UNWRA HQ in Gaza hit by 3 Israeli white phosphorous shells

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
not that there were not Hamas terrorists firing from inside the compound.

If they were, wouldn't you think the UN officials would have reported that?

He was sorry that the Hamas caused the UN compound to be targeted.

Can you post the quote where he said that?

There's a difference between attacking something and saying you're "sorry," and attacking something and saying an attack was a "mistake."

Of course, if the UN had not allowed Hamas to go inside and fire at Israeli's, then it would not have been "counter" attacked.

The UN allowed them inside and fire rockets? Proof?

We saw the same thing when the UN allowed hezbollia terroprists to go to their post, set up rockets and fire them into Israel.

If by "let" you mean after Israel fired at UN members and scared them out of the area, then sure, they "let" them fire rockets.

And just like before, big surprise, they were fired "BACK" on.

And where are their bodies, guns, rockets, ammo, shells, clothing, anything?

As long as the UN allows terrorists to fire from their position's and hide behind them, I don't feel sorry for them at all.

Oh right, now UN is using human shields. (see, I can use that smiley too).

I am concerned about them hitting the media building. I just found this article on the hit on Reuters website. I am not very good at using all the linking tech here so I am copying a few portions and placing the link below.

Israeli army spokesmen, who had been in touch with Reuters shortly before the blast to confirm the location of the bureau in Gaza, said they were looking into what had happened. Ten hours later, the army had still to offer an explanation.

Responding to the damage to a Reuters newsroom whose exact location had been communicated to Israeli forces, Reuters Editor-in-Chief David Schlesinger said: "I call on all sides in the conflict to use the utmost care around professionals who are trying to report the situation accurately around the world."

JOURNALISTS' CONCERNS

The Israeli government, which has barred foreign journalists from entering the Gaza Strip, has accused Hamas of endangering civilians by fighting in residential areas. Reuters journalists said they saw no gunmen near the Gaza bureau before it was hit.

The international news agency has also raised concerns with the Israeli government and military over statements by troops in the field this week that they were targeting anyone in the Gaza Strip who appeared to be "observing" their movements -- comments that seem to imply great risk to journalists.

www.reuters.com...


From the moment I head this on the news this morning, my first thought was that this was purposefully done to stop information from getting out. I have read every post in this thread and still cannot understand how people can swallow every word the IDF and the Israeli Govt. says. My god, you have to be a fool not to see they are at worst outright lying and at best working the propaganda machine. (And failing miserably at that)

My question is the same as many of you....when the heck is someone going to step in????? I fear there is going to be some very big movement and they bombed the media building in hopes of keeping it out of the MSM spotlight. WAKE UP PEOPLE, THESE ARE THE ACTS OF TERRORISTS!!!!!

Originally posted by TMan312

Originally posted by mrmonsoon

A senior Israeli military officer said Israeli troops shelled after coming under fire from Palestinian militants inside the compound

Yahoonews

So, just like when fighting the Hezbollah terrorists, Hamas walks right up to the UN compound and starts firing weapon s @Israel troops

The UN is then aghast that Israeli's dare fire back.

If the UN allows terrorists to hide behind them and fire weapons into at Israeli soldiers, from their post, they deserve what they get.

When the UN allows this, they are acting like allies of the terrerists.

Nope all wrong.
There's no excuse for what Israel is doing. I'm sick of hearing about this. It's pathetic that Israel has fallen so low as to bomb a UN hq and a Hospital. Come on...that is inhumane and you know it. Someone should do something to stop them. And no im not saying they should team up with Hamas either

Nobody can do anything to stop them except the US. Five more days of Bush and Obama is not being forceful on the issue. His only goal on the world stage is closing the deal in Afghanistan. He will not lose a proxy war to Iran, it would destroy his presidency before it started. The support will continue to flow into Isreal. When Hamas finally had enough and Iran abandons them, Obama will send Clinton over to be present at the peace/surrender table. It's a win win situation for him if he just does nothing and keeps the status quo.

