Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

reply to post by MischeviousElf

When you stare into an abyss long enough the abyss will stare back at you." -Nietzsche
...Or the McDonald's bag will.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf


Okay so cross legged, hands on knees thumb and forefinger together, or classic Buddha Mundra with one palm on top of another thumbs touching into a upside down V by your naval.

So now back straight, tongue touching tip of mouth just behind the teeth, head bent slightly forward, gaze focused on just past the tip of your nose at nothing or even a flame or picture, object, as Lama said laughing could be a Mcdonalds Box does not matter.

This posture in Tibetan Buddhism is known as the "7" pointed Vajrahana as it through the chi or energy/wind bodies in your subtle body allows the right energies to flow to your mind and reduces distraction, ego, ignorance etc.

Breath and just don't think, just be, don't gaze through what you are looking at, don't analyse it just keep your focus intently on it, one place, when mind wanders let it go, come back and just focus again, just keep doing this, if you start going fuzzy or spaced out again focus on the object awake, look but don't analyse or give any meaning to it.

As your thoughts and focus drift, appear just come back and be there not thinking "ive got to meditate on nothing just look" allow that to go away just look again.

Eventually you will merge with the object or the barriers between you and it will break down

The observer becomes the observed.

A very good meditation according to Lama for breaking seperation of "this" "that" "there" "here" "me" "you"

As even if you have the right emotions and compassion to want to help others and see them as equal, if you don't teach your senses this, or break the habits and pathways of conditioned there and here, you will never get to the place where automatically in everything you see "one".

Which as many have said and supported here is the answer to the OP's Question.

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 3-2-2009 by MischeviousElf]

Brillliant, thanks for this wonderful post. I think this will take some practise, but this is good, it takes me beyond opening the chakras and feeling their energy. I saw a green eye, Im not sure if this was breaking the seperation barrier but its a start.

Thank you.

reply to post by Mr Green
I have been late in responding to you Ms Green, for this Iapologise. I am not impolite and would never ignore your kind response to the question I posed 'is love an emotion'.However the following evening just before coming online I was thinking things over and something happened to me.May I also say that I have never read Eckhart Tolle I heard about him from a friend who talked a little about him and offered me his book but I declined.I have had my fill of books I decided some time ago to stop! get back to basics and simply concentrate on self remembering. When you mentioned the 'silent watcher' I was reminded of the original Maister Eickhart and his 'companion'. So anyway Ms Green may I recount what happened and perhaps you can tell me is this the 'now'? I have written my of my experience in the 'third person' somehow it seemed easier.Thankyou kindly for calling me here.

reply to post by midicon

Midicon sat and reflected. He thought about the ‘now’, he thought about the nature of the ‘now’. He thought about how it was here, had always been here, he saw how it could be no other way.
He thought about the ‘beginning’ and of how it had begun. He thought about ‘I am’, he saw the necessity of ‘I am’ and how the creation of ‘I am’ had created division. He saw how division had created beginning.
He thought about what he had written and the words he had sent out. He had been calling, wake up, think, pay attention and he saw now, he had been calling to himself.
He thought about love, and the nature of love. He saw how ‘I am’ tried to hold love, tried to keep love, tried to bridge his separation from love, with attachment to things, impermanent things. He saw how ‘I am’ never realized the impermanence of himself.
He thought about the ‘companion’, he thought about the ‘dear old friend’, he thought about the ‘silent watcher’ and he saw how they were all one and the same.
Midicon’s thoughts seemed to go round in a circle. He thought about the ‘now’, he thought about the stillness of the ‘now’. He thought about the space in between, between here and there. He saw there was no space between here and there. He thought about movement. He thought about non movement, he saw how movement had created division. He saw how division had created ‘I am’, he saw how ‘I am’ had created division.
He thought about all the words that he had written, his every gesture, every sound, ever since his own beginning he had been calling to himself.
He thought about love, and the nature of love. He thought about ‘conditional love’, ‘unconditional love’, ‘self love’ and ‘real love’. He saw how love could not be compartmentalized, categorized, divided or subdivided. Love would always be love.
He thought about the ‘old friend’, the ‘dear friend’ the one who always has been here. He was his ‘old friend’ and your ‘old friend’ he had always been the same.
Midicon’s thoughts went round again, but as he did so he became aware of something, something outside of himself, outside of his attention. There was an ‘approach’ a sense of something coming near, but he did not turn to it. An insight, an intuition, something gained from knowledge perhaps, told him that any diversion of attention, any turning towards this ‘approach’ would immediately dispel it. He ignored it but within him there was a spirit of acceptance and welcome.
He thought about the ‘now’ and the timeless nature of the ‘now’. He saw how time had been born of movement and how time creates division, how division creates ‘I am’ and how ‘I am’ creates division. He saw the necessity of ‘I am’ for the purpose of reflection and how the nature of reflection would facilitate awareness. He saw the endless circle of things.
He thought about himself and he thought about the world. He saw that they were both reflections of each other. What he gave to the world, the world gave to him and what the world gave to him, he gave to the world.
He thought about love and the nature of love. He saw how love can never be defined. He saw how words could not describe the ultimate truth of love and how words can’t describe anything in itself. All he could say about love was, love is.
Midicon thought about the ‘old friend’ the ‘dear friend’ the ‘companion’ and as he did so he once again became aware of something, something outside of himself or inside of himself, he could not say which, but this time the approach was followed by a ‘touch’. He did not feel fear, he had not thought of fear, fear is born of thought and his thoughts had been elsewhere. He felt warmth, he felt recognition and friendship, Midicon felt love. He was embraced by love, he was uplifted by love and he was filled with love. There was no self surrender, or annihilation of self, instead there was freedom, elation and joy. Midicon was love and love was Midicon. He was transfixed by love, he was transported by love and he transcended. There was only love and love was eternal.
Some time later Midicon returned to himself. He did not know how much time had passed. He had not expected this, nor had he sought this, if he had it would not have happened. He ‘composed’ himself. His face felt warm, he touched it and it was wet, he realized he had been crying, was still crying. The mighty Midicon, all knowing, self knowing, impregnable fortress that is Midicon had been weeping like a child. He could still feel the ‘old friend’ behind him, beside him, all around him but he did not turn to him, he knew he would be overcome. For the remainder of the evening Midicon tried to keep his thoughts away from what had occurred. Any thought of it, any attention to it seemed to result in tears. He did not know why this was but he sensed or knew that a change had been wrought in him. Eventually Midicon retired and went to bed. He fell fast asleep, and in his sleep he dreamed of death and rebirth.
For the next three days Midicon could not think of this event without tears filling his eyes. He tried to speak of it to someone but had to stop and turn away ashamed of his tears, he could only say ‘something has happened to me’. A week has passed now and the impact has finally lessened. He can now turn his thoughts to it and try and make sense of it. Perhaps in some way he was not ready for this.

