WORLD: Why Should I Care About the Israeli-Hamas Conflict?

reply to post by ClintK


Look, don't put words in my mouth.

All you've done is tell me you're against Israel and blame them for everything

Please show me where I've blamed Israel for 'everything'.

I've already read a million posts like that.

Just like you 'read' that I'm blaming 'everything' on Israel.



I'm not saying that the failure of humanity is confined to actions by the Israeli government, the examples you have provided also prove the point to some extent. Humanity has learned from the world wars, or should have, we should be learning from our past that violence and hatred can only breed more violence and hatred. Following WW2 the world adopted the policy of no blame, that the page must be turned, injustice recognised but not retaliated against, because any persecution of one peoples can only lead future generations to persecute those in retaliation.

If you are convinced that Israel's actions against Hamas represented the best way of conducting the matter, you are seriously deluded.

This conflict is important becuase it represents this perpetual cycle of violence that the global community has now recognised as a futile policy that must be abandoned at all costs.

reply to simple,oil,if the trouble exspands it could seriously interupt our oil supplies.post by ClintK

You should care about this conflict because it is being supported by America, and because Israel is committing war crimes.

That doesn't mean you should not care about other conflicts in the world. You should, as a Human.

Another reason you should care, is that Israel is directly targeting innocent people, specifically children too.

I was just as concerned when the war broke out in S.Ossetia, just as concerned when Zimbabwe started murdering opponents in massive numbers, just as concerned with Darfur.

Another reason people are so angry about this war, is that the people are trapped. They don't have the option of leaving for a refugee camp somewhere. Gaza is a refugee camp!
They don't have the option of being protected by the UN, because Israel breaks international law and attacks the UN too!
They don't have the medical aid coming in to treat them, because Israel attacks convoys, hospitals, and prevents aid getting through by breaking the three hour ceasefire to prevent the distribution.

And all of this is being done in a tiny strip of land, densely populated, where the ability to migrate to another safer area is impossible. I cannot find another example of this scenario in any recent conflict.

It doesn't diminish the importance of other wars and events going on in the world, but Israel is directly targeting innocent people in a controlled and dense area, denying press coverage, controlling the media coverage like never before, using illegal methods and weapons in specific violation of the Geneva Convention, and America is supporting it.

These are reason that you, as a Human, should care.

That is unless you have a superiority complex over other people, and see certain children and women as not deserving of Human rights and protection. Maybe if it was another "type" of person being slaughtered by Israel it would cause you to have some humanity?

Well you should care more about what is going on over there, because the conflict may not remain a local one. Depending on the interactions of Israel with the other muslim cultured countries in the region, such as Iran or Syria the conflict could rapidly escalate and engulf the whole middle east. As Israel's military allies, the west would step in. And you would have something comparable to a third world war on your hands. Reason enough ?

Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by ClintK

 

Probably no one cares weather you care or not. I don't care.

But you certainly WILL care if the ME explodes and the US is drawn into
what could morph into a global conflict. Perhaps even WW3. Then you will care.

Kosovo threatened to become a wider conflict. Georgia threatened to become a wider conflict -- and both still could.

Originally posted by The_Modulus
reply to post by ClintK

 

Look, don't put words in my mouth.

All you've done is tell me you're against Israel and blame them for everything

Please show me where I've blamed Israel for 'everything'.

It's rather obvious from your signature.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by ClintK]

Perhaps one reason you should care....if you live in the US, that is....is because you are partly responsible. Your tax dollars support israel and its agenda more than any other country in the world, and the majority of those tax dollars go to weapons and bombs that are used against civilians. As a member of a "representative" government (as if), then as long as you are not out working to change the fact that your government uses your tax dollars in unrighteous wars then YOU are just as responsible as every other tax payer.
I realize there are many governments that do horrible things but i do criticize america because (in addition to the fact it does the most) as a taxpayer, my government in some form represents me when they go around the world and kill innocent people. I expect more from it, and i expect more from myself than just to sit by ignoring it while it happens in my name. Should this conflict be more reviled than vietnam, laos, cambodia, el salvador, columbia, afghanistan, etc? Perhaps not, but 1, we support this one with more tax dollars than most others, and 2, this one is going on now against a people who have never raised a hand to hurt us. This same argument could naturally be used for iraq as well.