So these reporters are in a war zone and get suprised when bullets and bombs go off around them? I'll bet they would be REALLY suprised that they might get wet while reporting on a hurricane too.

The military doesn't want people reporting on their movements because they, maybe, want to suprise the enemy? You think? That's why Israel isn't letting reporters into Gaza. Good lord these people are dumb. Darwin award for them.

You are right, I forgot, the US is where freedom of the press matters, my bad.

reply to post by DantesLost


Yes, I read that also, and I also pointed out that it is countered in the same article.

You offered 2 links, could you point to the one that says everyone is bound to the Geneva Convention and under whose authority?

I also offered that this issue isnt a Geneva Convention Issue, for the Conflict does not fall under the rules of the Convention as stated in the Convention.

Please do not misunderstand me. Intentionally targeting a civilian when no military value what so ever exists, is wrong. However, I beleive tha this WP issue is a non issue at all. WP is being used as intended in that same protocal. Even if it wasnt, it is still a non issue as Many Many nations refused to sign off on it. look it up.


Article 1
Definitions
(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:
(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;

Originally posted by redhead57
You are right, I forgot, the US is where freedom of the press matters, my bad.

Freedom of the press is not a problem apparently. Thay are free enough to make the choice to be standing knowingly in harms way - right in the middle of the action. You don't stand in the middle of the street to do a traffic report for the same reason that you don't stand in an active war zone.

BTW, Gaza is not in the U.S. - they don't have a Constitution in Gaza.

reply to post by grimreaper797


I understand your point of view clearer now.

No, you dont run the whole village down. But you certainly and selectively take out everyone and everything that is purposefully harboring them.


Hey, if an Israeli, Hamas, Iraqi, German.... is purposely targeting civilians that have no Military Value, they need to be dealt with swiftly. But this is not what Israel is doing. If Israel was purposely attacking them in Genocide, dont you think we would be seeing Carpet Bombed Cities?

If I were a "evil zionist" I would first Bomb the Hell out of every aid station, school, mosque, Burger Joint, water plant, sewage removal, purification device, power producing plant and infrastructure... Then allow aid trucks to come in, wait for them to be staged and then systematically kill the aid workers. Then wait for a bunch of hungry school kids to show up at the aid pile and blow them up with a Fuel Air Explosive then fire bomb the whole city with relentless 24 hour Carpet Bombing of nothing but incindiary devices. When the smoke clears, drop an aid package, wait for the crowd and bomb the heck out of it again.

Im sorry, but I do not see Israel doing this right now. Everything they have bombed is of military value. They have been very selective and have had a lot of restraint. You do not know what an unrestrained Israel would actually do. This is not it.

I have heard time after time how the Israeli military are the best trained and well equiped armed forces in the Middle east, if not the world.

These elite soldiers how ever cannot tell the difference between a

3 year old girl and an adult gunman
an elderly woman and an adult gunman
a UN school and a military instilation
a media centre from a mobile rocket launch sight
a UN aid centre from a Munitians bunker
a Hospital from a military barrack
an aid truck from a tank.

They also seem to have trouble reading the proper use of WP shells

maybe they should spend more time doing eye exams and prescribing glasses to some of these elite fighting men so they can read maps and then we might see a few less innocent victims.

For those really interested. I found that WP is not banned. Look here CWC Chemicals



Also, to be governed by the CWC, you actually have to sign the documents. I cannot see Israels name anywhere or any other state yet. Maybe Ill find it later. But as it stands now, WP is legal, even to signatory's of the Convention.

Here is another link, a starting point on that CWC treaty. You will find it interesting to read. CWC Website

I know no ammount of research and jaw jacking is going to 'Make' anyone see what I see. But here is some of the information to consider.

