The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Hello Titen!

You know I do believe in a Holy Spirit....but you also know I dont go by the Bible for much of my 'truths' I have found.

I loved this post of yours and I agree. The prophecies are vague, so vague that it could relate to any time in earths history. Its not hard to predict things that will always be occurring. Its not hard to predict there will be a war over Israel...when the stage in set up in the OT that God desires a specific special land. Its not hard to predict there will be war, bloodshed, famine, disease, ect....for there has always been these things. Earth goes through changes, many of these changes are huge catalysts for mankind...its not hard to understand that this will always be, earth always will be changing and adjusting herself.

I also, do not believe these are true prophecies of Divine revelation. I dont think that God ever intends to give prophecies of our future because our future is malleable...its up to us. Many await on God to fix it....why should God fix it, when we are the ones that messed it all up.

We may disagree on some things, but we agree on many more things then what we disagree.

Great posts!
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Thanks LV, I agree that if there is a divine being out there it doesn't make much sense for it to give us free will and then demand the future follow a preset course. That would violate the purpose of free will which is to allow us to form our own destiny, the only thing we are bound by are the laws of nature and the reach of our imagination.

reply to post by edmc^2

No other time in the world where the Word of God with its message of the “good news of the Kingdom” has not been heard worldwide.

You do realize how this happened dont you. Many books were burnt, entire libraries burnt to the ground. People were killed if they did not follow the powers and what they brought forth as truth. People had to hide their beliefs if they went against the 'new religion' out of fear for their lives. This is why the gnostic writings were hidden, for if any of these writings were found, they were destroyed. Luckily, we had men smart enough to hide alot of the 'forbidden' knowledge back then and we are finding it today.

The 'word of God' was forced onto many. The powers made sure that the writings that were a threat to their power and leadership over the people, were done away with. There were many that did not accept the supposed 'word of god'. There were even believers in Jesus...that didnt believe in the OT God. But they respected Jesus and his teachings.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Any book that says to not use your own reasoning to discern things...is dangerous in my mind. I still use the Bible today, for I do find some great philosophies in the credited words to Jesus.

I do agree that we all have a choice. But I dont think this choice is about accepting a book as a word of God. I think its more of the choice of deciding if you live your life in ways of self or in service to others. Neither is wrong...for they both offer us things to learn from. We need to learn about the self, before we can begin to learn how to love and accept others. Even for non believers, this is the path that they are in need of...and there is no judgment on them for this need. There is understanding in why they need logical and evidence for understanding about life and the working of life.

One thing I do believe in is reaping what we sow. But this is not a bad thing, it is how we learn. Just like all things in nature cycle and recycle...I think so does the energy of the being...in Spirit, relearns, recycles, and keeps receiving what it is in need of to learn. Some might have to live a life of pride and greed, to later see....this is a path that only served the 'self'. What ever the being is experiencing in this life, is what they are in need of. IMPO.

I think the word of God is with in life itself, the very blueprint of the Universe, a place where understanding can always be found, never tainted or destroyed by man. I think if man can let go of all things told to them by fellow men...and look a the world with new eyes, un biased with any belief....they would all see the same understanding.

I might of gone into too much of my personal belief...if I did I apologize...I didnt do it for debate, just to explain where I come from.

Titen/Leo - once again you failed to provide proof of a a time period when ALL of the 'signs' mentioned in the prophecy were/are happening.

Just to be clear - let me state my point again:

They are composite signs that belong to a specific / particular time; that is, you will see all of them happening during that time period – worldwide. Just like a fingerprint is unique to an individual, they cannot be mistaken to identify that time period.

From 1914 onward all the prophetic signs that I listed can undeaniably be seen and verified.

So with your great wisdom - show me a time period when ALL of the 'SIGNS' are present.

I'll await your replies...


btw - it's easy to say 'fail' to an argument but if you cant back it up, then your position is very weak and nothing to stand on.

So repeat:
show me your proof - ALL the signs happening WORLDWIDE on a specific time period.

the 1914 time period is when the "signs' started to appear - the beginning of the fulfilment of the signs of "last days".

Here it is again, Matthew 24:3 "While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”


If the 1914 time period is not the "time" the "last days" started - which time period then can you provide.

