The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

Originally posted by paperplanes
"Atheist" is a more complex assignment than most people realize. It isn't necessary to assert that nothing exists within a spiritual or supernatural realm; indeed, atheists like myself leave that open to possibilities. I do not believe in any god or gods, but would I be so presumptuous as to assert that "There is no supernatural force."? No. I believe that there are many possibilities within this realm, but I don't feel compelled to seek them out. It just isn't of great importance in my life. So in this way, I can appreciate your idea of God as consciousness. I don't feel a great tug or draw to find a god for myself, though.

I'm still a bit vague about your opinions of the Bible. Do you consider yourself a Christian? Do you adhere to the traditional belief that the Bible is the infallible word of God? I noticed that you reference the Bible, but I'm unsure of your thoughts of the book in its entirety.

You would be agnostic. I also went from atheist to agnostic for the same reason you do, too presumptuous to assert there is nothing out there. Especially when you consider just how limited our perspection of even the universe we can see is.

As far as finding it, you will one day.

Nope, I'm not a christian. I actually follow and do what Jesus says.

I am someone who looks for the truth and understanding. I learned and found a bunch of things, had a vision/experience and so on. When I learned them, the bible and religion couldn't have been further away from me. When I see the words and actions of Jesus, I see truth. And there are other things I see truth in. But the bible is not my authority, I do not think it is the word of god, it is the word of men, and I think Paul is evil.

I seen the evil and hypocrisy of the church. I became atheist. I realized that it was kind of dumb of me for what is mentioned above, so I became agonostic. Which was to say, I don't know and I doubt anyone else knows either. After awhile, little things here and there got me to lean towards there probably is a god, but I doubt he talks to anyone, so I was a deist. Since I figured there was, I started to seek it out, and then I found the truth.

If you aren't interested in finding god, then I won't force it on you. But I can explain things in a way that will make sense, and in ways you have never heard from a christian. I can show you where it says it in the bible and give the bible a bit of sense, and I can also talk about it without the bible as well. I don't do that because the bible says so dogma crap.

Originally posted by tengkorak
It is faith....kind a thang you logic guy wouldn't comprehend our way of life, just wait till the end, and see who is right. coz right now, with all our sin, we are going to be BURN ALIVE AND FOREVAAAA! (You do not care i can tell, somehow)

Nope. Only you will be judged by that ridiculous set of man made scare tactics. I've not sinned, I've never sinned nor was I born with it. I'm free. You on the other hand get to run your life through fear, manipulation and dread of the afterlife.

I know I'll be fine when this current life ends -- my energy will simply move to whatever the next plane of existence is, free from your pathetic book of rules and outdated, draconian concepts of "right" and "wrong"

God is a consept in our head in our brain where we reason and prosess all things ,walking, talking ,chewing gum.
Are feet are on the ground , but our head is in heaven.
Wars and horrinible things are going on today as were back then, in the name of God.
Thats right the same one that you cant see, hear, taste, touch,.
get my point, money ,land, and power are what these wars were fought for.
imho God ought to come down and smack all those people and ask them who gave you permission to use my name.
Matthew ,Mark, Luke, and John.They wrote some of the Bible and the others writers are mentioned in front or the stories they told.
God inspired,Well if the only way we can prosess God in in our mind.we can say that it is inspired by God .

than you got Jesus the holy ghost your soul your heart and if you want you .can be a blood sacerfice for God.Totlely mind blowing.Carry on .

Please correct me if im wrong.

The Bible is the Divinely Inspired Word of the Only Living God. Prophecy is a foretelling of an event in such detail before it happens so as to necessarily require divine guidance. The Bible is a book containing hundreds of detailed prophecies. There are, for example, well over 60 distinct predictions in regard to our divine Saviour Jesus Christ. Here is a sample of prophecies that foretold the crucifixion of Christ. Not only were the predictions made 1000 years before Christ came from heaven to earth, but they were made over 500 years before crucifixion was first used anywhere in the world as a form of capital punishment! Crucifixion didn't exist when the prophecies were made.

A scientist picked out 48 such prophecies and determined that the probability of one man randomly fulfilling them all is 1 in 10 to the exponent of 157. That is one followed by 157 zeros! Your chances of winning a typical lottery jackpot is about 1 in 108. (100,000,000) Yet, Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies! (reference www.allaboutthejourney.org...)

Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David Jer 23:5 Lk 3:31
7. Tribe of Judah Gen 49:10 Rev 5:5
8. Family line of Jesse Isa 11:1 Lk 3:32
9. Born in Bethlehem Mic 5:2 Mt 2:1-6
10. Herod kills the children Jer 31:15 Mt 2:16-18
Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
11. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
12. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
13. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
14. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
15. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6
16. Judge Isa 33:22 Jn 5:22-23
17. King Ps 2:6 Jn 18:33-37
18. Anointed by the Spirit Isa 11:2 Mt 3:16-17
19. His zeal for God Ps 69:9 Jn 2:15-17
Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled
20. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
21. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
22. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
23. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
24. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12
25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey Zech 9:9 Mt 21:1-7
26. Stone of stumbling to Jews Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22 1 Pet 2:6-8
27. Light to Gentiles Isa 49:6 Acts 13:46-48
The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled
28. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
30. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
31. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
32. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50
33. Accused by false witnesses Ps 35:11+20-21 Mt 26:59-61
34. Silent before accusers Isa 53:7 Mt 27:12-14
35. Wounded and bruised Isa 53:4-6 1 Pet 2:21-25
36. Beaten and spit upon Isa 50:6 Mt 26:67-68
37. Mocked Ps 22:6-8 Mt 27:27-31
38. Fell under the cross Ps 109:24-25 Jn 19:17; Lk23:26
39. Hands and feet pierced Ps 22:16 Jn 20:24-28
40. Crucified with thieves Isa 53:12 Mt 27:38
41. Prayed for enemies Isa 53:12 Lk 23:34
42. Rejected by His own people Isa 53:3 Jn 19:14-15
43. Hated without cause Ps 69:4 Jn 15:25
44. Friends stood aloof Ps 38:11 Lk22:54;23:49
45. People wag their heads Ps 22:7;109:25 Mt 27:39
46. People stared at Him Ps 22:17 Lk 23:35
47. Cloths divided and gambled for Ps 22:18 Jn 19:23-24
48. Became very thirsty Ps 22:15 Jn 19:28
49. Gall and vinegar offered Him Ps 69:21 Mt 27:34
50. His forsaken cry Ps 22:1 Mt 27:46
51. Committed Himself to God Ps 31:5 Lk 23:46
52. Bones not broken Ps 34:20 Jn 19:32-36
53. Heart broken Ps 69:20;22:14 Jn 19:34
54. His side pierced Zech 12:10 Jn 19:34+37
55. Darkness over the land Amos 8:9 Lk 23:44-45
56. Buried in rich man's tomb Isa 53:9 Mt 27:57-60
His Resurrection & Ascension Prophesied Fulfilled
57. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
58. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
59. Ascended to God Ps 68:18 Eph 2:8-10
60. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13

Today, the only way Bible scoffers can explain away this astronomical probability is to discredit the prophecies in one way or another. Their only alternative is to accept that God is the author of the Scriptures. The Bible is a reliable book of genuine divine prophecy. You can trust it!

The evidence of divine prophecy is just a tiny portion of the proofs available to establish the divine origin of the Bible. Yet, they are more than sufficient to prove the inspiration of the Bible. There will always be men who scoff at the Bible. That, too, was prophesied.




[edit on 15-1-2009 by Bombeni]

Originally posted by badmedia
You would be agnostic. I also went from atheist to agnostic for the same reason you do, too presumptuous to assert there is nothing out there. Especially when you consider just how limited our perspection of even the universe we can see is.

Ah, that old bag. You've illustrated the ever-present semantic argument regarding the terms "atheist" and "agnostic". I tend to prescribe to the philosophical definition of atheism, which is a simple lack of belief in any god. This is different from the more common definition: an absolute denial of the existence of any god or spiritual force. Even Richard Dawkins, poster child of atheism, stated that the only reasonable definition of atheism is the former, as we have no idea what gods will be thought of in the future or what discoveries we may make to present new spiritual challenges, making absolute denial absolutely irrational. In short, I consider myself an atheist. I do not hold a belief in any god whose presence has ever crossed my mind--that's the simplest way to define my beliefs.

When I learned them, the bible and religion couldn't have been further away from me. When I see the words and actions of Jesus, I see truth. And there are other things I see truth in. But the bible is not my authority, I do not think it is the word of god, it is the word of men, and I think Paul is evil.

