19/09 by SantaClaus]

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I am one who just can't believe that the act of learning religion from other people can bring you to full discovery.

if you assume that people are not wise, then no, it wouldnt make sense.

i agree with you. certain religions would appear to have forgotten what they are supposed to be doing. im not a fan of the church.

however, humankind as rarely moved forward without cooperation, or sharing of insights.

i mean you have to admit. some of jesus´ teachings are pretty amazing. if we took his advice on alot of things, this world would be a better place. so is it any surprise that he told his disciples to preach?

i was debating with a friend the other day about war. and i pointed out to him that jesus taught to turn the other cheek. simple teaching really. yet if everyone in the world followed this one teaching, this ¨blip¨ in the gospels, not only would war not longer exist. but violence wouldnt exist either.

there is no reason that people couldnt take that to improve their lives

Originally posted by SantaClaus
If the bible is inspired then why not the preachers who speak?

very very good question.

jesus used the parable of the wheat field to prophecy what would happen after his death. he said satan would sow weeds.

i realize im touching on certain beliefs that we may not be in argeement on. however lets assume satan is real and is trying to work against god. would it make sense that he would try to twist and distort god´s word?

mind you, im not defending the church. im just saying

I believe in that there is something out there, but I just dont know what it is ... I think that thinking in all the possibilities is great .. but I just cannot stand all these people that believe in some books and forget about everything else ...

if there were no religion, the world would be a better place, everyone needs to find his own belief ... thats what I think ... because we just dont know what is out there ...

I think its easy to live thinking that if you do everything that a person or a text says its right you will be in peace when you die ... I just cannot say that this is not going to happen, because we really dont know, but we cant stand for these religion that allow disrespect with another beeing for not thinking the same ... thats just sick ...

thats why I am against all kind of religion bull#...these things were made to let you live in a brain cave ... think for once and make your own belief

[edit on 19-1-2009 by Faiol]

Does anyone see as a church expands that more evil will inundate its practice?

Like the Catholic Church. The Vatican has done some rather suspect things over the years, and the practitioners have done downright horrible things. Does this not demean the people who are part of the faith? Is it not apparent that without this organization, none of the evil was possible?

I see terrifying strength in numbers, and people are easily manipulated.

I agree that organized religion is a conspiracy, not just against man but also against the creator of all things. I once wrote an article and I hope it will fit here, lets see:

Confessions of a Spiritual Anarchist.

So yes, I agree that religion will have to be dealt with.

Just how we're going to do that is still a mystery though.



[edit on 20-1-2009 by mrwupy]

1. Why do people allow themselves to learn about their spirituality through other people?

They do, thus Jesus, Buddhas, Vishnu, Muhammed, etc.

2. Some blind faith is dangerous.

sports,cars, walking, fast food are dangerous too

3. If it causes war, what good is it?

Money causes war also. There has not been a real holy war for a while now. Even the crusades while often blamed soley on religion had more to do with taking control of trade routes. We are fighting in iraq for political reasons the islamics are the only ones who think it has to do with religion.

4. Jesus, Buddha, Vishnu, Muhammed, etc. are all the same guy!

No they are not. You watched zeitgiest and thought it was fac. Jeses was said to have existed around the year zero. Muhammed came later and was very much like a middle eastern Joseph smith and wrote about Jesus and said he would return. What books did you read? You said you read them all ,right? If you read anything about Buddah you would know its not a name it is a title for reaching enlightenment and there have been over 20 of them? So which ones were all the same guy? And Buddah never told anyone how to worship, worship is not even part of easter religion.

5. There is no God who would subject any soul to an eternity in hell.

I do not believe in hell but that really depends on what god you are talking about.

My belief
People should do real resarch before talking about religion. Instead the usualy just watch a one sided documentary on the subject and start repeating all over the net.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I am under the impression that there are only two things that start war.. Religion and women, or rather, the selfish pride of men for their religion or women. Its all built on our flaws, again. And the people in power wave our God in front of us, and we all drop to our knees and follow him because he is following the true intentions of that God.. Right, I don't like the word sheeple, but there's really no other word for it.

A ha ha ha .

Only Islam know for holy war (jihad)!

Read Orwell's "1984" where he very well explained reasons of war.

I saw Zeitgeist, not a bad documentary, but it had a ton of factual errors.

You either misread the post or are ignoring part of it. I specifically said I wasn't denying the existence of the people, only their religious affiliation with God. I'm sure all those people did a lot of good for the world when the world needed it, and their story became so grandiose, that they were given supernatural powers through writers.

reply to post by SantaClaus


1. Why do people allow themselves to learn about their spirituality through other people?

This begs the question: How do we learn anything at all, if not drawing on the experience and wisdom of others? If you desired to build a house would you be confident in your own untrained abilities? What you seek is much more important than building a house and yet you seem to think that a lone person could somehow pull the Truth out of the air with the force of their own will. Even though you claim we are all “flawed,” you somehow deify your own imagination concerning spirituality. This is a great deception as it makes Truth relative, subject to each person’s mental concoctions. This is not spirituality at all, it’s pride taken to its deceptive and logical conclusion: you’re worshiping your own machinations as if their pronouncements are divine.

reply to post by SantaClaus


2. Some blind faith is dangerous.

Please clarify this. I don’t know what you mean by “Some” blind faith, can you be specific? By “blind faith” do you mean un-evidenced or unreasonable? If that’s the case please tell me, and I assume your speaking about traditional Christianity, what about my faith is blind and dangerous? Because it’s my understanding that the Gospels are literarily reliable documents describing eye witness accounts of events in history. Now you may disagree what the accounts bear witness to but to say our faith is blind or based on nothing is just plain incorrect. Is Jesus the Son of God or just a regular guy preaching about Bhudda? Well I put trust in the ancient accounts of people who were there, men who doubted and came to believe and put pen to papyrus. Is this blind faith? And the notion that if the Truth conflicted with traditional Christianity we’d ignore it, cover it up and continue to perpetuate lies is absurd. If I learned incontrovertible proof that Christianity is false I would straight away buy some hookers and snort some coke because it wouldn’t at all matter would it?