I'll await your replies...

ty,
edmc2


[edit on 30-6-2010 by edmc^2]

reply to post by edmc^2


I guess you ignored the points Titen made to you about your list?

Anyways, I really hate ot get into nit picking, for its not going to matter to you anyways. But for kicks, lets go. If you dont mind, Ill even add to the lists.

*Spirit to be poured out on all flesh (Joel 2:28)
-How would we know such a thing occurs? I guess this is just for the believers to see and understand?

*False prophets and false Christs (Matthew 24:24)
-Again, I guess this is just for the believers to know and understand. Another fear tactic, I see this as. Since Christianity has such a hard time becoming, since many others denied its belief, I guess its not hard to see that always there would be those that stood against it. So how hard is this to predict. They thought there were people against them back then, they knew there would always be.

*The watering down of the gospel, teaching the doctrines of man rather than those of God. Even priests will be led astray. (2 Tim 3:5, Matt 15:9)
-Again, there were many different sects that believed different things. People actually killed and books and texts burnt since they did not agree to the main power of authorities. After things like the dead sea scrolls and the gnostic texts were found, its not hard to see why people start to question things. I guess God will punish them for their questions. I see it more as, man starts to use his own reasoning's and see how corupt this idea of God is, but what ever you wish to see there, by all means, have at it.

*Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
-Again, they couldnt keep killing and burning stuff forever, humans have a brain and enjoy using it.

*Good will be called evil and evil good. (Isaiah 5:20)
-Now really....come on here. Just look at your own religion....you all kill something and call it good.

*Worldly knowledge to increase (Daniel 12:4)
-Does this not make sense? Surely people would not assume that we would become more stupid.

*Gospel to be preached to all the world (Matthew 24:14, Revelations 14:6-7)
-Again, people were killed and threatened if they did not follow in the acclaimed truth by the powers. All the while, you had people hiding and still studying other things because they did not accept what the powers pushed on them. Thank goodness some of this knowledge out side of the Bible has survived. The Bible offers people a free pass of hope....all due to 'just believe'. You have a many people who were wanting to find hope...and still today we have this. Many people today are raised in the religion. I dont find it odd that it has spread like a disease would.

*Israel to be restored as a political state (Deuteronomy 28:64, 30:3 Jeremiah 29:14, 30:3 Isaiah 43:5-6, Ezekiel 36:24, Amos 9:14-15
-Was bound to happen....and a war over the land is bound to happen as well.

*Earthquakes, floods, famines, plagues and diseases such as the world has never seen. (Matthew 24 and Luke 21)
-I noticed you kept referring to the date of 1914 and after that to be watching for the signs.
Earthquakes like we have never seen....
look up 1812 new madrid fault it was a doozie!
Plagues? Smallpox killed over 300 - 500 million...and I guess God saw fit that we figured out a vaccination for it. It was one of the worst plagues in history. We are still fighting diseases, but I have hope there are cures and nature (gods gift) will help us. Just a example....or mabey it was satan that helped us find the vaccine! Cause God dosent want us to over come such awful things right?

*Peace taken from the earth. Wars increase throughout the earth until war is on every land (Matthew 24 and Luke 21)
-There is not war on every land and I can still find much peace here on Earth. It is sad that humans are still fighting over things of Earth, but we have much to still learn.

*Increase in persecution of the Christians (Matthew 24:9, Mark 13:9)
-Hmmm....I just am not seeing this. There are plenty of places where mankind is free to believe what they want.

*Increase in the wickedness, murder and crime among men. Increase in belief in the occult. (Matthew 24, Luke 21, 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 4:3-4)
-Its not hard to see what things like pride, greed, and lust lead to. How hard is this to predict? I find it funny that the Christians suppressed the occult...and then knew it would rise again. You try to take something from someone without a right to do so, dont expect them to not try to go after what you took from them. OH BTW.....the Bible is FULLLL of 'hidden things'.

*Signs and Wonders in heaven (Mark 13:25)
-Care to share what you are seeing as wonders in the heavens? I mean, I see wonders ever day up there....every day it reminds me of how much I am a part of something bigger then myself. But please watch out for a blue star that comes as a image...I saw it in my dreams...it is very bad and not supernatural. It will be made by man.