If you aren't interested in finding god, then I won't force it on you. But I can explain things in a way that will make sense, and in ways you have never heard from a christian. I can show you where it says it in the bible and give the bible a bit of sense, and I can also talk about it without the bible as well. I don't do that because the bible says so dogma crap.

We've confirmed that you do not believe in the pure veracity of the Bible. Do you then only believe the recordings of Christ's words and behavior? Through what process do you discern between fiction and truth within the Bible? Forgive me; I am skeptical of any claim of analyzing the Bible and extracting particular spiritual truths from what one claims is otherwise a fictional tome.

Originally posted by Bombeni
You ask why God didn't just punish Pharoah. The Egyptians persecuted the descendants of Jacob for hundreds of years, it was an entire people who persecuted them, not just Pharoah. Why was Pharoah's heart hardened? Well plenty of free will came into play, but God knew his heart would be hardened, and still God was very patient with Pharaoh and gave Pharaoh plenty of opportunities to repent.

Oh come on...

Exodus 10:20 (New International Version)

20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

The LORD then is responsible for all the killings he committed.
Just admit it, your God is a child killer (among other things)... there's just no way around it.

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by Bombeni
You ask why God didn't just punish Pharoah. The Egyptians persecuted the descendants of Jacob for hundreds of years, it was an entire people who persecuted them, not just Pharoah. Why was Pharoah's heart hardened? Well plenty of free will came into play, but God knew his heart would be hardened, and still God was very patient with Pharaoh and gave Pharaoh plenty of opportunities to repent.

Oh come on...

Exodus 10:20 (New International Version)

20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

The LORD then is responsible for all the killings he committed.
Just admit it, your God is a child killer (among other things)... there's just no way around it.

What are you today TruthParadox, an athiest, what are you calling yourself?

Last I heard you don't believe in God. WHY oh why do people who don't believe in God, use the scriptures of said God against Him?

Without God's interference, man's heart is hardened already. But God is determined that His will and purpose be done on earth, and so God places His hand of restraint upon man that His will be carried out to His glory. What man generally doesn't understand is that he is not in control in this world, God is. And God makes his rain to fall on the wicked as well as well as on the just. The light of day shines both on the just and upon the unjust unless God takes it away that it be darkened. That little kindliness that most men have is because of God's hand of restraint to keep his wicked heart from becoming totally obstinate or hardened to the point where he will do all of the depraved things which are therein. His hand of restraint is what softens man's heart that it isn't "continually" as wicked as it desires to be. All God did was remove his restraint on an already wicked, hardened heart.

And oh, what a blasphemous, dark heart you have. I cannot imagine the fate of those who reject Jesus and what He did, but for you, the ones who it isn't enough for you to reject Him, you aim to take other souls with you --- the old saying "misery loves company" couldn't be truer, shoes I hope to never ever be standing in for sure.

Originally posted by Bombeni
The Bible is the Divinely Inspired Word of the Only Living God.

This is just your 'opinion' - stop trying to misrepresent it as 'factual in context'.

Its called 'faith' (and not 'fact') for a very good reason.

I'm sure many other religious sects/cults are equaly as sure as you that their books are of 'divine origin' - work out why you completely dismiss theirs and you'll be on the right track to realising why people completely dismiss yours.

Originally posted by Bombeni
What are you today TruthParadox, an athiest, what are you calling yourself?

Last I heard you don't believe in God. WHY oh why do people who don't believe in God, use the scriptures of said God against Him?

Why would an ex-druggie try to explain to others that taking drugs is a mistake?
Ultimately, your faith blinds you, so it really doesn't matter what I say but I choose to say it nonetheless

Originally posted by Bombeni
Without God's interference, man's heart is hardened already. But God is determined that His will and purpose be done on earth, and so God places His hand of restraint upon man that His will be carried out to His glory.

Glory?! Where in the Hell is the 'glory' in taking childrens lives?!
I love these Christian responses... It's as if you're programed to say it and don't even realize what you're saying...

Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.

You know what else the Bible says? It says that God is an evil tyrant who is just fine with killing off children just to get a man to 'unharden' his heart when it was God who hardened it to be begin with!
You would think that an all powerful God could get his people out of bondage from a mere mortal without having to kill innocent children!

Originally posted by Bombeni
His hand of restraint is what softens man's heart that it isn't "continually" as wicked as it desires to be. All God did was remove his restraint on an already wicked, hardened heart.

