Israel's Wall in the West Bank

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

it is relevant to understand that, in a two state situation, this wall would act as a border.
Act as a border while not located on the border ...

Well, it depends. If the reached agreement will state that the green line is the border than the Palestinians will destroy the wall in one week.

And in a 'one state' situation, this wall would still stand in a middle of single country and create enclaves.

I don't think 'one state' situation is possible.

It will never be a guarantee of any safety for the jewish Israeli population unless they starts considering its construction and its existence is part of broader problem no one dared to address.
Because you need ultimately to take into consideration all aspects of the middle east issue and everyone concerned should consider a minimal amount of self-criticism.

Agreed. But it is important to understand that the Jews that live in the west bank are infact more safe with the barrier. And this is not to justify it's existence, but it's easy to understand why the Israelis may see it as a problem solver.

Speaking of the prevention of immigration, I guess that for African refugees, Israel looks more like a destination of choice that the Palestinian territory or any other neighbouring country experiencing the joys of religiously infused wars.

Yes, this well might be the case. But if Islam is all that they are afraid of, why not head south?
Basically everything southern to Sudan and Eritrea is not Islamic.

I'm quite sure that you know about the way the immigrants and the Ethiopian Jews are being treated in Israel atm. They wouldn't be demonstrating as they do now if everything was perfect.

Sad but truth.
That said, Israel is no different from any other country.
Tell me where do you live, and I show you minorities protesting because they are not being treated as they expect.

Once Israel has made peace with itself, it can probably consider extending it to its neighbours as well.

It is very hard for a country to "make peace with itself" as you say. All the minorities need to mix together in order to become a unified society, this can take generations.
To make peace with neighbour countries is a lot easier. Israel already has a peace agreement with Jordan and Egypt. Peace with the Palestinians will follow (soon I hope).

But given that most people only consider the advantages and benefits of that structure, that perspective needed to be shown as well.

I don't agree. Try Google search. I think you will have search very hard to find some advantages or benefits of the barrier.

What I find the most surreal, is the separated roads for Palestinians and Israelis, which is a by product of the wall itself.

I find this segregation very disturbing, but IMO it is a product of fear, not the wall.
Not unjustified fear:

a reply to: MaxMech

Just one comment about your reply :
It's always difficult not to consider the interest of a publisher according to it's origins, without pointing the finger at the origins of the individuals. If goyims can't criticize Israel without considerations about anti-semitism, why could jewish people publish on the middle east without raising some questions about their zionist interests ?

In the case of PEW research center :

First director : Donald S. Kellermann (2004-2010)
Current director : Donald Kimelman
Current President : Michael Dimock
...

In the case of that particular study, PEW themselves admit that due to the conditions in which the survey was taken, the Palestinian territories display the highest margin of errors of all countries used for the poll (6.3%).
Why say that 35% of the womans think womans should not be allowed to choose to not wear a veil, when you could say that 65% of the womans agree that the islamic veil is a matter of personal choice ... Ah! rhetoric ...

Also, I'm just not sure the Palestinians consider the Jews as 'civilians'. Civilian - military - settlers, their all Kosher invaders from the most common Palestinian perspective.
The most embarrassing thing about this survey, is that the Palestinians do not appear to be more religious nuts than the population of most Islamic countries involved in the poll ... Or to put it in other words, that all Islamic countries in general tend to display some rather high levels of zealous religious considerations.
This is a point of view I, sadly, share.

Among all the Muslims in the world, the Palestinians are one of the few ones to have a permanent and righteous cause to fight for. They don't need to put their religion in the balance. Or then, it is because their opponents also uses the religious question to justify its practices that they feel entitled to do so.

I strongly support the two state solution as well and maybe, the stretch of land between the wall and the green line could be used as some sort of DMZ at first until the situation cools down. For the settlers in the enclaves, their behaviour, and the upcoming policies of the new government Bibi just put in place ... that's another topic.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

So if a wall could be built around the ISIS brigade, to protect the rest of the middle east, it would be wrong? I wonder what real Muslims think about this? Those being beheaded, shot at, raped, burnt to death, those Muslims.

a reply to: pikestaff

Saudi Arabia considered such a structure at the time, I don't know what the current status is.

Saudi Arabia Is Building A 600-Mile 'Great Wall' To Shield Itself From ISIS

Once again, this is totally useless against 'lone-wolf' jihadist from the Saudi side of the thing.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Just one comment about your reply :
It's always difficult not to consider the interest of a publisher according to it's origins, without pointing the finger at the origins of the individuals. If goyims can't criticize Israel without considerations about anti-semitism, why could jewish people publish on the middle east without raising some questions about their zionist interests ?

