Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
It almost seems like you all dont want to break through the mysticism. I see person after person just adding a differnt layer of crap. Why does everything has to be magical..

Get permission to end your life cycle? reincarnated buddah?

There is a logical explination for everything.. cant people just try that first? then maybe you can fly off on some random tangent about how religious leaders maintain their power with lies.

Logic really has no place for me, and thats saying something Im a scientist lol Science and logic are great at explaining what we can see, it is what we cant see but feel and utterly know is there that logic plays no part in. I dont think enligtenment is magical, its just a state of being, an awarness but its definatly not magic.

Yes I do totally believe in reincarnation, we have all been here before and most probably will return.

The seeking permission to end your life cycle is something Ive not come across before, but I can see how this would work. You would come to a decision maybe prior to returning that you did want this to be your last incarnation , and then as you remembered this through awarness and enligtenment you would seek permission to do just that from possibly spirit guides or your higher self. Im not sure who youd actually ask this of, but I assume the fact you were wanting to ask a question such as this would mean youd instinctively know who to ask. The divine creator I guess.

Ahh, hehe, this is gonna be interesting, :-).

Originally posted by Wertdagf
I will wage war on everyones ignorance.

On what authority do you feel you have the right to be so militant on any one persons belief?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Your silly little worlds of praying and ignorant worship cannot exist anymore.

Well, i'm not religious, though i respect all religions, and individuals belief. You seem to be lacking in that, for someone so 'advanced'.

Prayers & worship will continue for as long as any single person needs them, and this freedom of choice is the way of goodness. All can make up their own mind, in their own time.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
That is the poison in this world... Its locked so many people in their tiny cages that they meditate to their crystals in.

Crystals aren't my thing. However i do know they are excellant for concentrating energy, for example.

Anyhow, the poison of the world is actually folks having such a huge ego that they feel they need to save all others, while being blind to their onw crap. Now, this can be a religous nut, or perhaps someone who wants the 'free the ignorant' from religion, but in actual fact is being excatly the same.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
IF you only knew the pain this ignorance causes. Your future self is giving me permission to yell at you.

Hold on here buddy. This is your ego talkin big time! :-) . Don't presume to know what's best for others. My future self? Sounds new age crap you're speaking. I have no future self. I'm here now. This is all there is.

'The past is gone, an energetic imprint on the mind. The future has not happened yet. All there is is now' ~ Eckhart Tolle.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
These people are coming here for real awsners and help... what they get is a stream of new-age crap.

As opposed to you losing the rag and dissing all on here?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Instead of jesus telling everyone to be baptised or go to hell, we have hologram souls that flip polaritys and if you dont meditate to kryon you will have a negitive incarnation.

You've lost me here bro. Take it easy though. Within spirituality, ALL experiences & opinions are equally valid. There is much common ground though.

take care
Wayne

[edit on 11-1-2009 by reiki]

This thread had some very good posts and fun contributors. I hope one poster can't derail it all and turn this into some snipey little debate.

It is his right to think whatever he likes, it is his right to judge whomever he likes. We can choose to just smile and not respond to it and keep the discussion on track.

Or maybe the discussion was fizzling anyway and it doesn't matter. It was a good thread though.

I didn't read all the posts but, in my opinion enlightenment is when you realize that there is nothing to worry about. There's no need for crystals or OOBE's or any of that stuff, it is as simple as no fear. And once you lose your fear you automatically open the door for love. And just because someone is enlightened doesn't mean they are better or know more, it is just a different path they have chosen. There are two paths, the path of fear and self and the path of love and others.

reply to post by cancerian42


Good point. Part of it is choosing a path, but a lot of it seems to be "grace". I have a sister who has followed a strict path for 3 decades, 2 hours of meditation everyday, strict vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drink, etc... and she is still afraid of death, and she has never had any "epiphanies" of a profound nature to make her more at ease.

In contrast I have never lived a "clean" lifestyle, I have always done all the things the new age folks are not supposed to do (smoking, drinking, eating meat, carousing etc...) and I have never been all that good at regular meditation either. But yet add odd times things will just "happen".

Just goes to show you life isn't fair, it just is.

P.S. – Wertdagf I think you would really enjoy this little article on Shugendo, the art of enlightenment through self-mummification. Enjoy.
blog.japundit.com...

Enlightment for me is just to be and love....

but having said that isnt probably enough because enlightment is also the knowledge that your post will be deleted if it stays at one line aargh...

reply to post by Sonya610


It sounds to me like she hasn't really chosen a path at all. It isn't as simple as "are you afraid of death", though. Because you can be afraid of the unknown, yet still choose to overcome that fear anyways and continue down the path of love. Or you can choose to continue fearing for yourself and disregard others. Some people have deep, hidden fears that they tend to deny they even have. This denial is just another step on the path of fear and self.