So... that justifies him killing children... how?

Originally posted by Bombeni
And oh, what a blasphemous, dark heart you have.

A dark heart? At least I know that it's a sin to kill children...
Jesus...
No matter what your God does, you find a way to agree with him. It's almost humerous.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by TruthParadox]

Wow! That is all I can say. You guys are so far off it isn't even worth the words to describe. God asks us in the Bible to have faith. He does not have to prove anything to you, he will however humble you and he will humble you soon if you do not believe in him and obey his law. If you seek answers you must first admit that you are wrong and humble yourself to God and ask for wisdom. Anyone who is well educated in the world and ignorant of God is the same as a flashlight without batteries. If you want proof you must humble yourself and study the word of God to find the truth. If you read the Bible and you see contradictions then you do not comprehend what you are reading. You will only be able to comprehend when you have been given the ability to comprehend. You have to start with a clean slate and throw out all preconceived notions of what you have been taught through the churches of today. It does not matter if your back ground is Catholic, Atheist or Church of Wal-Mart. Throw it all away, none of it is true. Most of what we are taught today in these denominational churches comes from Pagan beliefs and of course the Pagan belief is going to contradict the true word of God. Seek and you will find, ask and you will be answered. If you approach the subject with the attitude that you already know all the answers then you are defeating the purpose and you will end up chasing your tail like you are doing now. God is love, God is the universe, God created you and he created everything you see. Aw. I could go on forever but the point is God does not create hate, war ect. You are right in that people create these things but they do so through Lucifer by denying Gods law.

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand

The stories are all running simultaneously, not one after another, one in side of another, like Japanese doll in doll. Finer details of the same story inside of every story. Adam to Eve is complete. That story is the full story of all time, more detail Cain and Able which is Spear and Arrogant, next generation, more detail, same story.

So it is a Truth: "that our own Cain is the destroyer of our own Able".

Reading all these religious idiots' comments I've come into conclusion that the elite have every right to control, use and abuse the inferior sheep anyway they wish to.

Who said humans are all the same ?

reply to post by bignick


That was potentially the most biased and hateful remark I've read on here in my 2 years of frequenting ATS.

What the freak, people? Why are you starring that hateful commentary? That's the same mindset that was used to kill BILLIONS of people down threw history. You complain about what you view as "Bad guys" and solve it by mimicking "Bad guys." Get the head screwed on straight, please. If you disdain inhumane treatment, consider yourself first.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Titen-Sxull:

You must remember that religion isn't the bad guy here. It is man who used religion to do all the evil they did throughout time. We can't do anything now to change what happened all those years ago. It was terrible and a sin against God to kill in his name.

God does not kill people. Man kills people. One who really knows the Father knows he is only of love and truth. It is his desire that we all come to him on our own. It is through this time of enlightenment we aregiven wisdom and spiritual knowledge. This is what tells me that it was not the Lord's idea to have animal sacrifices or to divide the land up for the Hebrews and for them to kill the peope already living on that land so they could take it over. These are not the ways of the heavenly Father. How do I know, because Jesus showed us what the attubutes of God are when he was here on earth.

You need to let go of your hang-up about what "religion" did thousands of years ago and yes, even today. It is man who uses the name or religion for their power ego. If it isn't done out of love or for love, then it is not the work of the Creator.

Common sense tells us that we do not need a church or a priest to be able to reach God. When Jesus came he showed us we could do that on our own. Which others of the OT had been reaching God on their own. We have King David who always kept a close walk with his Creator. I think some were used by an enity that claimed to be God or really thought that they were God and over used their power for evil in the OT. Like I said eariler the Gnostics have a good story on creation in their books. By the way, there are so good things in the Gnostiscs theory. I don't believe all of it but some of it rings true.

I believe that there is enough good truth and spiritual wisdom in the bible for one to seek if they so desire to seek with an open heart and a open mind. Seek with the eyes of a dove and a heart filled with love.

However, no matter what you read or how much you read, it is most important to keep your alone time with the Father. If you come before the throne with humbled spirit, you will learn all that you need to learn. This doesn't just happen. It has taken me over 30 years to believe what I believe. During that time I have had to relearn some things that I thought were set in stone and found out later that I hadn't learned anything. There have been other times where I am just in awe at some part of wisdom or knowledge I have just be shown. This is a time of meditation, not prayer time. I believe that prayer time is when we give out of ourselves and meditation is the time that we take in for ourselves.