Originally posted by The_Modulus
reply to post by ClintK

 

If you are convinced that Israel's actions against Hamas represented the best way of conducting the matter, you are seriously deluded.

I'm not convinced of anything. I really haven't read a post yet that explained why The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is so extraordinary.

Originally posted by pexx421
those tax dollars go to weapons and bombs that are used against civilians.

If you say so.

What about the money Iran gives Hamas? And Hezbollah? In most conflicts, there are outside parties that help fund each side. This one is no different.

Originally posted by ClintK

It's rather obvious from your signature.

Riiiight

Great way of avoiding a response to my post.

As to why this is an extraordinary war? Because one third of all victims were children and at least two thirds civilians. Because gps protected coordinates, including schools, UN shelters and media outlets were attacked. And most importantly because there were countless alternative solutions to the problem that the Israeli government unilaterally ignored.

First of all, the money iran gives to hamas or hizbollah is not even on the same scale as what US gives israel. Thats all besides the point though. As i said, and as you apparently missed as the main point of my statement (sorry if your english comprehension is bad, ill try to put it simply), as an american I AM RESPONSIBLE IN SOME WAY FOR HOW MY COUNTRY SPENDS MY TAXES.

So, to break it down for you. If iran spends money on something.....no kharmic debt for me. If russia spends money on something.....i dont feel guilty about doing nothing because its not my country and i have no influence. If the US does something....i know my work is supporting it, and share in the responsibility. Comprende?

Originally posted by ClintK

Originally posted by The_Modulus
reply to post by ClintK

 

If you are convinced that Israel's actions against Hamas represented the best way of conducting the matter, you are seriously deluded.

I'm not convinced of anything. I really haven't read a post yet that explained why The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is so extraordinary.

Then you are not reading them correctly, or you are choosing what to accept based on your already misguided beliefs.

Israel is killing a large number of CIVILIANS.

They are not only killing Hamas, they are attacking the civilian infrastructure, aid workers, media...

And America says that this is acceptable.

That is what makes this extraordinary.

In any other circumstances, the international community would be screaming about this, including America. But somehow, because Israel is the one murdering women and children, it's suddenly "overlooked", or made to appear to be more complicated than it actually is.

It's not complicated at all. While Hamas is nasty and things would be better with another power in place, Israel has no excuse for their actions and war crimes. Their response is disproportionate, targeting the civilian population. This attack will not end terrorism against Israel, it will fuel it, a person would have to be a complete idiot to believe that Israel actually thinks it will be safer after this action.

What makes this so severe and outrageously unusual, is that America (and the rest of the world through inaction) is supporting a large power while it annihilates another people. They are using the goal of disarming Hamas and preventing attack on Israel, when we all know that this action will only increase the attacks on Israel over the coming years.

This is the only piece of evidence you need to know that Israel hasn't attacked Gaza to protect Israel from rockets. They've attacked Gaza to incite a wider conflict, allow an excuse to continue pounding Gaza for years to come, wipe out the people and snatch the land.

Israel will be in a state of perpetual war for years to come, and through this they'll take Gaza, attack any neighbor they feel like attacking while seizing more land.

also to add is that the rest of the world is generally united in voting on UN resolutions condemning israel, just as all other acts of war and terror are regularly condemned and penalized, but in this instance the whole worlds will is thwarted time and again by americas veto, which usually leaves the votes at 180 to 2 and yet that 2 (US and Israel) get their way due to US veto power.

Not to mention that israel has broken more UN resolutions than any other country in history.

reply to post by detachedindividual


What exactly, is your problem?