In the case of PEW research center :

First director : Donald S. Kellermann (2004-2010)
Current director : Donald Kimelman
Current President : Michael Dimock

So you basically emphasizing the fact that you are no better than those who seem to think that every critic of Israeli policy is an anti-semite. If this practice is acceptable by you, then I suppose I will no longer see you criticize it... well enough.

And for the record, Dimock is English and Kellermann is German. Only Kimelman is actually Jewish.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

I actually don't even see the names you mentioned in the survey...

www.pewforum.org...

originally posted by: MaxMech
a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

So you basically emphasizing the fact that you are no better than those who seem to think that every critic of Israeli policy is an anti-semite. If this practice is acceptable by you, then I suppose I will no longer see you criticize it... well enough.

No, I acknowledge the fact that the only acceptable and most common understanding of what antisemism is, is criticism of Israel. And you'd better not criticize anti-Semitism because that would mean you are a nazi ...
Do you get how silly and hypocrite that kind of argumentation is ?

originally posted by: MaxMech
And for the record, Dimock is English and Kellermann is German. Only Kimelman is actually Jewish.

I don't wish prove/disprove the jewishness of an individual, I let you consider if it is relevant and applicable or not. Isn't that possible for an English or a German to be Jewish ?



You displayed ... no picture, only illustrations. Why is that ? Can't you find a picture of sniper shooting at its target above the wall as your drawing seems to suggest. Or is because practically, the IDF badge is always too obvious on the shoulder of guy ?

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

No, I acknowledge the fact that the only acceptable and most common understanding of what antisemism is, is criticism of Israel. And you'd better not criticize anti-Semitism because that would mean you are a nazi ...
Do you get how silly and hypocrite that kind of argumentation is ?

Nope, you very clearly stated that the fact that there are people who see an anti semite in every critic of Israeli policy, gives you the excuse to do the same, thus confirming you are not any better:

"If goyims can't criticize Israel without considerations about anti-semitism, why could jewish people publish on the middle east without raising some questions about their zionist interests ?"

And no, criticizing Israel is not the only acceptable and most common understanding of what antisemism is. Maybe among ignorant bigots, it is.

I don't wish prove/disprove the jewishness of an individual, I let you consider if it is relevant and applicable or not. Isn't that possible for an English or a German to be Jewish ?

You are the one who brought this up. I have no interest of scientists religion or family name, only his findings (not to mention that the names you presented don't have anything to do with the survey).

You displayed ... no picture, only illustrations. Why is that ? Can't you find a picture of sniper shooting at its target above the wall as your drawing seems to suggest. Or is because practically, the IDF badge is always too obvious on the shoulder of guy ?

Wow... nice theory you have there...
I guess I will have to explain the illustration with words, as you clearly didn't understand it.
The barrier is protecting the cars on the road. It's height and distance from Palestinian buildings, is preventing from snipers to shoot the road. Even if there was no wall, why would you expect a sniper to photo himself in a way you would be able to recognize that he is a Palestinian, and his targets. Did you ever see a bank robber or a serial killer taking a picture of him self during the deed and uploading it to the Internet?

I like walls, they keep out intruders, mostly, cats, dogs, shield me from the wind, rain, sun, keep my roof up, keep rivers in check, sometimes, keep snow off of railroads, sometimes, and roads, something to lean against when a bit tired, graffiti artists just love them!

originally posted by: MaxMech
a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Wow... nice theory you have there...
I guess I will have to explain the illustration with words, as you clearly didn't understand it.
The barrier is protecting the cars on the road. It's height and distance from Palestinian buildings, is preventing from snipers to shoot the road. Even if there was no wall, why would you expect a sniper to photo himself in a way you would be able to recognize that he is a Palestinian, and his targets. Did you ever see a bank robber or a serial killer taking a picture of him self during the deed and uploading it to the Internet?

So you only have cartoons to back your considerations.
I'll have to use the same level of argumentation then.



For the rest of your reply, I consider as hypocrisy the claims of someone who is not shy of doing the classic middle-east pro-zionist thread rant while he originlay tried to make a point about the fact that threads should remain specific subject centric.

originally posted by: MaxMech
a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

The above clip is not related to the west bank barrier in any way...

a reply to: Grock

I used to support Israel 100% on this thread and in general......Not anymore. They need to stop being so inclusive.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

LOL what is this??
Nice strategy - when have nothing to say, go full retard