reply to post by midicon


Hello midicon Thank you for your reply. I will read it and reply to you when I get back home as I cant give it the concentration it needs at work.

Its nice to hear from you. Actually I was only thinking of you yesterday and how you still hadnt told me if you thought love was an emotion or not...and here you are!!

Speak later. MG

Originally posted by midicon
He was embraced by love, he was uplifted by love and he was filled with love. There was no self surrender, or annihilation of self, instead there was freedom, elation and joy. Midicon was love and love was Midicon. He was transfixed by love, he was transported by love and he transcended. There was only love and love was eternal.

I have very much enjoyed your posts in this thread, but that was so simple and in it's simplicity quite beautiful. Thank you, you lifted me, just a little, but enough.

reply to post by midicon




Midicon that has to be one of the most heart warming and emotional posts Ive ever read. Its wonderful absolutely wonderful. As I read it I had to fight the tears away, its so honest, open and full of love.

You describe love not as an emotion or an energy, you describe it as only it can be described...as love.

Im so glad you found this thread, reading your post has now filled me with a renewed want to also release such love within me.

Thank you so much for that.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

Hello KilgoreTrout
Thank you for your kind words. It was not easy for me to express myself so openly. You in turn have ‘lifted’ me with your reply.

reply to post by Mr Green

My dear Ms Green, I suppose in a way I have answered my own question. Perhaps something within me replied to it in a way I could not have expected. I did not know what your response would be when I related this experience to you, my words seemed somehow inadequate but your reply was so kind that I am lost for words. Thankyou Ms Green.

Originally posted by midicon
reply to post by Mr Green

 

My dear Ms Green, I suppose in a way I have answered my own question. Perhaps something within me replied to it in a way I could not have expected.

Midicon can I ask you how long you have been feeling as if a part of you wished to become awakened? You joined ATS very recently , but have you been searching for this love you now have felt for a while?

I think its wonderful that you had the courage to put what is a very personal experience on thread. You are an inspiration to me and I thank you for finding this thread and posting in it.

reply to post by Mr Green


Ms Green, I have always had a passion for the ‘mysteries’ and ‘awakened individuals but in truth I have never regarded myself as a ‘seeker’. My teenage years were filled with all the usual more ‘fanciful’ literature but as I grew older and matured so inevitably did the subject matter. I could cite a long list of authors and books but indeed my dear what would be the point in that? It would only be me trying to impress you. I did have a ‘dalliance’ with the Buddhists at one time and had a great friendship with a Sufi teacher but in all honesty I learned nothing from either. Last year I decided to put everything aside and perhaps do something so where better to start than with myself? I only came across this thread by accident really. I had seen something on Edge TV, and I’m not a great TV fan, that mentioned something about ATS and a debate going on. I can’t even remember what it was now and I never did find it but somehow I wandered in here. The word ‘enlightenment’ and the ‘now’ I suppose stirred my curiosity. I’m glad it did though as I have now had an experience I may never have had and that I hope to repeat. I have you to thank for that!
I was not aware I was searching for ‘love’ in any way although perhaps we all are at some level! Somehow something within me answered my question and it has forced me to rethink and reevaluate everything I knew. Is this not the same experience you have in the ‘now’?
The openness and honesty I see on this thread has perhaps encouraged me to respond in a similar manner! Thankyou.