Israel is attacking Hamas and rocket launchers, and yes, civilians are getting killed. That is not a war crime!

Just because Jews/Israelis do something does not constitute a war crime!

What war crimes?

Show me a war or a fight where civilians didn't get killed as well? Hey! It happens.

Those of you who think a war, or fighting is a sanitary process whereby you can carefully segregate and separate civilians, you have no idea of what you are talking about!

How about the rocketeers who intentionally aim for civilian areas?

For a group out to deny ignorance, you seem mighty determined to ignore reality.

I think largely the opposition is to false government stated goals. It is quite obvious to most dissidents and protestors, i think, that while israel states that its goal is an end to violence, and self defense, that by looking historically its quite clear that the true goal of israel is to force out all palestinians and claim the land as sole property and control of the israeli state. THIS is what i think most people are protesting, the fact that israels ever expanding occupation and control are painted as "self defense", and this is accepted. The muslim palestinians are painted as militants, but the germans could have equally painted the jews in the warsaw ghetto in the same light, and used that as an excuse for their cleansing and oppression as well.

No one tries to state that the palestinians are trying to kick out israel, or to occupy THEIR areas, and most europeans and indeed even palestinians and iranians state their desire is for the palestinians to be secure in their land as defined by the UN in the 60's.

This is not a battle between two people fighting for control of the other. It IS that on the israeli side, but on the palestinian side it is a fight to retain what little they have, and to find freedom from starvation, occupation, oppression, and to have the right for self determination.

You cannot simply point to hammas and say, "well they are a terrorist organization and so its justified"....the israeli's have treated ALL the palestinian governments in the same fashion, with attacks, violence, mass deaths, and assassinations, from yasser arafat, to the PLO, to fatah.

Originally posted by dooper

What war crimes?

How about blowing up a school filled with children? And a safehouse containing about a hundred people, whose coordinates were known and protected? Or attacking journalists and shelling their protected transmission locations? Or how about blowing up UN headquarters, or even better, using chemical weapons in civillian areas?

Originally posted by The_Modulus

Originally posted by ClintK

It's rather obvious from your signature.

Riiiight

Great way of avoiding a response to my post.

As to why this is an extraordinary war? Because one third of all victims were children and at least two thirds civilians. Because gps protected coordinates, including schools, UN shelters and media outlets were attacked. And most importantly because there were countless alternative solutions to the problem that the Israeli government unilaterally ignored.

Your post was exactly what I'm talking about. So is this one. You have an extremely entrenched, one-sided view of the conflict and it really matters a lot to you. It doesn't to me. Not yet anyway.

The U.S. nuked two Japanese cities. Almost entirely civilian casulties. The germans bombed London. Almost entirely civilian casulties. You make like civilian casulties are an entirely new thing.

reply to post by ClintK


Since you persist in failing to either understand, or just read my posts, I will just paste what I wrote above again:

"This conflict is important becuase it represents this perpetual cycle of violence that the global community has now recognised as a futile policy that must be abandoned at all costs."

Please read before you reply.

You know, this thread has degenerated into exactly what I don't understand. I tried to find out why people were so entrenched in their viewpoints and so emotional about them. Why was this such a big deal.

And what did I get? Mostly emotional, entrenched one-sided viewpoints. Oh, and a few of you managed to insult me. Way to go.

I frankly think the conflict is going to go on forever, mostly because of entrenched, one-sided emotional viewpoints. Oh well. I'm afraid I had it right in the first place. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict really isn't that important.

Originally posted by The_Modulus
reply to post by ClintK

 

Since you persist in failing to either understand, or just read my posts, I will just paste what I wrote above again:

"This conflict is important becuase it represents this perpetual cycle of violence that the global community has now recognised as a futile policy that must be abandoned at all costs."

Please read before you reply.

It's a "policy?" It can actually be "abandoned?"

That's why I didn't respond to that. I didn't feel it made any sense.