*Mountains made low, valleys made high (Isaiah 40, Ezekiel 38)
-Can you show me this....this did happen thousands of years ago....you can find under water cities and you can find proof that sea water used to be in places that are now dry land. We have a cave near by here in norther Alabama that has a shark tooth in the roof of the cave! Very cool!

*Christ will come suddenly to His temple. (Malachi 3:1)
*Two prophets preach in Jerusalem for 1260 days. They have the power to bring famines and plagues. They are killed and lie dead in the streets for three and a half days while the wicked of the earth rejoice in the streets and exchange gifts in celebration of their deaths. On the third day they arise striking fear in the hearts of the wicked. (Revelations 11)
*Armageddon. The nations of the earth gather to fight Israel at Jerusalem, at Armageddon in the valley of Jehoshaphat. (Revelations 16:16)
*Sun darkened, moon becomes as blood (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Revelations 6:12)
*The Lord appears at Mount Olive leading his people to victory (Ezekiel 38, 39, Daniel 11, 12, Joel 2,3)
*Christ appears to all the earth. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. (Phillipians 2:11)
-I guess we will have to wait and see for the above?

I guess I just am not seeing what you are seeing.

I still wish you peace and love though!
LV

[edit on 30-6-2010 by LeoVirgo]

What a load of rubbish. You mean that you are perfectly okay with the idea that your God will punish people for the simple acts the Bible says they will go to Hell for? It doesn't bother you that the cowardly, all liars, and magicians will be sent to an infinite hell for a finite list of sins? The idea of eternal punishment for only one life time of sin is one of the most easily identifiable pieces of BS in the Bible, its absurd and an insult to the intelligence of every thinking being. If God is even half as merciful as a human being he would be incapable of the injustices described in Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible.

Titen,

I’m not sure why you keep mentioning “hell-fire/eternal punishment”. Is this your belief? Do you really believe that such place exist?

Just because the ‘churches’ teach it does not mean that the Bible teach it.

Let me quote what I said again as reminder:

btw, I can't help but notice this (and I don't' fault you on this as the “churches” are the ones responsible for spreading it)

you said:
People getting cursed to a pit of eternal hellfire for lying, being a magician, being a coward (revelation 21:8).



The Bible does not teach that such a literal placed called “eternal hellfire” exist– actually what it said is “the lake that burns with fire and sulfur” which is symbolic, that is, it simply means – “second death” - no resurrection - and no, people are not as you say ‘curse’ or as some say ‘tortured’.

hint – compare this with the actual place called Gehena or Gehenom.

Check these scriptures if you want to know:

Jehovah God did not create such a place; it didn’t even come up in his heart - Jer. 7:31,
Man is a soul – Gen 2:7, since man is a soul thus the soul (man) dies Ezek. 18:4.
If one sins he will simply die (not be tortured) – Rom 6:23 Thus no such thing as an ‘immortal soul’ but will await resurrection -John 5:28, 29.
Here's where it came from: more available on line.

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581)

Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960,...

More here: en.wikipedia.org...

Let me expand it further – best – let me quote Leo

The 'word of God' was forced onto many. The powers made sure that the writings that were a threat to their power and leadership over the people, were done away with. …

Note also what Jesus said to the religious leaders of his day:

“Adroitly you set aside the commandment of God in order to retain your tradition. . . . Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition.” (Mark 7:6-13)

It is the ‘churches’ that transformed the traditions of men into ‘a’ “word of God”. And one of these traditions is the doctrine of the “hellfire / eternal torment”. It was used back then (not as much today) to force people into submission. History gives us all the evidence how this was done. It was used to force and scare people into submission. With what result? People started fearing God for the wrong reasons, turned God into tyrant, unloving, out to get you. It also turned many people away from a loving God – case in point –you Titen (of which I don’t fault you)

Imagine the lies this created to portray a loving God into a monster. Unjustifiable!

Imagine also the powers that the ‘churches’ got because of this unscriptural teaching. For hundreds of years people paid a lot of money to the ‘churches’ year to year believing that a “priest or whatever title they have” is able to intercede with God to save the “souls” of their dead loved ones from “hellfire / purgatory – or whatever place they think they are in”.

What’s the point of Jesus dying for us sinners then? What’s the point of the resurrection that Jesus promised to those who died?

On the logic side – the “eternal torment – hellfire” doctrine does not make sense.