Enlightenment isn't necessarily about not having anything to worry about, but more so realizing the fine seperation inbetween "responsibility" and spirituality. If you can weigh out the two then you have an awesome odd of being very enlightened. Reality and enlightenment coexist but do the math and figure which is more important. Our perception of reality is what builds this physical block that we live in. Break that barrier and you might just turn into a ball of light and dissappear as a good friend once said.

=)

On what authority do you feel you have the right to be so militant on any one persons belief? Well, i'm not religious, though i respect all religions, and individuals belief. You seem to be lacking in that, for someone so 'advanced'. Prayers & worship will continue for as long as any single person needs them, and this freedom of choice is the way of goodness. All can make up their own mind, in their own time. Crystals aren't my thing. However i do know they are excellant for concentrating energy, for example. Anyhow, the poison of the world is actually folks having such a huge ego that they feel they need to save all others, while being blind to their onw crap. Now, this can be a religous nut, or perhaps someone who wants the 'free the ignorant' from religion, but in actual fact is being excatly the same. Hold on here buddy. This is your ego talkin big time! :-) . Don't presume to know what's best for others. My future self? Sounds new age crap you're speaking. I have no future self. I'm here now. This is all there is. As opposed to you losing the rag and dissing all on here?

DO you respect religions that find it ok to kill another as a sacrafice? Do you support religions that degrade females? Your mind doesnt allow you to see past tomarrow, that is a pity. Prayer and worship will exist as long as people accept they will never understand, which is what faith was never intended to lead to.

To say you support all religions is a very ignorant statement. There is only one anwser to the origin and design of reality. That isnt ego.. that is the truth. Do you really think letting people sit in there bubbles is going to make the world a better place? I plan to pop them all.

Originally posted by cancerian42
It sounds to me like she hasn't really chosen a path at all. It isn't as simple as "are you afraid of death", though.

Well you are right, it isn't as simple as "are you afraid of death". In her case she (and her husband) follow a very specific spiritual path out of India. It is fairly old and has lots of writings and philosophy.

One of the things they work on in their daily meditations is focusing on the third eye and trying to pull them soul to that point so they can easily exit the body when they die (apparently if you aren't all snugged up there in your third eye it might be a problem, or so they say). They are obsessed with diet and such because they believe if they live pure vegetarian lives and do the prayer thing they can escape the world of birth and rebirth faster, and they be freed from the wheel of kharma and not have to be reborn so many times (because life is so hard etc...).

She is in her mid fifties, her husband is in his 60's. He had a major heart attack a couple of years go and she told me it really shook her up, because she realized "they were getting older and well...death was becoming more of a reality".

How can you meditate for hours every day and focus on preparing your soul to exit your body and NOT realize death is a true reality? How can you devote your life to ridding yourself of "bad karma" in the hope of escaping the material world, and NOT think about death? I mean how is that possible? What the heck are they preparing for?

See that just shocked me. I didn't say it, but I felt like saying "are you kidding me? you have been preparing for it for the last 30 years and yet somehow the idea it might happen is a shocker???".

It just made me wonder what on EARTH does she really think about? And believe me, she is fanatical about her path and her beliefs and all that. But it seems even the most OBVIOUS parts of the whole thing just don't really register with her at all.

PS -- when I said she meditates 2 hours a day, she believes she must spend 10% of her time in meditation, so its actually like 2.5 hours every morning, in a closet (because it is dark and peaceful). I mean it seems like if you are doing it THAT much, even if you aren't doing it right eventually SOMETHING would have to happen. By sheer luck if nothing else.



[edit on 11-1-2009 by Sonya610]

and how do we know when we have achieved it?

If ya have to ask then there's still a ways to go...

If I were you I would stop asking this question, buckle up and just enjoy the journey. It gets you there much faster.

When you realise that it isn't a journey and that the place you started is where your destination is, then you may have some insight.

Meantime just lighten up

It is like the flicking of a light switch. There is a reason so many mystics use "light" as an analogy.

I agree with Sonya, if you arent sure if it happened or not, it didnt.

You will know.

Originally posted by Sonya610
I mean it seems like if you are doing it THAT much, even if you aren't doing it right eventually SOMETHING would have to happen. By sheer luck if nothing else.

"Trying" is the opposite of the mental condition required for enlightenment to occur.

Meditation and koans etc, are designed to make your mind "give up" or surrender.