Remember, the parties that signed or ratified only certain elements of a treaty or convention are only bound by what they signed. Its a contract. Also realize, A huge chunk of the Mideast is not Bound, nor signatory to any of our Perceived treaties and rights. Also remember that legally, if you are an ununiformed combatant, you can be shot in the head, no questions asked. The conventions look down upon ununiformed combantats harshly, which Hamas is.
Signatory's and NOT of the CCW
Notice who signed what and who is absent. You dont sign an agreement, its not binding.

So, I respectfully disagree with everyone crying foul here. I see your point of view, some of them anyways. But the military in me sees it differently.

reply to post by arcnaver

You offered 2 links, could you point to the one that says everyone is bound to the Geneva Convention and under whose authority?

Link one shows that Israel ratified and signed the declaration in 1995.
Link two gave further information on the Convention of Certain Conventional Weapons.

In the Geneva Convention there are Laws of War,those concerning civilians etc can be found in this link.www.geocities.com... Israel signed this Protocol.

It is not forbidden to use incendiary weapons whose purpose is that of a smoke screen only.But it is forbidden to use them if their intent is to cause harm to humans and/or animals.


(Edited to add)

I know no ammount of research and jaw jacking is going to 'Make' anyone see what I see. But here is some of the information to consider.

Thats because you are mixing up the US Chemical Weapons Convention with the UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons.



[edit on 15-1-2009 by DantesLost]

[edit on 15-1-2009 by DantesLost]

Anyone else think it's funny how the mainstream media has yet to supply a story? CNN's current top news item is the crashing of a luxury airliner on the Hudson River... By not including this story, they have shown us where they really maintain their priorities.


[edit on 15-1-2009 by cognoscente]

reply to post by arcnaver


Intentionally targetting civilians IS a genava conventions issues - the 3rd convention


so its a war crime.

edit:

i allready posted both the CWC and CCWC links from the UN - AND the person who polices the UN about the CWC - so play the game as you will - Israel have now used WMD`s against a civilian population , as per the CWC.

[edit on 15/1/09 by Harlequin]

Hey, at least we can somewhat count on the international news community...

news.bbc.co.uk...

I did have to do a manual text search to find this though. It did not appear on the main page.

Originally posted by Loke.
It is time to set in UN troops against israel as we tend to do in all other conflicts. When the enemey starts to bomb your neutral places it is time to take action for sure.

Best regards.

Loke.

Nutural my butt... Hamas was fighting from those buildings so they deserve to be blown apart. You only hear what you want to hear. The UN is not a body that cares to much for westeren ideals. I could care less if they are burned out, blow up and dismantled.

They need to leave NY and setup in Iran. The UN is all for terrorist activities and as such should be labled an enemy of all free people.

Isreal needs to keep up the killing and dismanteling of Gaza. In fact they need to blitz the place until Osama is sworn in here in the US. After that I am afraid our new Muslim President will be the real enemy of Isreal. I am sure glad Isreal has Nukes or Obama may think about attacking them...

Go Isreal and to hell with all arab nations that wish her harm....

The U.N. wont do a darn thing. It's a hollow institution, it doesn't require enough of its' members, and therefore is entirely ineffective. It's the big puppet show being carried out for the citizens of the nations of Earth while the real decision making goes on by 'shady' government figures behind secret doors.

President "Ban" just met with Israeli Minister Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, or was it Ehud Barak? Anyways, Israel supposedly said that it was a grave mistake, "if it was Israel's fire" quote unquote. Gee, i dont think any Palestinian Resistance groups have access to white phosphorous weaponry.

I have no remorse for Israel's actions this time, they took this one entirely too far. They assassinated the 3rd highest government member of Hamas, a non combat figure but not according to Israel of course. It would be the equivalent of Ehud Barak or Tzipi Livni tragicly dieing in a suicide bombing. Beyond that, they messed up well before today's assassination-by-artillery-fire of the Hamas minister in his home.