Think about it man – would you punish your child who committed a mistake (sin) by grabbing his hand and placing it on a hot stove? Would you call that justice? If we as human beings don’t agree with such punishment – how much more it is with God who is the very essence of Love. Remember God suffered a lot when he witnessed his only begotten son being slapped, spit at, punch, ridiculed, and beaten to a pulp then finally nailed to die as a common criminal. He was able to hold his anger during that time because it must be done – to save us sinners (John 3:16, 1 John 4:8).

This doctrine – “hellfire/eternal torment” makes a mockery of that sacrifice.

So again, Titen, it’s up to you if you believe that such a place and teaching exists. The Bible says otherwise.

Here’s our website explaining in detail where this teaching came from: www.watchtower.org...

Btw, in all my studies and research – I never encountered the word “Hellfire” but if know where it is in the Bible please let know.

Ty,
edmc2

OH WAIT>....I forgot one....NOW I KNOW WHY I AM NOT SEEING THE SIGNS, it was right there in the book of all places, imagine that....

People will not believe the signs (2 Peter 3:3-4, Matthew 16:1-4)

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Leo - I pretty much aggree with what you said 'xept for some. I'll come back to them later.

ty,
edmc2

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
OH WAIT>....I forgot one....NOW I KNOW WHY I AM NOT SEEING THE SIGNS, it was right there in the book of all places, imagine that....

People will not believe the signs (2 Peter 3:3-4, Matthew 16:1-4)

Leo - I hope you are not joking because it is a serious matter playing jokes with the Word of God.

reply to post by edmc^2

Titen/Leo - once again you failed to provide proof of a a time period when ALL of the 'signs' mentioned in the prophecy were/are happening.

Wow. I already said each and every one of those signs can be construed to be happening in ALL TIME PERIODS to suit your purposes. And yes I did refute your claim, the world after 1914 is MORE prosperous than the one before it, the life span and population skyrocketed thanks to modern medicine and science.

You are wrong, you are guessing that 1914 is the start of these but all of these things existed in other time periods and yes often AT THE SAME TIME as each other. Go back to the Black Plague and you'll find Famine, Death, Pestilence, War (crusades), etc. You are wrong.

it's easy to say 'fail' to an argument but if you cant back it up

Your argument wasn't even an argument. You are stretching vague prophecies to fit a time period when they are so vague as to fit ANY TIME IN HUMAN HISTORY after the advent of civilization. The prophecy, had it directly mentioned the year 1914, would then support you but as it is it does not.

Do you really believe that such place exist?

No but most Christians do and they use to grand effect to instill guilt in shame in young and old alike.

Just because the ‘churches’ teach it does not mean that the Bible teach it.

You are aware that the lake of fire is in the Bible right? Its in Revelation. A lake of BURNING fire. Now you could claim that that is meant to be taken figuratively somehow but the verse itself says nothing on whether it is figurative or literal and most Christians interpret it as a LITERAL lake of fire. An otherworldly fiery prison for Satan and his angels.

Also the churches being confused about the truth just supports the fact that its not the word of God, because if even the spirit filled Christians can't find the correct interpretation than how can it be the perfect Word of God?

I'm aware of Gehenna and the non-literal lake of fire you want to go with but the majority of Christians believe this is a real place. Even if it is a metaphoric speech about the "Second Death" and separation from God it doesn't matter. Infinite punishment for finite sin is not just.

It is the ‘churches’ that transformed the traditions of men into ‘a’ “word of God”.

It is the churches who decided upon a Biblical canon. What's your point. This is just more proof that men got together to make this Bible - after Men had written it. It is not the Word of God just because they assert it as such.

Imagine the lies this created to portray a loving God into a monster.

Than you are openly admitting the Bible is filled with lies designed to paint God as a Monster. Than why do Christians continue to latch onto it as if it is the Word of God? Or are you saying that only the INTERPRETATION is to blame here and not the actual Bible. In which case I point you back to Deuteronomy 22, back to the murdering of the first born, back to Job to show you that clearly God is NOT the victim of any unnecessary spin, he was an evil tyrant in the Bible before they decided to translate Gehenna as Hell and mix in Greek and Egyptian underworlds.

On the logic side – the “eternal torment – hellfire” doctrine does not make sense.