And last, I use nature as a path to find enlightenment. I find being out in God's house can be most uplifting spiritually. Feel the wind rush across your face and watch the tress dance and the clouds roll by. How can one not be moved by a night sky and not see God?

God is real and easy to find. We are the ones who make it so hard. He's right there, always waiting for us to come to him.

Don't dwell upon the past.........live in the presnt and have your hope in the future.


Peace to you,
Grandma

Originally posted by paperplanes
Ah, that old bag. You've illustrated the ever-present semantic argument regarding the terms "atheist" and "agnostic". I tend to prescribe to the philosophical definition of atheism, which is a simple lack of belief in any god. This is different from the more common definition: an absolute denial of the existence of any god or spiritual force. Even Richard Dawkins, poster child of atheism, stated that the only reasonable definition of atheism is the former, as we have no idea what gods will be thought of in the future or what discoveries we may make to present new spiritual challenges, making absolute denial absolutely irrational. In short, I consider myself an atheist. I do not hold a belief in any god whose presence has ever crossed my mind--that's the simplest way to define my beliefs.

Well, it is a bit of semantics. It's just a distinction I made for myself when I was at that point, because of the number of people who say they are atheists and then go out to prove that god doesn't exist, and have that irrationality you speak of.

The defintion of agnostic is: One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

Don't suppose it matters to much what you call it, so long as we understand each others meanings.

We've confirmed that you do not believe in the pure veracity of the Bible. Do you then only believe the recordings of Christ's words and behavior? Through what process do you discern between fiction and truth within the Bible? Forgive me; I am skeptical of any claim of analyzing the Bible and extracting particular spiritual truths from what one claims is otherwise a fictional tome.

I believe that truth is authority, not that authority is truth. So what I mean is that I don't just take the bible for it's word. I recognize it's faults and short comings. You should be skeptical of any such claims, I would be as well and even with my experience I am still skeptical of any one's claims. I was just being honest about it, I don't try to use it as a way of saying I am an authority, nor should it be taken as a credentials for authority.

However, I do find the opinion that you must either accept it all, or accept none of it to be a plea for ignorance. You sound like a christian when you say such things. You are just looking for an out here, and that is ok. I won't bother you as I see you are not up to the challenge, nor have any desire to further your understanding.

reply to post by undo


Thank you UNDO. I could not have said that any better myself!

Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

You can't get a leg up on God, every bit of history was foretold through divine prophecy from God, The Creator of All. You ask why God didn't just punish Pharoah. The Egyptians persecuted the descendants of Jacob for hundreds of years, it was an entire people who persecuted them, not just Pharoah. Why was Pharoah's heart hardened? Well plenty of free will came into play, but God knew his heart would be hardened, and still God was very patient with Pharaoh and gave Pharaoh plenty of opportunities to repent.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by Bombeni]

Just because it was prophesied that God would do it does not make it okay for God to kill children. Surely the first born children of Egypt were not to be held accountable for the sins of the other Egyptians. Had the Bible said "God smited only those Egyptians who were wicked" it would be altogether different, but the Bible says God killed the first born (usually thought of as first born CHILDREN)

Punishing a bunch of innocent kids for the sins of the Pharaoh is not the sort of thing one might expect from a God who IS LOVE and therefore the Bible can only be the FLAWED work of man...

You didn't really do any refuting in Jobs case, what's your opinion on him? Why would God allow such terrible things to happen to someone righteous like Job?

So its not contradictory for a God who IS LOVE to go around killing people, commanding His people to slaughter every living thing in Jerich, etc?

I've seen abundant people be sent to there deaths for a war they claim to be a holy one. At one point in time a man spoke to me in broken english with an arabic accent and asked me if he was going to die, I told him the truth, "yes". He began to cry. I offered him my condolences. The thing that amazed me was his reason for doing what he did. it was in the Name of (God).

I so agree with what you post, Kudos friend.

the first born is the oldest in the family, not necessarily an infant, toddler or child. could be a full grown adult, in fact, more likely to be an adult as first born (eldest). just thought i'd mention that. but that's neither here nor there. i agree with grandma. if it doesn't make sense, it probably has some info missing or was misunderstood or mistranslated.