They've killed entirely too many Gazan civilians, and their recklessness has shown through once again, just like it did in Lebanon but even worse because Israel knows that it has Gaza wrapped like a pig pen with no foreign media allowed. This is just despicable ... I'm losing more and more support of Israel by the day ... I mean ... truth be told 90% of the citizenry of Israel are of Eastern European descent. Now something is wrong with these hebrew speaking white boys (and im white so dont go thinking that is a racist comment) sitting up in the spot acting like Kings of the Earth because they have the city of Jerusalem in ther possession from stealing the place by force of arms from Jordan. I mean, I'm all for the correct definition of a Jew being someone who PRACTICES Judaism, regardless of ethnicity, but there is also a true ethnic Semitic Jewish population still around today's world, in various communities in various countries, and most of them are in Israel, yet account for less than 10% of Israel's population. Considering that Ethiopian Jews have been the largest recent migration group into Israel, the Semitic Jews likely make up less than 5% of the population.

Make no mistake whatsoever when I tell you that the Muslim Palestinian Arabs being bombarded to blood and pieces in Gaza have WAY more of an ethnic, blood-line tie to the people described as the Ancient Israelites in the Jewish Torah and Christian Old Testament than their Israeli counterparts. Also remember in ancient times, Israel was the Northern Kingdom of the 10 tribes which the Assyrians conquered and deported after their idolatry and polytheism stank up to the high heavens, as the Bible would explain it. Judah was the Southern Kingdom which had Jerusalem in its' territory, which consisted mainly of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. This Southern Kingdom doesn't currently exist, and is not prophesied to exist, but my point is that Israel ended up being the wicked kingdom in the Old Testament, suffering the wrath of YHWH long before the southern kingdom met a similar but much less bad of an overall fate.

What this means is entirely up to the individual reader. But let me just say we have Edomites on the throne over in Israel right now at best, and Cainite Vipers mixed in with Japhetic Non-Semitic Ashkenazis at worst. Either way an imposter is sitting over there acting like they are better than every other nation on Earth, and can break the Geneva Conventions at will accordingly. I hope they go down like the Apartheid Government of South Africa. If Israel acted right, I'd have nothing but respect for it, but they most certainly do not act right.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by runetang]

Has any one heard first hand accounts of phosphorous munitions . They have been around a long time . Vietnam vets have some horrid stories about the use of phosphorous munitions.

I have a strong stomach and they will turn many a stomach . I will refrain from telling the what happens if shrapnel from such weapons hit a human being .

phosphorous munitions have no business being used in a civilian population or as a anti personnel weapon .

Waiting for the return of mustard gas .

Originally posted by Lostinthedarkness
Has any one heard first hand accounts of phosphorous munitions . They have been around a long time . Vietnam vets have some horrid stories about the use of phosphorous munitions.

Yes,

I saw the pictures of the victims of Fallujah after the U.S. Marines bombed the place directly with white phophorous (whiskey pete) before going in. They met little resistance upon entering because everyone had been burned to death. Except all of their clothing was unharmed, all of their equipment unscathed. Yet the people's bodies themselves were terribly burnt and deformed, some to the point of unrecognizability. that is a word right?

I'm no expert and have never served. With that said, from what I have read, WP was used in Fallujah to drive insurgents out of spots where regular high explosive shells couldn't get to. After the insurgents were driven into the open, high explosive shells were used.

I'm assuming the Israelis may have tried doing the same.

Originally posted by Midav
I'm no expert and have never served. With that said, from what I have read, WP was used in Fallujah to drive insurgents out of spots where regular high explosive shells couldn't get to. After the insurgents were driven into the open, high explosive shells were used.

I'm assuming the Israelis may have tried doing the same.

wouldn't that also mean that innocent civillians get driven out into the open as well in gaza?
so I would have to say that it is more for more indescriminant use than driving out insurgents.
this is in built up densly poulated areas, not from a bunker in a sand hill.