Originally posted by midicon
reply to post by Mr Green

 

Last year I decided to put everything aside and perhaps do something so where better to start than with myself? I only came across this thread by accident really. I had seen something on Edge TV, and I’m not a great TV fan, that mentioned something about ATS and a debate going on. I can’t even remember what it was now and I never did find it but somehow I wandered in here. The word ‘enlightenment’ and the ‘now’ I suppose stirred my curiosity. I’m glad it did though as I have now had an experience I may never have had and that I hope to repeat. I have you to thank for that!
The openness and honesty I see on this thread has perhaps encouraged me to respond in a similar manner! Thankyou.

Midicon I feel you are exactly where you are meant to be.

May I thank you. You have shown me great courage and honesty also. Your post will probably remain my favourite of all time, which is amazing considering the amount of posts on this web site!

You were right to start with yourself, how can we embrace and understand unconditional love if we dont understand and love ourself first.

I hope you are able to repeat this experience also. I have a feeling you will.

Philosophy has taught me that the Enlightenment is dead. It is just a dialectic..in my opinion. The majority of people are stuck in this stigma of postivisim and existentialism. There is more to life and the Enlightenment is a great thing if we could ever put it into practice...theories are just DIALECTIC.

There has been no new philosophy since Plato.
‘The Enlightenment’ is not “enlightenment’.
Dialectic cannot convey the truth of enlightenment.
Enlightenment is beyond positivism.
This is the problem enlightenment poses for the enlightened.

Originally posted by antmax21
Philosophy has taught me that the Enlightenment is dead. It is just a dialectic..in my opinion. The majority of people are stuck in this stigma of postivisim and existentialism. There is more to life and the Enlightenment is a great thing if we could ever put it into practice...theories are just DIALECTIC.

I dont think enlightenment is dead at all. Infact if it were dead I think we too would be dead, dead inside, which we arnt.

Hello there mr Green
I just wanted to contribute this little gem I found to your excellent thread

Zen Biology Lesson for Enlightenment


[edit on 28-2-2009 by HulaAnglers]

reply to post by HulaAnglers


Thank you, what an excellent video. It shows exactly how it is, we are not our mind, we have mistaken form as our existance, we do need to become the silent watchers of our minds constant ramblings. These ramblings are not us.

Thank you very much for this. I hope it will help explain to some what it is we have been discussing on this thread, and just like the video says, we only become the silent watcher by not actually giving any thoughts to our thoughts.

reply to post by Mr Green


what a load of new age propaganda, its laughable looking at some of the comment people have been leaving, illuminati means enlightened ones so can you really vision george bush meditating and shaking flowers, you've been sold a load of nonsense and your eating it up like a bunch of fools.

you will never become self aware if you follow this foolish talk but you will find your way to the nearest mental hospital

and before any one jumps on me then i would tell you to take a good look at what you have been writing and ask yourself is this normal, an idealism that has no facts that is completely unfounded. You are feeding off each other when you should be seeking psychiatric help

[edit on 24-3-2009 by EvilTwin666]

reply to post by EvilTwin666

Illuminati may mean enlightened ones, but as we can see here there are many different views of what enlightenment can actually mean, although we have kind of come to a conclusion or at the least a hiatus on this thread.

Originally posted by EvilTwin666
reply to post by Mr Green

 

what a load of new age propaganda, its laughable looking at some of the comment people have been leaving, illuminati means enlightened ones so can you really vision george bush meditating and shaking flowers, you've been sold a load of nonsense and your eating it up like a bunch of fools.

Many of the teachings in this thread are from the time of Buddha, nothing new age about that.

If George Bush felt like meditating and shaking flowers Im sure hed find peace in that.

you will never become self aware if you follow this foolish talk but you will find your way to the nearest mental hospital

My awakening started in 2007, so far Ive avoided the mental hospital and I cant see me going there any day soon. To be awake does not mean we are mental or foolish.

and before any one jumps on me then i would tell you to take a good look at what you have been writing and ask yourself is this normal, an idealism that has no facts that is completely unfounded. You are feeding off each other when you should be seeking psychiatric help

You are entitled to post your thoughts so I will not jump on you.

yes I feel everything in this thread is normal and very worth while, have you taken the time to read the many enlightening posts by many members on this thread?

I dont feed off anybody, feeding off others is not really my thing, I learn and listen to others but never feed of them.

Thank you for your interest in this thread I hope you find it useful at some point.





[edit on 24-3-2009 by Mr Green]