Finally we agree on something. If only we could agree on the other passages of the Bible that make no sense and are illogical.

would you punish your child who committed a mistake (sin) by grabbing his hand and placing it on a hot stove?

This is why I don't understand the Original Sin story in Genesis. Adam and Eve were given no way to know whether eating the fruit was right or wrong. It is just like the stove analogy - God warns them that eating the fruit would be deadly (and breaches the 9th Commandment doing so). So when the eat the fruit they are like the child placing their hand on the stove even though they've been told not to, yes its a stupid action but it shouldn't have been a reason for God to curse them and their descendants forevermore.

So it can't really be pretended that this is something that is preached but that isn't really in the Bible.

You mention God suffering when Jesus is dying but my question is: Why didn't God do it himself? If he truly is merciful why doesn't he HIMSELF go down into a mortal body and die instead of his son. He's supposed to love us like we're his children and yet this is how he treats his ONLY SON, sending him to die a horrific death at the hands of the Romans. Of course when the doctrine of the Trinity was accepted down the line Christians now had an excuse, the could say "Oh but Jesus was God the Father" which only confuses it more and makes very little sense.

I hope you are not joking because it is a serious matter playing jokes with the Word of God.

It is not the Word of God. Have you not even been following the thread in which you are in? The Bible has been left decimated, it hasn't even come close to living up to the standards of even being mildly accurate or coherent. If it isn't even a coherent narrative or factually accurate it cannot be the Word of God.

[edit on 30-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by edmc^2

Leo - I hope you are not joking because it is a serious matter playing jokes with the Word of God.

No offense but I just pointed out that a book of prophecies says...people wont see the signs.

I do....find most of it, a joke. Nothing against your belief or faith.

Im well aware of that I will have to stand up for everything I say, think, and believe one day. Im good with that but thanks for your concern.

The word of God is within life itself, the very blueprint, order, and roots of the world and Universe. A place where a lone man without books can find Thee...a place that another man does not have to tell other men what it means.... a place that it can not be changed, tainted, or destroyed.

Its actually not funny at all...its very sad...that the majority of people cant weigh for themselves that the image of God they are given in the book is no better then the nature of most man today.

I still study the book...looking for the things of Spirit that are few and far between the things of man and Earthly knowledge. But many are following a image that is not Divine, not Holy, no different then mans ways of flesh here on Earth.

reply to post by edmc^2


A question if I may. What happens when the word is given to one man, and is filtered through that one mans reality and thoughts? Does that make that word, the only true word? What happens to that word, when it is affected by that one mans reality and thoughts? How can it be the only true word, when one mans reality and thoughts has tainted it?

This is the problem I see with those who take the bible literally.

reply to post by FiatLux


Thanks for the q FiatLux. Good and valid questions:

If you are refering to the Bible wiriters.

The answer is the writers themselves admitted that what they wrote was “inspired by God” - literally means “God-breath”.

Note what the apostle Paul stated at 2 Timothy 3:16, 17: “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” Thus the Bible's original author is no other than Jehovah God.
That means All of the things written in there are in there because God allowed it to be in there.

A simple illustration of how the Bible was written / transmitted is a businessman using a secretary to write his letter. Although the letter was written by the secretary – the letter actually belongs to the businessman because the thoughts were his. God used his holy spirit to guide the 44 men who penned the 66 books of the Bible.

Notice the following scriptures:

The apostle Paul said: “You know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.” (2Pe 1:20, 21)

King David said: “The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, and his word was upon my tongue.” (2Sa 23:2)

The apostle Mark said about King David: “By the holy spirit David himself said, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet.” (Mark 12:36)

Note what Jesus himself said to his apostles: “But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU”. (Mt 22:43)
Jesus assured his apostles that God’s spirit would help them, teaching, guiding, and recalling to their minds the things they had heard from him, as well as revealing to them future things. (Joh 14:26; 16:13)

These is the reason that although the Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years, from 1513 B.C.E. to 98 C.E the 66 books are in harmony with each other – as if ONE Book.

Note how the writers received divine direction. I’ll list a few here to give you an idea.

I highly recommend looking up the scriptures.

You can use this site to look up the texts: www.watchtower.org...