Some people have very strong minds and keep trying for the whole of their lives without ever realizing that the trying isnt the point.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
It is like the flicking of a light switch. There is a reason so many mystics use "light" as an analogy.

I agree with Sonya, if you arent sure if it happened or not, it didnt.

You will know.

I agree and disagree at the same time. Only within the last 12 days have I actually expierenced enlightenment at a level I've never achieved before. As though it is something I have looked to achieve for many years, it's only became apparent to me within the past days how enlightened I have become.

To start off the reason why I disagree is because it doesn't happen at the flick of a lightbulb. However....

The reason why I do agree, is that you will soon to feel yourself ascending from what plane you exist on.

To do so requires belief in more than what is considered "reality" as we know it. The belief in that when you die the nothing paradox is not a factor. To believe that when you die this incarnation is only a level of the next you are to achieve.

For some, I can say though, enlightment may resemble something of a lightbulb clicking on or off but it is not in the sense of the speed of the electricity traveling to the lightbulb. You must achieve this state of "concious" through vigorous challenges, such as defeating the nothing paradox. And as in nothing I mean when you look from your eyeballs to the monitor, there is oxygeon and carbon dioxide. The software being our concept of reality, or body being the hardware means that to believe when the body seizes to supplement the software(brain) you become part of the nothing paradox ie, no white no black no before no after. nothing.

When you have succesfully eliminated the belief of the nothing paradox then you have achieved the first level of enlightenment.


What may come afterwards, may be a series of events provoked by many different things that you see hear or feel. As I previouslly stated that all life exists as one(read some Richard Bach books, I reccomend Running from Safety) you will soon realize there is no difference besides the physical idea between me and a fish swimming in a river, or the hawk flying in the sky, or a wolf with it's pack.

Enlightenment indeed, when achieved, is most definetly noticeable. However. The levels of enlightenment only progress with your belief in it, and at the final level you may gain what is known as nirvana.

=)

reply to post by Revolution-2012


I dont mean to argue against your view. I am just presenting a different one.

I see it like this. You may wake up in the middle of the night and see a shadowy something in the corner of your room and at first, think it is a monster. Then, after observing it for a while, may rule out a monster, but still not be totally sure what it is. Then, suddenly, you realize it is your skis that you had brought in from the garage. Your "enlightenment" the true and real awareness of what that thing you are looking at is, is sudden, in an instant. One moment you do not know for sure, only that you are looking at something, then suddenly, like a light coming on, you are truly and fully aware without question what you are looking at.

I would say that all realizations are sudden, although there may be a process of questioning that leads up to the realization. And, once you have a realization, all doubt is removed. You know.



[edit on 11-1-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


In that metaphor you have truely described what it is to have enlightenment. And in this I can honestly say I just very recently discovered it after intakeing vital proof that there is a world outside of what this shell is we live in... it started after my moms death(11/12/08). I went into a steep cave, and crawled out, certain things such as dreams that I beckoned for whatever froce their is, I recieved answers(from my dead mother).

I disregarded it to a good extent, rueling out(in, taking it in as I believed it could be true) the 10% probability there is the "nothing paradox". Science.

I watched a documentary on National Geographic Channel, it was about a lady named Pam Reynolds. She described very intricate events which we're into any scientists terms *impossible*.

I proceeded to devolop a philophsy which I am continue to change and develop everyday that include insight into the being of the world/Earth. I feel my connect.... All though I wish I could feel everything, the world's pain, the world's pure.

I hope to ascend to a point where I can achieve full disconnection of my body and feel the reality of which I reside in.... I hope to be able to come back with that knowledge, and walk knowing of what I have expierenced...


I don't know if it'll take a year, or two, or three, or 10, but one day I will walk in harmony.




[edit on 12-1-2009 by Revolution-2012]

i think this book explains enlightenment better than i could do (well i don't know anything about it. just guessing) www.ibiblio.org...

Enlightenment is an experience that cannot be expressed through vocabulary. One has to experience it to know what it is.

reply to post by ExamineAllViews


Well-done …this is maybe the truth about the idea of enlightenment. The rest maybe only speculation.

Kacou.

Enlightenment. what is it and when do we know when we have achieved it. Personally, I was born enlightened. It is my true nature and the feeling is extacy -I purr. I was aware of my mission at a very young age and completed my assignments through ever growing violent opposition . Its been a few years now that I finally cracked and justified hatred filled my cells - the battle within forced me into isolation and I am just coming out of it - I am detached, ready to go, but still here in my body. I feel great power inside. I stumbled upon this article from David Icke's website who describes tangible stages one would go trough and I recognise them as being familiar.