1) The apostles stated that God spoke “in many ways” to his servants in pre-Christian times. (Heb 1:1, 2)

2) In at least one case, that of the Ten Commandments, the information was divinely supplied in written form – in stone, Moses in turn merely copied them into the scrolls. (Ex 31:18; De 10:1-5)

3) In other cases, information was transmitted by verbal dictation, word for word. Case in point - when presenting the large body of laws and statutes of God’s covenant with Israel, Jehovah instructed Moses: “Write down for yourself these words.” (Ex 34:27)

4) The prophets also were often given specific messages to deliver, and these were then recorded, forming part of the Scriptures.—1Ki 22:14; Jer 1:7; 2:1; 11:1-5; Eze 3:4; 11:5.

Among still other methods used for conveying information to the Bible writers were:

5) Dreams and visions:
- Dreams, or night visions as they were sometimes called, evidently superimposed a picture of God’s message or purpose on the mind of the sleeping person. (Da 2:19; 7:1)

- Visions given while the person was conscious were an even more frequently used vehicle of communication of God’s thoughts to the mind of the writer, the revelation being impressed pictorially upon the conscious mind. (Eze 1:1; Da 8:1; Re 9:17)

- Some visions were received when the person had fallen into a trance. Though conscious, the person apparently was so absorbed by the vision received during the trance as to be oblivious to all else around him.—Ac 10:9-17; 11:5-10; 22:17-21;

6) Angelic messengers were used many times to transmit the divine messages. (Heb 2:2) In fact such messengers played a larger part in the transmission of information than is at times apparent.

Thus, whereas the Law given to Moses is presented as spoken by God, both Stephen and Paul show that God used his angels in transmitting that legal code. (Ac 7:53; Ga 3:19) Since the angels spoke in Jehovah’s name, the message they presented could therefore properly be called “the word of Jehovah.”—Ge 22:11, 12, 15-18; Zec 1:7, 9.

No matter what the particular means was used to transmit the messages, all parts of the Scriptures would be of the same quality, all of them being inspired, or “God-breathed.” The writing style is only the difference – the message and theme of the Bible remained the same from Genesis to Revelation. So we can rest assure that the Bible truly is the Word of God.

As for what you said below:

This is the problem I see with those who take the bible literally.

You are correct – and most of the time critics of the Bible get into this kind of problems. Without understanding the text, it's meaning in relation to the context and how it relates to other parts of the Bible, they will automatically assume/declare that the Bible contradicts itself. All it takes is a little research and a careful study to arrive at the correct meaning. The original text also helps in understanding the meaning of a passage. And of course God’s holy spirit (which he readily gives to those who ask).

Let's take for example “hellfire” – this exact word does not appear in the Bible yet it is believed by many to exist because of the words “lake of fire”. As I’ve already explained in my previous post – such a literal place does not exist.

cont...

[edit on 1-7-2010 by edmc^2]

....

Here’s where the confusion came from:

The word “hell” is a mistranslation of the Greek word “Hades” (Heb: Sheol) – literally means “pit, gravedom”. Gehena was also mistranslated into “hell” – but Gehena in Bible times is a dumped yard in the Valley of Hinnom where garbage and bodies of dead criminals/animals were dumped and burned. The fire was constantly maintained by a supply of sulfur. Thus anything that is thrown in Gehena (lake of fire) was completely burned never to be recovered. Interesting to note also are the maggots and worms in there – anything that ends up on the sides of the dump yard are eaten by these worms. So in those days if a dead body in thrown in there, they understood it as not deserving a proper burial – unwanted. When Jesus used this location – Gehena – the people understood what he meant – figuratively speaking – anyone who is thrown in the “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” will forever be destroyed, will never be resurrected – thus it is called the second death (Rev 21:8). And no they are not tortured as many believed – they just seize to exist.

Now if you study the Bible you will notice that it also contains:

Historic, symbolic, prophetic and figurative passages (example book of Revelation). It also contains illustrations.

As for interpretation, the Bible interprets itself (2Pet 1:20, 21).

To prove my point here’s a quick test: What is the meaning or the interpretation of Jesus words here at Matthew 13:24, 25, 37-39?

Please let me know when you figure it out.

Ty,
Edmc2

reply to post by edmc^2


In all seriousness though....

Even though it says these things...you are still placing faith that the person saying it is inspired by God is truth. It still falls into 'belief' and 'faith' in what another man is telling you.

Does that sound like a perfect plan for a Perfect God to get a devine message to the people .

Man can lie, has personal and political agendas, can be deceived, can be disillusioned, can misinterpret, can distort a thought due to pride and greed of Earthly matters.

To think that God, above all things who understands how distorted ways of flesh can be....would count on man...to rely, on other men.

You say your putting your trust in God....but really...you are placing your trust in those men that wrote those words. You are placing your faith, in what is of flesh.

To think this was Gods plan....makes no sense. We are warned constantly how men live for Earthly things (land, lust, riches, pride, ect) and all of those things are evident in the men that wrote the Bible, mainly in the OT. Its all about Earthly things.....land, desires, temples, bloodlines, one being better then the other, special people, all Earthly concerns.

Then Jesus comes along...with a changed tune to the song....and they killed him for it. This says so much to me of how wrong the ways of the OT were and how Jesus was killed for speaking against their ways of Earthly things and desires of things of flesh.

Jesus comes along, and talks of temples built without hands....about the body being a temple, about the kingdom being within us, he taught OUTSIDE of the Earthly buildings and taught amongst life/nature, he taught to love each other and to rid of pride.

The OT is a huge battle between family. A huge battle over a piece of land. A battle over a 'better' bloodline. PRIDE is pouring out of the OT.

reply to post by edmc^2

The answer is the writers themselves admitted that what they wrote was “inspired by God”

Admitted is the wrong word here. Fabricated would be more accurate. There has never been a shred of evidence verifying their statement that they were inspired by anything other than their own very limited human wisdom. The Bible shows this, it is self-contradictory and flawed because it has a vast array of authors all conveying their interpretation of the God they believed in.

the letter actually belongs to the businessman because the thoughts were his.

Big difference here and that is that no one can prove the business man even exists. Also the business man is supposedly a supernatural being living in the sky who has, evidently, told these authors quite a few self-contradictory stories.

Because no non-human agent can be found or is evident there is no reason to take the authors at their word that the Bible is divinely inspired, especially because the Bible is an incoherent mess. If the Bible is the Word of God than God is either an evil deceiver or an idiot.

I could write a book and claim it to be the Word of God, or to be inspired by Goblins, Satan, angels, aliens, etc. Simply making the claim DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. We must test the book that is claimed to be divine in order to determine if it lives up to that description. The Bible self-refutes, it is obvious to any reasoning being that this book isn't the perfect word of God, its not even coherent.

the 66 books are in harmony with each other – as if ONE Book.

There are often dozens of contradictions even in one book of the Bible. The book is as far from in harmony as any I've ever read. If this had been a novel it would have been rejected. I honestly have to wonder if you've ever sat down to read your Bible all the way through. I assure you it reads exactly the way it should - as a set of bronze age myths scribbled down by primitive bigots.

they will automatically assume/declare that the Bible contradicts itself.

The Bible directly contradicts itself IN CONTEXT. Case in point, God's mercy is supposed to be all but eternal - Exodus - God revokes mercy and decides to punish innocent Egyptian children slaughtering them wholesale in an act of genocide after repeatedly hardening Pharaoh's heart. If you read this out of context you might miss the part where God DELIBERATELY hardens the Pharaoh's heart to PREVENT Pharaoh from releasing the Hebrews.

In context the Bible is even worse than out of it. That is why I suggest to any and all people who call themselves Christians that they should read the Bible in its entirety. Any grown human being who can read through the entire Bible and remain faithful to the evil non-existent deity character in that book should really seek help.


[edit on 1-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Interesting point of view Leo, but i have a quick question for you.

Do you faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? If you do, where do you based it from?

Do you believe his words? That his words is the Truth!

ty,
edmc2

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Exactly, thank you LV. You stated the point I was getting at with my questions. Anything man tries to bring through from the other side, runs the risk of tainting it with his or her own thoughts and feelings thus changing it to fit the physical perspective that person has.

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

Interesting point of view Leo, but i have a quick question for you.

Do you faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? If you do, where do you based it from?

Do you believe his words? That his words is the Truth!

ty,
edmc2

Another question. Why not ask if a person has faith in what is within them? Why teach people that someone else is our only hope?

No wonder humanity is in the shape it`s in. We are taught that our faith needs to be in someone other than within oneself. Faith needs to be within, not without.


[edit on 1-7-2010 by FiatLux]